Why Spend $700 On A Festool CT Dust Extractor?

[leakyroof]

Get a midi and save. 

The 26 and up are just too big for me anymore.

  What... WHAT.... [eek] [eek]  Okay, explain this.... [huh]  [smile] [smile]

He's probably hauling his CT around between locations, where as OP said it will sit in his shop and doesn't need portability. 

As for the cost, a MIDI might save you $175 up front, but over time, it will cost more.  Smaller bags need to be changed more which increases consumable cost.  A CT36 bag is 2.5x capacity of a MIDI bag.  You need to spend $83 on CT MIDI bags to equal the same total capacity as $43 worth of CT36 bags.  We're talking about a lot of bags over time to cover the up front savings, it will happen, and then you're into the "costs more" category.

  I should have elaborated.... Darcy is known for hauling in, rebuilding,  and owning, VERY HEAVY old all cast iron woodworking machines. So, a comment about weight getting to him is really funny to me....... [cool] [cool] [cool] [cool] [cool]

 

[bigarm]

I am very interested in this topic since I am trying to decide if I should spend the money on the Festool vac/dust collector and if so, which one.

 

[leakyroof]

I am very interested in this topic since I am trying to decide if I should spend the money on the Festool vac/dust collector and if so, which one.

If you want ease of weight and portability, then the MIDI usually works great, esp. climbing stairs with it.
The CT-26 is a bigger unit, but the hose attaches to the front, unlike the MIDI with its 90 degree top mounted hose, so for some people, that's a big concern.
I don't love moving my CT 36 auto as compared to my CT-26 or my new MIDI that I bought this summer, but at least it's not the CT-48... [eek]
So, in a nutshell, is your vac going to be shop bound or job site mainly?

 

[semenza]

I am very interested in this topic since I am trying to decide if I should spend the money on the Festool vac/dust collector and if so, which one.

Hi,

  Welcome to the forum!  [smile]

      You should be able to find lots of input on the CTs. Both technical specs and real world use on FOG. The value of the CT will end up being a personal choice and relative to your specific needs.

Seth

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I have better things to do then order 10 different components and mad scientist them together.

The two hundred bucks saved just cost me 3 hours of my life sourcing, ordering or driving to buy the parts and putting all together.

I just want to plug a vac in and be over it.

I guess if there is no value of your time. Heck, hand sand, hand saw and hand chop mortises.

I just save you 1000's.

 

[Steve-Rice]

As I mentioned in my original post, I was almost afraid to ask this question.  I have been amazed at the number of responses and the fact that this thread has been read over 3700 times in just a few days.

What I love about the FOG is the diversity of participants.  I find the variety of opinions very interesting, some really made me laugh and some had me scratching my head, but all an interesting read none the less. Thanks to all of you.

I'm still on the fence regarding my potential CT purchase.  Although I have the Dust Deputy and a HEPA filter on my shop vac, I'm wondering if the CT will still out perform by capturing more fine dust particles.  Some of the promotional materials for the CT mention that they "meet or exceed all requirements of HEPA RRP guidlines".  If the CT can out perform the HEPA filter on my shop vac, that would definitely be a reason for me to spend $700.  I've always been a health nut - I work out five nights a week, I'm constantly watching what I eat and I do not skimp on my health.  If the CT will provide better protection for my lungs, that's a deal maker for me.

 

[Steve-Rice]

Just found this:

RRP Full Unit Certified HEPA Vacuums

Only a Full Unit Certified HEPA dust extractor meets the EPA RRP regulation guidelines, protecting you from expensive fines! All current Festool CT Dust Extractor models have been independently tested and certified to be FULL UNIT HEPA Dust Extractors. When you purchase a new Festool CT Dust Extractor, regardless of model, you will find a printed certificate in the box as well as labeling on the dust extractor documenting its Full Unit HEPA certification. If your current vacuum only has a HEPA filter and is not Full Unit HEPA Certified, then you are at risk of being cited for noncompliance with EPA RRP regulations. Simply put, there's absolutely no substitute for Full Unit HEPA Certification when using your vacuum for RRP.

