Woodpeckers Protractor (ruler)

[Packard]

Not as detailed as I would like, but no wasted video footage.

 

[smorgasbord]

For me, repeatability is more important than accuracy.

I think we all agree on that, but here's a Peter Millard short on not needing accuracy that I think is false:

Even ignoring that one had to cut all those pieces stacked to get that non-square but consistent panel result, the problem is that the accuracy and repeatability are often tied together. In Millard's case, suppose he ruined one panel doing joinery on it or there was an accident and a panel got crushed or whatever, how would he be able to easily recut another non-square but matching panel - this being days or weeks later?

The answer, for me anyway, is accuracy. If you can reliably cut accurately, then you can repeat what you did with enough precision at any time.

In another instance, we've had threads on thin rip guides. I personally use my tablesaw's DRO. If one finds out later that one or two more thin rips are needed, chances are the thin rip guide has been removed from the saw, and so resetting it to exactly the same thickness isn't easy (that's why the thin rip guide exists in the first place!). But with my DRO I can recut to the same thinness to an accuracy of breathing on the wood to change its moisture content tolerance.

BTW, the tablesaw DRO is specced at +/-0.002" per foot. I periodically check my rip results with a digital caliper.

 

[Packard]

The way I see it, accuracy differs from repeatability, but the end result depends upon both.

For accuracy, I carefully set my fence on my table saw.

For repeatability I keep the stock firmly against the fence. 

For the chop saw, I do the same when I clamp the stop block and bank the stock firmly against the stop block.

Accuracy stems from the setup; repeatability stems from the execution. 

 

[MikeGE]

The original post was probably a legitimate review from a long-time lurker who decided not to continue to participate on the boards.  The necro-bump (resurrection of the thread from the grave) was likely a spam bot that was/is supposed to return at a later date to edit their post with a spam link.

You were correct.  The spam bot edited the post to add a URL.

 

[Mini Me]

BTW, the tablesaw DRO is specced at +/-0.002" per foot. I periodically check my rip results with a digital caliper.

I set all fences on each machine to the same setting using a gauge I had made. I can't see using two different machines with fences cutting to a different dimension is helpful at all. The cheap DRO's which are all very accurate and now available for under $100 make setting fences to an accurate dimension are a game changer and make INCRA fences as one example obsolete and my INRA fences I have are being sold as soon as I have the time to set up DRO's on my machines. Wixey are also very expensive and hard to use compared to the new DRO's now available and I sold mine, it is a pity Wixey have not moved on as they made the original digital break through for the hobbyist. 

 

[smorgasbord]

...make INCRA fences as one example obsolete and my INRA fences I have are being sold as soon as I have the time to set up DRO's on my machines. Wixey are also very expensive and hard to use compared to the new DRO's now available and I sold mine, it is a pity Wixey have not moved on as they made the original digital break through for the hobbyist.

Yeah, it took Wixey a year to add to his DRO firmware the ability to measure rip fences to the left of the tablesaw blade. But, when he did, you could buy just the unit alone for pretty cheap. Matter of fact, he sells all the parts separately.

I still have Incra racks on my tablesaw sled fence and for my miter gauge. What are you going to use there?

 

[Mini Me]

I still have Incra racks on my tablesaw sled fence and for my miter gauge. What are you going to use there?

I have a K3 slider so I don't need a sled and it doesn't have a mitre gauge either. I have fitted DRO's on both the rip fence and the cross cut fence, the mitre saw bench is getting a DRO and as is the bandsaw simply because they are so cheap so why not. It is more about being fuss free on the bandsaw than anything else. I must admit I am over the INCRA stuff, while repeatable it is a bit fussy to use and far far more expensive than the DRO's now available. 

 

[simnick]

The cheap DRO's which are all very accurate and now available for under $100 make setting fences to an accurate dimension are a game changer and make INCRA fences as one example obsolete and my INRA fences I have are being sold as soon as I have the time to set up DRO's on my machines. Wixey are also very expensive and hard to use compared to the new DRO's now available and I sold mine, it is a pity Wixey have not moved on as they made the original digital break through for the hobbyist.

Can you give me a pointer to some of the better DROs? I have the Wixley, but it got uninstalled while everything is in storage for a shop move, and rather than reinstall it, maybe I can put something better on.

 

[Mini Me]

The cheap DRO's which are all very accurate and now available for under $100 make setting fences to an accurate dimension are a game changer and make INCRA fences as one example obsolete and my INRA fences I have are being sold as soon as I have the time to set up DRO's on my machines. Wixey are also very expensive and hard to use compared to the new DRO's now available and I sold mine, it is a pity Wixey have not moved on as they made the original digital break through for the hobbyist.

