Why ya gotta get the whole story

[Bob Marino]

This is a thread from the Woodnet Forum, that is sooooooooooo irritating to me, and not just because it concerns Festool. I just wish people had sense enough not to post until they read the whole story.
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbth...&Number=3290035&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=

  Bob

 

[Dan Clermont]

Hi Bob

I was following that thread last night and was shaking my head cause Chris admitted to not following the cardinal rule of tenon use a month or so ago.

I know Chris really likes the Domino even though he is a hand tool guy and feels guilty using a power tool for tenons. Told me he'll get over it sooner or later.

Their are people out there who just want to see Festool fail. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime.

Dan Clermont

 

[Lou Miller]

I really try to be on an even keel when it comes to tools, especially Festool. Some people think Festool is the end all when it comes to tools and others have their issues where they are going to try and put them down no matter what. I do my best to avoid both types of posters. I could tell just from the title of that thread that it wasn't going to be worth reading, so I stayed away.

For what its worth, the same poster that started that thread about the Domino, also started a thread that was putting down the sawstop. I don't recognize the poster's name, but I get the feeling its just a case of envy on his part. He'd probably target any high end tool. I could be wrong, but two threads in the same day???

Just ignore it Bob, you'll be better off if you do.

 

[Dan Clark]

Bob,

Several of the forums are populated with people who have little to do with their lives, so they feel the need to misrepresent, misquate, and cause trouble.   

Chris wrote that essentially he had made a mistake.   A user issue.   He wrote that he should have used three Dominos, not two.  He rectified this and the Dominos held up fine.

Further, he wrote...

This week I?m gearing up for some more furniture projects. My youngest daughter needs some bookshelves, and the friends with the new (read: empty) house need some shelves as well. And our living room has never had a decent coffee table. Ah, and the campaign chest I?ve been doodling is starting to tug at me.

And the Domino figures prominently in many of those plans.

Chris is a fine woodworker and writer.  He reports what he finds clearly and accurately.   Unfortunately the OP of that post did not follow Chris' example.   The OP wrote this:

Either he's a idiot or the Domino jointer ain't no good. What do you think?

The OP failed to offer the obvious third option - that HE (the OP) may be the uhmm... "suboptimal individual".   8)

Dan.

 

[neoshed]

Most forums seem to be full of good people.....except for the occasional tosser. It must be the season for them.

 

[Dave Rudy]

I really like the fact that since virtually everyone on this forum is not here to bash Festools, we can actually get the nonsense out of the way and discuss ways to help each other improve our work, figure out which tools are best for what purpose, etc.

I guess it's just in the nature of the beast.

After a fair bit of garbage on that other forum, I finally just stopped reading it.  There are some good techniques and the like there, but frankly I'd rather ask you guys when I have a question.

 

[iggy07]

I was introduced to the Festool concept by Corwin, who recommended Festool on the C-Dory users group (http://www.c-brats.com), so I haven't really been browsing the other wood working sites too much (yet). I now have the TS-55, CT-22, MFT 1080, and Rotex 150-EQ, and I've been learning how to use them over the past few months while remodeling our house for re-sale. I have a lot to learn, but they have been very helpful.

I am aware of some of the Festool bashing that takes place on other sites; some of it may be justified, but most is just irrational garbage. This reminds me of an analogy I have used elsewhere. If we are trying to decide where to go on vacation, we might visit sites that describe the pros and cons of visiting the sea shore or the mountains. Once we have decided to visit the mountains, we turn our attention to "Where in the mountains?", "Good values vs ripoffs?", "What are the potential side trips?", etc. At this stage of the inquiry, we don't need to be continually criticized for choosing the mountains over the sea shore!   We've already resolved part of the inquiry . . .  Having taken the Festool leap (off the notorious slippery slope), I don't need to be chastised for sliding down the wrong slippery slope!

One thing that is enormously useful about this site is a willingness, and a tolerance, and even better, the encouragement to discuss the pros and cons of other options, mfgs, etc., to get a specific problem solved. Obviously this is primarily a FOG forum, but no one is buying, or using Festools with blinders on. It is most helpful to me as a newcomer to WW in general, to read a variety of opinions, pro and con, as long as these opinions include honest critical analysis and are handled with respect.

Bob, I appreciate your frustration, but the thread in question most effectively brands the originator as a moron; nothing more, nothing less. Don't lose any sleep over it!

Ed Gallaher

 

[bruegf]

I wonder how many of the FOGgers are also boaters.  I've currently got a Marinette 32 (twin v8 gas guzzler that I bought after 20 years of sailboating) but am planning to sell.  C-Dory, C-Ranger, Shamrock, and Albin are on the short list of boats I'm considering for my next boat.  I've got to find something that gets better than 1mpg!!!

