Why Spend $700 On A Festool CT Dust Extractor?

[Steve-Rice]

I started drinking the green cool-aid about two years ago and I'm already in for a Domino DF500, the TS 55 REQ and the Carvex PS 420, not to mention an assortment of guide rails and a number of other accessories.  I'm about to purchase an ETS EC 150/3 finishing sander and I'm wondering whether an additional $700 for a CT 36 dust extractor makes good economic sense for me.

I'm extremely conscious about dust collection.  I've customized all my large machinery to connect with my 2 HP, 1 micron canister dust collector with a Super Dust Deputy. I attach all my hand held power tools (Festool included) to a standard shop vac with a HEPA filter and a Dust Deputy.  Additionally, I have a JDS AIR-TECH 750 ER hanging from the ceiling.

Admittedly, I'm almost afraid to ask this question, but given that I have a shop vac with a HEPA filter, what real benefits would a Festool dust extractor provide to justify an additional $500 to $700 expenditure?

I work exclusively in the shop, so portability is not a factor for me.  I have a remote for the shop vac on my belt, so I don't really need to plug into the CT for auto on and off with the tool.  The shop vac is rated at 168 CFM whereas the CT is rated at 137.  The only real advantage I can see is that the CT has a 71 max DB rating versus 84 DB (tested) on the shop vac.

Since I can save 10% by purchasing the CT with the ETS EC 150, I'm somewhat tempted, but I'm having a hard time justifying the expense. I guess I'm really asking for help justifying this added expense.

Part of me is tempted to forgo the CT and purchase an RO 150 to go with the ETS EC 150/3.

Any comments?

 

[Shane Holland]

I'll defer to the forum members to give you the reasons you're looking for, as not to be too much of a salesman.  [smile]

But, I did just want to remind you that 1) you get 10% off when you buy a CT with a tool like you mentioned and 2) you have 30 days to decide if the tool (in this case the CT) was worth the price. You can get feedback from others, but the 30-day money back guarantee is really the best way to decide for yourself whether the value is worth the price.

 

[Birdhunter]

The major factors in buying both a Fein and several Festool vacs are first, their low noise level and second, their overall quality.

My big box shop vacs simply screamed! They are now gone. The Fein and Festool vacs are relatively quiet and integrate with all my Festool products.

 

[Brent Shively]

Adjustable suction.
That is the main reason in your shop I see for purchasing our CT. If you plan to use the ETS EC with your shop system the suction will be to high, which will suck the sander down to the surface. This will shorten the pad and abrasive life and also make the sander jump around because it is trying to break the suction.  You will not be happy with the sander if you attach it to your current system.

Also what Shane said..

Brent

 

[Kev]

Adjustable suction.
That is the main reason in your shop I see for purchasing our CT. If you plan to use the ETS EC with your shop system the suction will be to high, which will suck the sander down to the surface. This will shorten the pad and abrasive life and also make the sander jump around because it is trying to break the suction.  You will not be happy with the sander if you attach it to your current system.

Also what Shane said..

Brent

This is absolutely critical to quality sanding results!!

 

[Steve-Rice]

Brent,

Good one!  [big grin] Now you've got me interested.  Are there standard CT settings for the various tools or do you just play with the suction adjustment until you are happy with the results?

Thanks.

 

[Brent Shively]

Brent,

Good one!  [big grin] Now you've got me interested.  Are there standard CT settings for the various tools or do you just play with the suction adjustment until you are happy with the results?

Thanks.

The only tools that I recommend adjusting the suction for is the sanders.  When using the CT with the other tools leave it cranked up.
For the finish sanders , ETS's, DTS, RTS, LS 130, turn the suction all the way down.  With the Rotex you can turn it to about half way because they have the power to over come the suction.  When Using the CT with the RAS 115.4 turn it all the way up as well.

Brent

 

[sancho57]

I noticed you said you have a shop vac.

As already been mentioned shop vacs do get loud.

Plus unless yours is different, the CT goes on and off with the tool

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Get a midi and save. 

The 26 and up are just too big for me anymore.