Looks like I've just answered my own question.  CT36 - here I come!  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

 

[Steve-Rice]

This line did it for me: "If your current vacuum only has a HEPA filter and is not Full Unit HEPA Certified, then you are at risk of being cited for noncompliance with EPA RRP regulations. "

Then I saw this: http://www.eparrphepavacuum.com/hepa-vacuums/EPA-RRP-Certified-HEPA-Vacuum/
and watched the video.

This made a believer out of me.

 

[Holmz]

This line did it for me: "If your current vacuum only has a HEPA filter and is not Full Unit HEPA Certified, then you are at risk of being cited for noncompliance with EPA RRP regulations. "

Then I saw this: http://www.eparrphepavacuum.com/hepa-vacuums/EPA-RRP-Certified-HEPA-Vacuum/
and watched the video.

This made a believer out of me.

What belief?

If one is cutting asbestos then a HEPA seems like a decent choice.
What does one legally need a HEPA for? and where?

If it is a track saw or a Domino it is different than a sander.
And any vacuum is miles ahead of no vacuum, so one should probably not be saving up for years to get the best.

 

[Brice Burrell]

This line did it for me: "If your current vacuum only has a HEPA filter and is not Full Unit HEPA Certified, then you are at risk of being cited for noncompliance with EPA RRP regulations. "

Then I saw this: http://www.eparrphepavacuum.com/hepa-vacuums/EPA-RRP-Certified-HEPA-Vacuum/
and watched the video.

This made a believer out of me.

What belief?

If one is cutting asbestos then a HEPA seems like a decent choice.
What does one legally need a HEPA for? and where?

If it is a track saw or a Domino it is different than a sander.
And any vacuum is miles ahead of no vacuum, so one should probably not be saving up for years to get the best.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has regulations for contractors working with items painted with lead based paint for residential buildings.  These regulations are referred to as RRP guidelines.  These regulations don't apply for homeowners doing work on their own residence. 

 

[Brice Burrell]

Just found this:

RRP Full Unit Certified HEPA Vacuums

Only a Full Unit Certified HEPA dust extractor meets the EPA RRP regulation guidelines, protecting you from expensive fines! All current Festool CT Dust Extractor models have been independently tested and certified to be FULL UNIT HEPA Dust Extractors. When you purchase a new Festool CT Dust Extractor, regardless of model, you will find a printed certificate in the box as well as labeling on the dust extractor documenting its Full Unit HEPA certification. If your current vacuum only has a HEPA filter and is not Full Unit HEPA Certified, then you are at risk of being cited for noncompliance with EPA RRP regulations. Simply put, there's absolutely no substitute for Full Unit HEPA Certification when using your vacuum for RRP.

Looks like I've just answered my own question.  CT36 - here I come!  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

Unless you are RRP certified and do RRP work I wouldn't put much value in the full unit HEPA certification.  The reason I say this that there is little or no difference in overall dust collection effectiveness with Festool's HEPA certified vacs than any of the quality dust extractors (not shop vacs) on the market.  With a quality extractor the place where dust escapes is at the source, not from the vacuum.  This is not the case with cheap shop vacuums, even with a HEPA filter, that don't have gaskets to seal dust containers. 
         

 

[Bohdan]

Looks like I've just answered my own question.  CT36 - here I come!  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

If you already have a DD and will use it on the CT then a CT36 is overkill in size. I have a CT36/DD combination and often fill the DD in less than a day but I have never filled the CT bag. I would recommend a CT26 as they have equal performance specs and the CT26 is cheaper and lighter.

And any vacuum is miles ahead of no vacuum, so one should probably not be saving up for years to get the best.

A cheap non HEPA vac will actually worsen the situation by filtering out all of the large particles and continuously reblowing all of the small cancerous dust into the air that you breath.

 

[peter halle]

As Brice pointed out suction is not related to HEPA.  Also I want to point out that a vacuum with a HEPA filter is not the same as a HEPA rated vacuum.  A HEPA filter equipped vacuum passes the air thru the HEPA filter.  A HEPA rated vacuum means that the air ultimately coming out of the vacuuming process is ALL passing thru the HEPA filter.  Lots of difference. Important to those dealing with lead paints, might not matter to others, but with respiratory problems it might be a consideration.

Peter

 

[Holmz]

Well first I have a CT26. Which was acquired for a specific mould problem.
Would I do it again?
I am not sure. I think I should look at the boom arm.