Fred

 

[HowardH]

This last weekend I attached a faceframe to a large cabinet i'm building and the domino made it very easy.  I love it when people trash a product (festool or otherwise) when they don't own one nor probably have never seen one in person.  They should just how much of an idiot they really are.  Their motto is "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!"

 

[Corwin]

I wonder how many of the FOGgers are also boaters.  I've currently got a Marinette 32 (twin v8 gas guzzler that I bought after 20 years of sailboating) but am planning to sell.   C-Dory, C-Ranger, Shamrock, and Albin are on the short list of boats I'm considering for my next boat.  I've got to find something that gets better than 1mpg!!!

Fred

Yep, since boaters are already accustom to the 'boating unit' thing -- for you non-boaters, this refers to units of $1000 that are all to often required -- they should readily adjust to this slope idea.

And Fred, those C-Boats do way better than 1mpg (mine managed 3-4mpg).  I have sold my C-Dory, but cannot express enough how pleased I was with that boat -- they truly are great little boats, just understand the hull shape as opposed to a V hull.  Before switching to fiberglass interiors, these boats were affectionally referred to as 'a blank canvas', as many liked modifying the boats to suit they individual needs.

Corwin

 

[Tinker]

For years, i have been dropping in and posting comments to another group (Wood Mag forums)  Recently, they changed their posting format and i find I can no longer post.  Another person had the same problem.  seems they, like me, have a Mac.  The format no longer recognizes Macs unless you dismantle this, upload this, throwaway that and so on.  The alternative is to get a PC.  I was mildly irritated over the reply but have continued to read (inability to tune in will be the next upgrade, I am sure) the posts.  a couple of weks ago, somebody mentioned Festool and the fight started.  i recognized a couple of sensible posters who also frequent the FOG who tried to make some sense, but those who were agin were definitely not nice.  I grew up with a saying (Old Indian) that went something like "Man should walk for 12 moons (or many moons) in his enemy's mocasins (or his detractor's mocasins, or something like that) before putting him down (or criticising or whatever)

I had a boat once.  A 13 foot outboard that I built (with a few extra and very important hands to help) and had one heck of a lot of fun with.  Great for picking up girls  : ;D I never wanted a larger one. (heck, I could only handle just so many......) My son has a 30 footer dual inboard with all the bells and whistles.  I sure do not refuse the ocassinal trip  : : : on that.
Tinker

 

[Fred West]

Bob, truly not even worth worrying about or giving this guy more time and attention. Chris made it crystal clear that it was strictly user error and that he still loved the Domino. Lack of the ability to read and/or comprehend is nothing that any of us will ever be able to combat. You know that I am a huge advocate of Festool, FOG and Wood Central. I have yet to see anything derogatory come out of Wood Central about Festool and if it did I think John Lucas would probably jump on that person before even I did.

By the way, after reading his post I believe that he thinks the world is flat. ) Fred

 

[bruegf]

And Fred, those C-Boats do way better than 1mpg (mine managed 3-4mpg).  I have sold my C-Dory, but cannot express enough how pleased I was with that boat -- they truly are great little boats, just understand the hull shape as opposed to a V hull.  Before switching to fiberglass interiors, these boats were affectionally referred to as 'a blank canvas', as many liked modifying the boats to suit they individual needs.

Corwin

My Marinette has a very flat deadrise, so tends to pound a fair amount in head seas of any size and wallows terribly in following seas.  But because its all aluminum and relatively light it actually gets decent mileage (for a 32 flybridge) as much as  1.27mpg when lightly loaded on flat water.  I'm hoping to get to a C-Ranger and C-Dory dealer over in Wisconsin to take a look at those boats in the near future.  Or maybe I should sell my boat and use the money to get a complete collection of Festools   That would certainly be a lot cheaper in the long run, what with slip fees and winter storage coming to nearly $5K per year.

Fred

 

[Bob Marino]

The post caught my attention because it was about a Festool product. But, like I mentioned in that post, it could have been about a Craftsmen (or any other tool for that matter). The internet (and by extension the forums) is a wonderful resource, unlike anything in years past, well at least the speed at which info can be obtained and disseminated. Of course some people have a bias against Festool, some against Bosch, some against Grizzly, or Powermatic, etc. That's what makes horse races, I guess. But just puttin' out negative info, before doing the least bit of checking/reading is just poor form and at best, just not helpful . Maybe laziness, maybe an agenda, maybe not, who knows? Festool's tools have not been, are not now, and probably will never be beyond the scope of intelligent criticism. They are always being checked, tested  to find ways of enhancing their tools. I am not Festool's Godfather, taking those who don't like the tools, to task. Quite the contrary, if you have a legitimate issue, I think it wise to bring it out in the open and many times I email the Powers that Be the issue in question. I am a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay small/tiny cog in the wheel ...at best.