 

[promark747]

I already own a CT, but I'm curious: what is the advantage, if any, to having the variable suction controlled by the motor as opposed to just having a hose collar with the hole that can be rotated open/closed for more or less suction?  (One advantage might be less power consumption at low speed on a variable speed motor, but I'm more curious about whether there is an actual suction difference.)

 

[mrboult]

As Someone who has never personally owned a festool vac and just owns cheaper vacs (yes, they have auto on function) . . .
I feel the main reasons for Festool CTs are their quieter noise levels and longer life expectancy.

I'm sure other similar priced vacs might be as good a festool, but I am comparing to the £60 budget versions that I've had a few of over the last 5 years.

The cheap vacs I've had suck like hell, have cheap large bags, and do a great job. As for reduced suction I just modified my own collar valve/hole thing as has been mentioned already. But one of mine does have the same solution built into the body as a twist valve.

I've used Festool vacs and they're great, and I'm waiting for the right job to warrant a new CTL SYS. But I think you can get along fine with cheaper shop vacs out there.

 

[Motown]

Dust collection, for me, is one of the main reasons I got hooked on the green. I have asthma so having a vacuum that automatically turns on and collects dust at the source has been a game changer. The biggest difference that I can see is collection of small/fine dust particles that my Rigid can't pick up. I am trusting there is additional collection of particles that I can't see combined with Hepa filters makes for a safer environment. It is a big chunk of change so I understand where you are coming from but those benefits make it worth it for me.

 

[tjbnwi]

Simply put, the CT's work and work very well.

Tom

 

[rst]

I've literally gone through 15-20 Sears shop vacs over the years.  I now own three Feins and just bought a Midi.  That being said I've almost convinced myself that I should own a 36 auto to deal with some concrete and block cutting coming up.  Between the noise reduction and the amazing suction, either is absolutely worth the cost.  I almost forgot to add that I have three Oneida dust deputy's, the steel version sitting on old 40 gallon grease cans and absolutely lust for a V-2000.

 

[AIPDX]

1. Adjustable suction (important for sanding, too much suction = scratches)[already mentioned]
2. Lower noise.
3. Auto on/off. If you have to turn the vacuum on manually, you are bound to periodically forget to do it, and will end up in a cloud of dust. Quite annoying.
4. Older Dust Deputies were known to generate a lot of electrostatic charge which can "fry" electronics in your tools. There is a newer Dust Deputy which reportedly is better in this regard. Hopefully, you have that one.
5. Water lift. There are two characteristics to vacuums, amount of air which they can pump without resistance in the hose (measured at open air inlet, in the units of CFMs or liters/sec or m3/min), and water lift, which is a measure of the  amount of vacuum which a dust extractor can create (measured in inches or cm of water, without air flow. This parameter can be visualized as a height of a water column which a vacuum can create by sucking air out of a hose vertically immersed in water). Neither of these two characteristics is a real-life measurement because you always have a hose with resistance to air flow, and always have some air flow. CFMs and water lift are two extreme cases, with real life being in between. Air flow always drops with resistance. Vacuums with high water lift can maintain a good airflow through a wider range of resistances.  Sanders are a classical example of very high resistance to air flow. Your shop vacuum likely has half of the water lift of a dust extractor because of the different turbine design, oriented towards volume rather than water lift. 137 CFM of a Festool dust extractor (Dewalt, Bosch, and Fein extractors are similar in this regard) may not look like much compared to a $50 - $70 shop vacuum which can crank out 180 CFM, but once you connected it to a tool, a dust extractor's air flow might drop to 100 CFM, and that of a shop vac which looks great on paper and without air resistance might drop to just 50 CFM. You can hear how it drops even from how the sound of the vacuum changes with load.
6. Convenient dust collection bags, easy to seal after removal, and easy to replace.  Your shop vacuum may have dust bags, too, but it is not common, and usually they are poorly designed.
7. Dust bags do not get clogged until they are full. My shop vacuums (Ridgid and Crafstman), in contrast, require cleaning when they are about 10% full. Washable filters is a big cost saver, but the process of washing is sort of disgusting.
8. HEPA filtration. It is not only for lead. Small particles are just as bad as large for our lungs. Some shop vacs may be HEPA or nearly HEPA, but not always, and usually their parameters are given for non-HEPA filters to make them look better.
9. Cost of a dust extractor typically includes cost of a thin and relatively flexible hose, often antistatic. You cannot use 3 1/2" plastic hose with a hand tool, it is just too big and too ridgid.

