Woodpeckers $289.00 measuring tool vs. mine made from scrap and paper clips.

[Oldwood]

^^^
I am in the same boat as Micheal. I bought the fittings and made a couple sets, thinking I would use them for squaring cabinets and transferring measurements, but I never use them.

 

[Packard]

I assemble cabinets using 6 of these clamps.  One on each corner on the bench and two more on top when I am clamping. 

I stopped checking for squareness after a while.  They were always square.

I have both Pony and Jorgenson versions.  I have four mounted on 3/4" plywood squares about 8" x 8".  Those rest on the assembly table.  You really don't need to do that, but it makes it compatible with this type of clamp which I also have:

 

[Redromad]

following this post as this is something I want but don't want to spend the WP money.

 

[Cheese]

Pony & Jorgenson are one and the same.  [smile]

That 2nd Pony clamp is made by Bessey…FWIW.

 

[Packard]

Pony & Jorgenson are one and the same.  [smile]

That 2nd Pony clamp is made by Bessey…FWIW.

I did not pay too much attention.  Sorry.  My point was that those clamps are actually 90 degrees.  Some of the cheaper ones are off a degree or two.  Since these cost about $8.00 each and seemingly last forever, it does not make sense to go cheap on the corner clamps.

 

[ChuckM]

I have these from Rockler. 

https://www.rockler.com/square-check-for-tape-measures

I have one, too, but have never used it, because in most carcase glue-ups I do, the clamps get in the way.

When clamps get in the way, I use one of the three squaring diagonals (S, M & L (6' long - cabinets I build are usually within 5' wide)). It rests on the carcase, and I can monitor the squaring progress as I move or tighten the clamps. None to fewer trial & error adjustments.

 

[jeh]

I do find fault with a company that sets out to produce tools that they fully believe do not merit production. I am referring to their "one-time tools".  They only intend to produce the item one time because they don't believe it will prove that useful.  If it does prove popular, do you believe that they won't produce it "one more time"?

Since they moved to their larger facility, they have added former one time tools to their regular lineup.  If people buy it and it proves popular, they do add items to their normal lineup.

So they market it as "one-time" limited edition, and then it becomes regular production? 

I bought one of the T-squares that they advertised.  They had so little faith in the market for this that they would not actually produce the parts until they had a sufficient number of orders.  They kept sending me notes that it was coming but it took months after I placed the order. 

So it is maybe 1-time; or maybe not-at-all (if they don't finally get enough orders; or maybe regular production.  I still have maybe no respect for a company that does business like this.

Good for you, but they like every other company on earth who wants to be successful they sell whatever they can. I am glad they make a one-off tools and it is even better if they become a permanent part of the line-up. Be happy they are in business for without them we have very few choices and no one is making most of the tools they do.

 

[Vondawg]

Couldn’t have said it better JimH2

 

[Crazyraceguy]

So they market it as "one-time" limited edition, and then it becomes regular production? 

I bought one of the T-squares that they advertised.  They had so little faith in the market for this that they would not actually produce the parts until they had a sufficient number of orders.  They kept sending me notes that it was coming but it took months after I placed the order. 

So it is maybe 1-time; or maybe not-at-all (if they don't finally get enough orders; or maybe regular production.  I still have maybe no respect for a company that does business like this.

Yeah, this topic came up a few months ago, with much the same reply.
I just don't like the "hurry up and get it while you can" mentality. What if you really wanted one, but didn't know it existed until it was too late?
If it is truly about volume of production making the tooling viable, why not  make it a yearly edition type of thing. They produced the tooling, why let it sit and gain nothing? Set it up once a year or so, produce some and stock them until they are gone until next year. If some items don't sell out in a year, don't do the run that time. This keeps the "exclusivity" of limited edition to a slightly lesser degree, but doesn't eliminate potential buyers either.
Price is kind of an "it is what it is" thing. If people are willing to pay it, and they would rather have higher margin and lower volume, so be it. But I think the "one time" thing is a mistake.
The only WP item I own is the adjustable rail square. It is expensive yes, but it is also the only one one the market that is angle adjustable. It is very accurate. I cut some 12 inch wide pieces that were about 12 inches long to make an octagon shape. It worked out just fine. It takes some work on the users part to get the lengths correct, because there is no stop system to make it fool proof, but it does work. Do the really sell that many of them though?
It's not an everyday tool, but it will get you out of a jam.
They have some other tools that I would be interested in, but the "one time" thing is a barrier.

 

[Holzhacker]

Given the amount of annoyance that comes up on the FOG about the 'one time tool' label, WP might want to rethink the idea. In the beginning I could understand the 'one time tool' idea for limited production. At this point though I would think WP has enough data on their sales to have a pretty good idea about how many units are likely to sell.
Renaming the one time tool as a calendar year limited production run might be smarter at this point. They should know pretty well at this point if they are likely to sell 500 or 2000 of a particular unit. Make a run that is profitable and sell them out.
BCT did something like this with their tools. Tools were dated and the different years had tweaks, different woods, etc.
But heh, I'm must a schmuck so what do I know.

 

[ben_r_]

Be sure to check out banggood folks, many of the Woodpeckers designs have been copied, are surprisingly good quality and can be had for a small fraction of the cost Woodpeckers asks for them! Regardless of how some may feel about it, those options are here to stay.

 

[ChuckM]

Google brought me to Banggood one time when I was looking for an accessory. The price quoted was really competitive. I opened an account, but decided later to use something else instead of buying another gadget.

Once registered, I couldn't stop the spam offers from coming -- the unsubscribed option that came with every spam mail was useless. I suspect that each time I clicked the unsubscribed link, I was actually confirming my existence! Luckily, I always use one of the spare gmail or hotmail accounts whenever dealing with an unknown vendor, and all I had to do was to disable the forwarding function.