Bob

 

[ROb McGilp]

Bob,
I thought we Aussies were the only ones that were equiped with Black and Green chain mail armour when we purchased our first Festool. Good grief!!

Regards,

Rob

 

[Dan Clark]

Bob,

It's all in how you phase the question.   If the question only has a negative answer, that's it probably has an agenda behind it.   

There's a famous story about lawyers.   When you have a person on the witness stand, one of the norms is that the lawyer is NEVER supposed to ask a question unless he already knows the answer.  The most famous is, "Are you still beating your wife?!?  Here's how it goes...

Lawyer (talking to the witness): "Sir, are you still beating your wife?"

Option A...
Witness: No! 
Lawyer: "Great!  Now we are getting somewhere.  So you are an admitted wife-beater!  When did you stop beating your wife?"

Option B...
Witness: Yes! 
Lawyer: "Great!  Now we are getting somewhere.  So you are an admitted wife-beater and are STILL beating your wife!"

No matter what the witness answers, he's still a wife-beater!

Hmmm...  "So Bob, are you still selling those crappy Festool tools?!?"  ;D 

Regards,

Dan.

p.s., there are many honerable lawyers out there.  I took several law classes while an undergraduate and thought about becoming one myself.

 

[neoshed]

I myself.....have only just seen the light.

I got serious about woodworking a couple of years ago and started to acquire my collection of tools. There was always two issues: one the mess and two cutting stuff straight.

I found numerous forums in my search for answers and I'd heard of festool. I initially ignored festool because of the cost and searched elsewhere. I found the easy system and thought it might be the answer and bought into it. It's a good system with good ideas. Afterwards with 20 20 hindsight I realised that it was only part of and not a complete solution. I now have a means to cut straight but the dust is flying everywhere. I know I could canabalise my hitachi but it just didn't seem worth it.

It's only been the past couple of months that I've truly studied the festool range and I've realised that the answer was there all along. I realise that no tool is perfect but I'm sold on festool's concepts especially the dc issue.

It just seems a shame that for a lot of woodwork forums it's a matter of mine's better than yours. Thats one of the nice things about looking here....I dont have to ignore a thread that says A is better than B

 

[Hergy]

Yep, I was in on that thread over at Woodnet. After seeing a number of these types of threads, I have given up on trying to inject any degree of reason. The post was intended to bash the Domino pure and simple despite what the OP said. I have belonged over there for 6 or 7 years and a while back the bashing and sniping was so bad that I quit going there for quite a while. The temperament is better now, but mention Festool and you better get your fireproof suit on. I'm glad I found this site.

 

[Bob Marino]

Yep, I was in on that thread over at Woodnet. After seeing a number of these types of threads, I have given up on trying to inject any degree of reason. The post was intended to bash the Domino pure and simple despite what the OP said. I have belonged over there for 6 or 7 years and a while back the bashing and sniping was so bad that I quit going there for quite a while. The temperament is better now, but mention Festool and you better get your fireproof suit on. I'm glad I found this site.

I think Woodnet was getting a bad reputation when, for a while, threads got way out of hand, way off topic and downright nasty. The Moderators stepped in and laid down the rules, or rather enforced the rules. It is now a much more civil and informative forum, despite those who blindly  some tool manufactures. What I have found, after being on the various forums for many years, is that the strongest Festool tool critics are those who have neither used, seen or handled the tools. And again, Festool is neither perfect, nor above reproach, and benefits, IMHO, by constructive criticism. After all, if all Festool  heard was positive testimonials, how would they improve the tools?
  Bob

 

[Daviddubya]

I think Woodnet was getting a bad reputation when, for a while, threads got way out of hand, way off topic and downright nasty...  Bob

I got pretty fed up with Woodnet earlier this year and simply stopped visiting there.  The tone of many threads was very negative and the people were unkind to one another.  Recently, I went back to see if things had improved.  Sadly, after reading several threads that were of interest to me, I concluded that the negativity continues, to the point that the forum is irritating.  There are too many good woodworking forums to bother with those that raise your hackles.  I really enjoy this FOG forum, Sawmill Creek and Wood, to name a few.  I'll give Woodnet a few more visits, but I suspect I'll stop visiting again for the same reasons I quit previously.  As my dear wife says. "Life is too short to dance with ugly people".