Will Buying a Domino Help with glue-ups?

[3PedalMINI]

Were redoing our kitchen and haven chosen to go with a cherry countertop. Ive done some practice glu ups and im not to happy with the dewalt biscuit joiner i purchased a few years ago (surprised?)

its one thing with a bunch of cheap pine but for the final product i want this to be as perfect as possible. Will the dominos help prevent "cupping" and help with vertical alignment? There have been a bunch of other house projects that would be nice to have the domino for to but this is the main project im trying to justify the domino for.

Thanks!

 

[Brice Burrell]

I think there was another thread like this not all that long ago.  I don't think it's worth using the Domino for panel glue ups.  It won't prevent cupping but it will help with vertical alignment.  If you have good stock prep and a little care in alignment goes a long way to help glue ups. 

 

[tiralie]

Were redoing our kitchen and haven chosen to go with a cherry countertop. Ive done some practice glu ups and im not to happy with the dewalt biscuit joiner i purchased a few years ago (surprised?)

I agree with Brice.
Buying the domino for panel glue ups is not the best use, but if you can use it for other things go ahead.

You should be able to glue up your panels without dominos or biscuits and you will have greater flexibility in getting a perfectly flush match without the vertical alignment restriction that the biscuits or dominos impose if the tool cuts a groove a bit too high or low.
If the panels are not lining up when gluing up "cheap pine" it's probably 'cause your pine has not been milled (planed and edged squared) properly. Proper prep is the key to good glue ups.
Tim

 

[Mavrik]

You're not playing the game properly.
The OP is looking for support to buy a new Festool.
[big grin]

 

[Birdhunter]

I use my Domino for glue-ups, cabinet construction, small boxes, etc. I also have a DeWalt biscuit cutter that I don't use much anymore.

My experience proved to me that one has to very precise when using the Domino, especially with the vertical alignment. There is an after market attachment for the Domino that greatly helped me in getting very accurate vertical alignment. It's called a Domiplate from Senaca Woodworking. There are some Youtube videos on the attachment. I normally use the Domiplate instead of the Domino's fence. I find the fence can "drift" up and down if not perfectly tightened. A little bit of "drift" really messes up a project.

Also, I learned a trick from Halfinchshy's video. He shows cutting the mortises on one board using the exact tenon size setting and the wider size tenon hole on the mating board. This allows for shifting the boards horizontally to get optimal alignment.

I'd strongly suggest practicing with the Domino on some scrap rather than your glue-ups. There is a lot of technique to getting really good results with the Domino. I highly recommend watching Halfinchshy's videos before firing up the Domino.

I bought the Domino kit with all the cutters and a big assortment of tenons. I think that's the way to go.

I bought several other after market attachments for the Domino. I don't find any of them as useful as the Domiplate.

The Domino won't help with cupping.

 

[Stephen B]

Re cupping,

I find this can be minimised by making panels in 1/3 or even 1/4 sections and careful use of a jointer/planer to ensure square edge on each join. Also by making panels in sections each section can be lightly planed on a jointer, and even lightly sent through the thicknesser and rejointed prior to final glue up, thereby further reducing the amount of cupping needed to be sanded out. This is not a total solution but I find it significantly reduces the problem. Test clamping also helps you to see what may be happening.

This all takes time, time a commercial operation my not have; hence they often use  specialist clamping mechanisms and large sanding machines which I do not have nor can I justify.

 

[Birdhunter]

I was building a large box with a top that was too large for my 16/32 drum sander. The customer had selected extremely expensive wood and had a tight time table. I certainly didn't want to scrap the top using a makeshift approach and I didn't have time to experiment.

My local Woodcraft store had access to a large commercial drum sander and processed the box top for a very reasonable fee.

If your glue up is large, you might want to look at a commercial shop to flatten it for you.

 

[sancho57]

For me it depends. If the end panels are part of the box (plywood) yes it will definitely help. If you are going to use applied raised panels for end panels you can get away without it. I use the domino for glue ups.