Can you give me a pointer to some of the better DROs? I have the Wixley, but it got uninstalled while everything is in storage for a shop move, and rather than reinstall it, maybe I can put something better on.

I will start a new thread in other tools, I think we have derailed this enough without getting deep into DRO's.

 

[smorgasbord]

I have the Shinwa 60cm bevel on its way to me now. I will probably also order a Wixey digital protractor since its spec is +/-0.10º versus everyone else's +/-0.2º. And then I'll compare the two and also against my 90º and 45º "squares," which are some pretty high DIN spec.

One thing I'm interested in is seeing if I can adopt the triangle to determine angle aspect of the Shinwa to a shop-built (CNC) mechanism to use on my table saw sled for setting accurate angles. The large protractor of the Rockler and Sullivan sleds might be better, but maybe not. It'll be fun to experiment.

 

[Michael Kellough]

The refresh rate is also important on digital protractors. Most of them let you move a shocking amount (relative to how much move the blade on a table saw when making a fine adjustment) before the display changes. And very few of them specify the refresh rate.

 

[Packard]

I have the Shinwa 60cm bevel on its way to me now. I will probably also order a Wixey digital protractor since its spec is +/-0.10º versus everyone else's +/-0.2º. And then I'll compare the two and also against my 90º and 45º "squares," which are some pretty high DIN spec.

One thing I'm interested in is seeing if I can adopt the triangle to determine angle aspect of the Shinwa to a shop-built (CNC) mechanism to use on my table saw sled for setting accurate angles. The large protractor of the Rockler and Sullivan sleds might be better, but maybe not. It'll be fun to experiment.

Let us know what you think of the Shinwa triangle.  I am debating whether to get one myself. I have this Shinwa marking gage and I find myself using it far more often than my Starrett combination square.  They make an aluminum version too. The clear (smoke) version lets you see markings under the square.  I think I paid $6.00 for it a few years ago.

 

[smorgasbord]

I noticed that just in the past couple of days, Woodpecker's issued a new (slightly) version of their Bevel Gauge:https://www.woodpeck.com/ott-blade-gauge-2024.html

It's basically a weight that hold 12" long sticks of steel that have their ends accurately cut to different angles:
[attachimg=1]

On the good side, note that in the picture above, the gauge is held flat on the tablesaw surface and so is able to "ignore" that the insert plate is below the table surface. So that would be better than the small machinist angle blocks shown upthread.

On the bad side (besides the almost $200 cost), if your insert is too high in the middle it won't register right. And ultimate accuracy depends on how flat the blade body is.

I could see something like this being useful in some situations, but I think a regular sliding bevel gauge set against something accurate would be more flexible and cheaper.

 

[Packard]

I used a small drafting triangle to set a 30 degree angle on my table saw.  I think it is more important to kneel down so that the surface of the table saw is at eye level, than what 30 degree angle device you use. 

Having a back light so you see that the triangle is kissing the blade from top to bottom is a big help too.

 

[smorgasbord]

Just a quick update:
I've received both the large Shinwa 3-arm bevel triangle and the large Wixey digital angle finder. I'm pretty happy with both at first blush, but will do some work playing around with them - I'll post photos soon.

This came in my inbox this morning:
[attachimg=1]

But, of course when I go the product page, they admit:

[attachimg=2]

The Wixey is specced as accurate to 0.1º. No spec on the Shinwa. My first compare the two attempts show them both to be precise for some definition of precise (at least they agree at 90º, 45º, 22.5º all "spot on").

 

[smorgasbord]

So, here are some preliminary results of the Shinwa #62662 60cm triangular bevel against the Wixey WR418 18" Digital Protractor. Note these are just comparing them to each other, not to known hard reference angles, since I don't have any of those with me at this point in time.

My process was to set the Shinwa, then measure the outside angle of that with the Wixey.
[attachimg=1]

For 45 and 75, they were both spot on in agreement:
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]

Even for 22.5º, which requires splitting the distance with your eye, the results for me (twice) were spot on:
[attachimg=4]

At 90º I got an 89.9º readout on the Wixey one time, then 90º two other times. Note that there is some play in the Shinwa alignment guide until you lock it down. I think it is possible to push it one way or the other to get a slight angle change.  But, you can see from the mm markings above that the scale (in this 60cm size) is quite large, reducing the effects of any inaccuracy.