I strongly react to "The Festool System" as applied to vacuums.
Many sanders do not need the suction turned down, and most vacuums can take most sanders, and visa-versa.
And almost any vacuum can take up saw and domino debris, so there is little in way of a rational argument that "A system" does anything different, than using a different vacuum.

When advocating for "The System" then the boom and systainers mounting on a CT is a cogent argument that has merit.

Onto lead paint... then sanding does seem to require a HEPA.
Some of the cutters/planners remove the paint in larger chunks which seems to be a more sensible way to do it than sanding. It still probably requires a HEPA, but seems a good way to start.

So vacuums can be a complicated topic with the "what, where, and how".

[member=36526]Bohdan[/member] - I have a hard time believing that running debris through a vacuum can increase the fine dust. Yes I could increase the ratio of fine to course dust, but it does not increase fine dust.
Maybe I should have stated that, "any vacuum is better for chips than no vacuum?"
Saw dust from saws, a domino, or a router, is generally different than wood dust from a sander. The router seems to produce the finest dust from 'a cut'. But the sanding dust is always fine.

In terms of the OP's question on post #1... He already has a solution (or 3) that address the domino, TS55 and Carvex. And those tools product bigger "saw dust".
And He is removing dust and going through a filter... what else is there?
Is there really a step up from his current implementation that a new vacuum would address?
Personally I can see no great reason for yet another vacuum unless he is doing something away from the shop, and then the Midi or the 26 might be better than a CT36... Assuming a FT vac is required and he cannot haul around the current one.

 

[Mort]

I'm a hobbyist, let's leave all that out. My Craftsman cost $120 about 13 years ago. I've replaced the filter twice (I blow it out) for about $35 total. Plus, all the accessories came with it. I understand that costs up to $300+ with the CT? I don't buy bags.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt at all the CTs are among the best out there. My Craftsman is loud, doesn't autostart my tools, you can't vary the suction, it's not HEPA certified, doesn't hold any systainers, and takes up a lot of room. But it vacuums.

[member=46908]Mort[/member]
A few questions:

When you say you blow out the filter, do you use compressed air? 
Do you blow it out inside over your trash can or do you take it outside, check the wind direction and blow it out towards the neighbor's house, perhaps?

When you're vacuuming without all that "fancy expensive HEPA stuff" how do you prevent the fine particles from shooting out the exhaust?  (Things like a DIY guy would encounter, like drywall dust, grinding dust, loose insulation, cement dust, sanding dust, plain ol' fine dust, etc)

Well, depending on wind direction, the dust from the filter either goes toward a dusty field, or my neighbor who is A. Related to me, and B. Also trying to blow sawdust in my direction.

And in regards to the HEPA thing, you're making my argument for me. The OP was about economics. You cannot sell a CT on value for money. You need to sell it on excellent performance and time savings, which is what everyone on this thread is doing.

 

[teocaf]

[member=46908]Mort[/member]
At the end of your description of your shop vac, you said that despite the lack of other features, the thing actually vacuums.  If you're pulling in stuff in the front but then some of the most toxic stuff gets ejected out the back at high velocity, can one really say that the tool is doing its job or just an approximation of the job? And then more of the stuff you've captured gets distributed freely around as you blow out the filter. So despite what the mfg calls it--a VAC--it's actually more of a FPRRD (Fine Particle Random Relocation Device).  And who really knows what a fair market value for such a thing really is.  It's like buying a 'budget' square that's approximately 90 degrees.  Is it a square just because the package says so? or is it a RAAOAT (Random Angle Approximation of a Tool)?

I'm sure that I'll think up of something funnier after I've had my coffee...

 

[Mort]

I dunno, I think this dead horse has been beaten quite handily from my end. My old vac is not in the same league as a CT, I never said as much, so since this thread has gone from economics to fine particle filtering, I will bow out gracefully.

Good day. 

 

[ScoFF]

Almost every time someone posts a thread asking "should I buy this tool" especially a Festool, they already have it in their cart, already asked the wife's forgiveness, already made space in their shop.  Steve, am I right ? 

 

[Steve-Rice]

Scoff - I'm afraid you've got me pegged!  The only difference is I never tell my wife about any of my tool purchases.  When she notices something new in the shop, I always tell her I've that that for years... [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

 

[sancho57]

Steve, that's right out of my play book