I use domino 2 per butt joint. They help with the alignment and hold the box together while I screw the boxes together.

 

[fastbike]

Cupping of panels isn't a biscuit joiner problem and a domino won't help. The panels need to be properly laid out and clamped w/ cauls.

Planing or sanding may still be needed.

 

[Stephen B]

Sorry  '3 Pedel', what we all seem to be saying is that preparation of your timber is the key, not a domino, although it may assist. This includes alternating end grain so that two consecutive pieces do not run in the same direction. This will assist in preventing cupping pressures after installation.

However I agree with Maverick, we are not playing the game properly; so of course you need a domino and enjoy the learning curve as am I at present.

 

[fshanno]

You mean a countertop that's going to end up being over 25" wide by maybe 10 feet long?  And you're going to do it yourself.?  All I can say is, you're a better man than I Gunga Din. 

I tell you what.  I bet it's going to end up being a lot more work than say a poured in place concrete top would be.  And it will end up costing more.  But if it's what you have your heart set on it will be worth it

And first of all, let's get one thing straight.  Flatness post glue up is not an issue.  You're going to do your best to make it flat and then you're going to take it out of the clamps and you're going to deal with it.  You're going to get it flat if you have to chew it with your teeth like a beaver or scrape it with your fingernails till they bleed.  No matter how it comes out of the clamps it will end up flat in the long run, so let it be written, so let it be done. 

As for the Domino, I think Dominos will help with vertical alignment and aid in assembly and glue up.  Especially for a DIY'er working by himself.  I assume there will be some end joints, that all the boards won't run all the way from end to end.  I think the Domino would be especially useful for those end joints.  I also think the tenons would help to mitigate cupping.  I'd go at least 8x50's.  10's wouldn't hurt.

The down side to the Dominos is that they will make the whole thing quite a bit wider depending on the number of seams.  You may need to reset the clamps cause you'll run out of threads before it's tight.  The Dominos will also make it harder to pull the thing together.  You certainly don't want to put any glue in the mortises.  Some will leak in and that will be more than enough.  You don't want to have to deal with applying force to get glue out of mortises plus all that extra squeeze out.

 

[JuliMor]

Were redoing our kitchen and haven chosen to go with a cherry countertop. Ive done some practice glu ups and im not to happy with the dewalt biscuit joiner i purchased a few years ago (surprised?)

its one thing with a bunch of cheap pine but for the final product i want this to be as perfect as possible. Will the dominos help prevent "cupping" and help with vertical alignment? There have been a bunch of other house projects that would be nice to have the domino for to but this is the main project im trying to justify the domino for.

Thanks!

It's not the tool, it's ..... a lot of other things.

Panel glue ups can and are usually done without the use of biscuits, dowels or dominos.  You just square up the edges and glue.  But in order to get a good glue up the wood has to be properly milled.  That means it has to be flat, square and stable and the edges have to be properly planed.  There are a lot of applications where creating (building) a large slab is workable but the larger the area and the thicker the wood, the more difficult it is to get the wood to do what you want. 

Any time you are working with solid wood in wide widths, you need to know expansion properties of the wood.  Some woods and builds can expand and break glue joints and ruin your work, as they absorb moisture.  Certain joints will fail, no matter what you do to prevent that. You need to know what they are before you take that beautiful cherry and try to make it into a stable slab.

Before you jump into this project you need to know the movement of the wood and then to calculate that into the build. 

Start with the Wood Shrinkage Calculator: http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=shrinkage

Then go to here: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/specific_pub.php?posting_id=18102&header_id=p and download it.  You'll learn a lot about the particular species you're working with.  Be one with the wood, Grasshopper!  ;D

Finally, for any long board glue-ups, you need to know how to create a spring joint.  Tommy does a great job explaining this  http://www.thomasjmacdonald.com/media/video.php?vid=401f67810

Good luck!