For collection of dust from a table saw, which can be used with 3 1/2" or wider hose with almost no resistance, CFMs is all that matters. You will gain very little or nothing when using a dust extractor. For sanders, it is just the opposite, it is water lift. Here, the advantage of a dust extractor is significant. For many other hand tools, such as track saws or routers, you want to have both CFMs and water lift.

Finally, tools which you use also matter. If you use a tool which was not designed with dust collection in mind, you might not get a good dust collection with any vacuum.  With shop tools which require a lot of CFM and no water lift, like table saws or stationary planers, you will be better off with a vacuum like Jet which can go up to 500+ CFMs. It is the hand tools where dust extractors really can make a difference.

It is unlikely that you will see a "breakthrough" change if you switch from what you have to a dust extractor. It is hard to quantify the difference to "justify" the price. A dust extractor will make your life more pleasant, though, and dust collection may become  better, at least for some tools. There are many examples on the FOG where people successfully used shop vacuums with Festool tools. Compared to no vacuum at all, they work very well. Compared to dedicated dust extractors, not so much, or not always so much.

It is a step to the next level. A shop vac compared to no dust collection at all is a huge bang for the buck. From this level to the next, you spent a lot more money to get a relatively lesser quantifiable improvement. Your comfort and convenience are the hardest to assign $$ values to.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Until you pull the trigger on a Festool sander you could buy a Festool non-antistatic hose to use with your shop vac and Domino, TS55 and Carvex.

 

[Doug S]

I have a midi that travels around with me that is brilliant. In my workshop I have a fein that is normally attached to the Kapex and a ct26 under the bench for routers etc. The ct26 is good but I bought it off ebay very cheap (looked very scruffy) but if it died tomorrow I would struggle justifying paying full price for a new one, it's not twice as good as the fein. If all you need it for is the adjustable suction for sanding in my opinion get a midi or even mini.

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

I have a midi and use it for my Festool sanders.  The adjustable suction is a must for sander stability.  I had a ct22 in the past and sold it when I bought the Midi.

The midi is the perfect size.  The ct22 was big and bulky.  I also own a Fein turbo ll.  It has a lot of suction, but doesnt have adjustable suction.  I think the newer Feins have adjustable suction.  The other negative with the Fein is that its top heavy.

If I were you I would buy the Midi.

 

[Bohdan]

Before I switched to a CT36 I used a cheap shop vac. The drop in noise, improvement in dust control and auto starting were a real eye opener but what caused me to switch was the following.

The CTs have a separate cooling air duct and fan for the motor while the cheap vacs just use the airflow of the suction to cool the motor. I was using a cheap shop vac with an RO150 which can produce a lot of fine dust. The fine dust had blocked the filter which reduced the cooling to the motor but I didn't notice the drop in flow until the all plastic vac stopped working and burst into flames.

I can assure you that the sight of a flaming inferno of plastic in the middle of a wood shop does not do much for your pulse rate.

It is definitely worth the money to buy tools that are designed to do the job rather than cobble something together and then have to live with unexpected and often dangerous surprises.

 

[dsh1705]

I have a CT36 and I wish I had a midi - CT36 is a beast (I really get my exercise moving it from the detached shop to the house!).

Fantastic tips on the suction for the Rotex sander, BTW  ;D

I am hoping my house vacuum fails, so I can buy a midi or a mini for the house - they really are that quiet and powerful. Of course, my house is in a constant state of remodel, so I get stuck with the vacuuming!  [crying]

Antistatic hose is really quite a bonus, as well.

I wish I had one years ago....