So Banggood will never be a merchant for me fearing that I can't shake it off if I provide my real email address and/or payment details. Amazon and eBay are still places where I go when my usual online sources or local stores don't have what I want.

 

[Mini Me]

That was not my experience at all, I unsubscribed and the emails stopped immediately. 

 

[ChuckM]

That was not my experience at all, I unsubscribed and the emails stopped immediately.

They (their program) could be targeting potential customers? I tried at least three times with no success before giving up.

Believe it or not. Fine Woodworking keeps emailing me as a Valued Subscriber, asking for feedback, even though I've stopped being a subscriber for years. And no, clicking the unsubscribed link does nothing. The one below came in two weeks ago. Trouble is I used my regular email address with this reputable merchant, and couldn't use the disabled forwarding trick. Learned my lesson.

 

[Mini Me]

Tag it as spam and it won't reach your inbox.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Be sure to check out banggood folks, many of the Woodpeckers designs have been copied, are surprisingly good quality and can be had for a small fraction of the cost Woodpeckers asks for them! Regardless of how some may feel about it, those options are here to stay.

I have always had problems with knock-off tools or repair parts.
First, they always seem to be "so close" but just not right. Just a little more time/attention to detail and they could be far better. I always assume that this is because they are just copying an existing thing and don't have the engineering and user experience to know how the thing is actually used. They don't know what is important or why.

Second, and clearly related. They can make these things so much cheaper for at least partly that same reason. They certainly have some engineering/design time in it, but only in the realm of reproducing it. It is far easier to copy than to innovate. There is no "risk" in copying a successful product. That research/design time up-front costs and that has to be recovered before the product is profitable. The sales volume affects this too, so there is some research time involved there. Pricing has to be in-line with that goal. They have to sell it for enough to recover these costs, in addition to the materials, labor, etc. Lower total volume of sales (as projected) has to result in higher prices.
So the knock-off products that get sold "instead" of the genuine ones cut into that sales figure.
This means they have to sell the product at a lesser profit and hold that out for a longer time to recover or drop the product entirely. ie "cut their losses"

I can only imagine that manufacturers like WP are aware of this. They know it going in, that someone who has no accountability to patent protections is going to copy their products. So they have to increase the profit margin and therefore selling price to make up for the decrease in sales.
It becomes a vicious cycle. The prices are higher because of the actual costs involved in the process of design, engineering, prototyping, manufacturing, marketing, etc plus making up for the lesser volume of sales that come from knock-offs. That makes the gap between their price and the copy even greater. Sales of the copies go up because of that and the cycle continues.
Yes, way too much thought went into that.

I ran into this recently with a Festool product.
The "Power Tec" screw clamps for the MFT are a good example. They look similar and they do work (mostly), but there are quality differences. First, the bend of the hook that goes into the table is not nearly as sharp, so the vertical column is forced against the side of the hole, rather than floating  wherever you place it as you tighten it up. Second, there is some misalignment somewhere in the sliding arm. It is either broached slightly off or the threads are drilled/tapped slightly off. They do not tighten squarely to the table. This may or may not matter in some cases or to some people. Even tough I think the handles of the genuine Festool ones are too small, I still much prefer them and will not buy any more of the others. And these don't have anywhere near the price difference of the WP vs others.

 

[Mini Me]

If there were no copies there would be no choice, the Domino is a good example of that as was the Fein Multi Tool and the Lamello Biscuit jointer before that. How many baulked at the original (not the Domino) but eagerly bought the knock off from Asia when they became available? The criticism of WP prices does not align with people who work for WP wanting a decent salary or living wage, do the critics think those employees should suffer because some here think the price is too high and should work for less just so someone can buy the product cheaper? As a general rule and this forum is a bit immune to it most woodworkers could not afford any sort of machinery if it was not made in Asia, sad but true.

 

[ChuckM]

Tag it as spam and it won't reach your inbox.

The point is not about filtering, but about not getting spammed. Seeing those offers in my junk email folder makes me think the merchants concerned are not playing according to the social rules.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

If there were no copies there would be no choice, the Domino is a good example of that as was the Fein Multi Tool and the Lamello Biscuit jointer before that. How many baulked at the original (not the Domino) but eagerly bought the knock off from Asia when they became available? The criticism of WP prices does not align with people who work for WP wanting a decent salary or living wage, do the critics think those employees should suffer because some here think the price is too high and should work for less just so someone can buy the product cheaper? As a general rule and this forum is a bit immune to it most woodworkers could not afford any sort of machinery if it was not made in Asia, sad but true.

My only criticism of WP is the "One Time" thing. I could see making different (lower volume) products only one or twice a year. You might have to wait, but it would still be available. The buy it "now or never" is simply annoying. They have the tooling, the design was already done, so those expenses have already occurred. At this point, it would only cost the time and material.

As far as copies. That is the point of the patent process. It offers some protection to recover the initial cost of getting something new into production, then it expires over time. This seems fair to everyone. It allows the originator to profit from the idea and making it to market with a new product. Then if it turns out to be something that has enough consumer interest, others can produce something similar at a lower price point, if they can figure out how well enough for people to actually buy it.

 

[Mini Me]

Patents only work for those with very deep pockets to defend them and in some cases even that does not work, been there and done that ONCE. Do WP patent their unique products because for some of them that is clearly not possible due to prior art as very few if any of them are unique and totally new. I say good on them, the business plan clearly works and the product is of good quality, I have bought OT products twice only because buying in our currency it is hugely expensive over the US $ price but that is my problem and not theirs.