 

[Nick C]

A Domino will hurt more than it will help. As others have pointed out, the panel parts should glue together perfectly, without edge joinery of any kind. If dominos, dowels, splines, or biscuits are used to force the parts into alignment, there will be stresses in the finished panel that will cause problems. Cupping can be minimized, but not eliminated. Quarter-sawn lumber will help, as will using boards that are not very wide. Cherry is beautiful, and if it is the look you are seeking I would suggest that you consider applying cherry veneer to an MDF substrate. You get the look, but you also get the stability you need in a counter top. If you use this approach, I suggest you saw your own veneer. You need to do the top and bottom, and I suggest a solid cherry banding for the edges so you can rout a bullnose or other edge treatment.

 

[mouppe]

I often use the domino to help align my panels. If the pieces are large or I am doing several at once, the dominoes help me during a frantic glue-up. Usually I go with the 4mm tenons for this purpose, but they are not a substitute for bad joinery or warped lumber. I make sure the panel pieces fit together well before reaching for the domino- especially that their edges are square or match-planed.

You can overcome a small amount of cupping by sandwiching the offending piece between two wider flatter pieces. Also, the thinner the material the easier it is to force them into shape.

 

[Birdhunter]

Please let us know what you decided to do and how it turns out.

I am especially interested in how you finish the cherry. I've struggled with getting a non-blotch finish on cherry. I've gone the shellac route and it produced a relatively non-blotchy finish after many coats, but shellac certainly isn't tough enough for a counter top. If you come up with good results, please share your secret.

And, I suggest getting the Domino 500. I delayed for a couple of years because of the cost and, now I regret not having it for many projects for which it would have been ideal. It's a difficult tool to master, but, once you do, it's fantastic.

 

[fdengel]

This includes alternating end grain so that two consecutive pieces do not run in the same direction.

If we are talking about plywood, how would this be relevant?

 

[Paul G]

Cupping of panels isn't a biscuit joiner problem and a domino won't help. The panels need to be properly laid out and clamped w/ cauls.

Planing or sanding may still be needed.

Yea, I would be looking to use cauls as well.

 

[Stephen B]

This includes alternating end grain so that two consecutive pieces do not run in the same direction.

If we are talking about plywood, how would this be relevant?

News to me we are talking about plywood panels. However, quality ply does have alternating layers for overall strength.

Re glue ups have a look at -

www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/avoiding-cupped-panels/
by Marc Spagnuolo - in 4,500 Google+ circles
Dec 17, 2009 – So if the wood is stable and dry, I try to keep the boards as wide as my ... So when gluing up a panel, should you alternate the grain, one up/one ...

PS. some good follow up articles Julie, thanks.

 

[Stone Message]

Were redoing our kitchen and haven chosen to go with a cherry countertop. Ive done some practice glu ups and im not to happy with the dewalt biscuit joiner i purchased a few years ago (surprised?)

its one thing with a bunch of cheap pine but for the final product i want this to be as perfect as possible. Will the dominos help prevent "cupping" and help with vertical alignment? There have been a bunch of other house projects that would be nice to have the domino for to but this is the main project im trying to justify the domino for.

Thanks!

I sold my Lamello within a few weeks of getting my Domino 500. The Domino is much better and is perfect for kitchen work. There are many who still use the biscuit jointer as it suits their type of work and as long as they think that they are getting better results and enjoy a better work flow then I will not try and persuade them to migrate to the Domino. Despite having one of the best biuscuit jointers on the market and using it as designed my Domino work is far superior.

Peter

 

[farms100]

one question I have is are you glueing up lots of strips on edge, or 3-4 wide boards?

Cherry looks great, but is fairly soft, we have cherry flooring and it has lots of small dents from shoes, stuff being dropped on it etc.

like other said, proper wood preparation is vital. Don't overlook moisture problems, and  sticker everything

1. let wood acclimate to the shop
2. Double check your machinery set ups, fences, blades etc at 90 degrees
3. rough mill oversize then sticker. Boards that develop significant bow, twist, or cup might be reaction wood, or had drying faults
4. final mil to size
5 Dry fit and dry clamp to see what happens.
      I suggest glueing up in stages so its less stressful, glue up on a flat surface, and use cauls