As you move up the angle scale to higher numbers, I believe the Shinwa gets less accurate. Here's one shot at the 120º mark:
[attachimg=5]

[attachimg=6]

Maybe I'm wrong in assuming the Wixey is more accurate than the Shinwa at these angles, but when you look at the Shinwa scale, the degree markings get close the higher the number value. The distance between 119º and 120º on the Shinwa is just over a mm, while the distance between 59º and 60º is easily more than 5mm (closer to 6mm).  Once you get below 30º, the spacing gets tighter, too. The sweet spot of the Shina is from about 30º to about 85º.

I have some DIN graded squares and 45º reference triangles at home, and I'll compare against those when I can.

In the meantime, I think I'm going to keep both the Wixey and Shinwa. The Shinwa is less useful because it is graduated only in full degrees (I have had to split to get 22.5º by eye), and you even have to remember that the graduations vary as you go up and down so you're not going to get 0.1º of setting accuracy off of full and middle degree increments. That said, I think I might build my own Shinwa style arm for my tablesaw cross-cut sled for angle cuts once I figure out the math to get in-between whole degree angles.  With 5mm between degree marks, it should be pretty easy set 1/10º marks for the sweet spot of that geometry.

Then again, the Wixey is big enough that maybe I could mount it to the sled and just have a way to fix the arm as a back fence. The triangular nature of the Shinwa means that it holds its setting really well. They show people using it as a circular saw guide for cutting rafter angles and such, and I bet it does well at that.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Let us know what you think of the Shinwa triangle.  I am debating whether to get one myself. I have this Shinwa marking gage and I find myself using it far more often than my Starrett combination square.  They make an aluminum version too. The clear (smoke) version lets you see markings under the square.  I think I paid $6.00 for it a few years ago.

I have had the aluminum version for a year or so. It works great for continuing your lines across adjacent faces. I use it as a saddle square quite often too. Occasionally though, I would like the angle to be on the other side too, especially since I have a dedicated saddle square.

 

[Packard]

I got the clear plastic square because I thought seeing through it was somehow useful, though at the moment I cannot think what that advantage was.

 

[Mini Me]

The refresh rate is also important on digital protractors. Most of them let you move a shocking amount (relative to how much move the blade on a table saw when making a fine adjustment) before the display changes. And very few of them specify the refresh rate.

Michael highlights a very important point when using digital gauges/readouts, the refresh rate he highlights is better known as the resolution rate and that might make it a bit easier to find. In some DRO's it can be changed as needed.

 

[Packard]

So, here are some preliminary results of the Shinwa #62662 60cm triangular bevel against the Wixey WR418 18" Digital Protractor. Note these are just comparing them to each other, not to known hard reference angles, since I don't have any of those with me at this point in time.

My process was to set the Shinwa, then measure the outside angle of that with the Wixey.
[attachimg=1]

For 45 and 75, they were both spot on in agreement:
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]

Even for 22.5º, which requires splitting the distance with your eye, the results for me (twice) were spot on:
[attachimg=4]

At 90º I got an 89.9º readout on the Wixey one time, then 90º two other times. Note that there is some play in the Shinwa alignment guide until you lock it down. I think it is possible to push it one way or the other to get a slight angle change.  But, you can see from the mm markings above that the scale (in this 60cm size) is quite large, reducing the effects of any inaccuracy.

As you move up the angle scale to higher numbers, I believe the Shinwa gets less accurate. Here's one shot at the 120º mark:
[attachimg=5]

[attachimg=6]

Maybe I'm wrong in assuming the Wixey is more accurate than the Shinwa at these angles, but when you look at the Shinwa scale, the degree markings get close the higher the number value. The distance between 119º and 120º on the Shinwa is just over a mm, while the distance between 59º and 60º is easily more than 5mm (closer to 6mm).  Once you get below 30º, the spacing gets tighter, too. The sweet spot of the Shina is from about 30º to about 85º.

I have some DIN graded squares and 45º reference triangles at home, and I'll compare against those when I can.

In the meantime, I think I'm going to keep both the Wixey and Shinwa. The Shinwa is less useful because it is graduated only in full degrees (I have had to split to get 22.5º by eye), and you even have to remember that the graduations vary as you go up and down so you're not going to get 0.1º of setting accuracy off of full and middle degree increments. That said, I think I might build my own Shinwa style arm for my tablesaw cross-cut sled for angle cuts once I figure out the math to get in-between whole degree angles.  With 5mm between degree marks, it should be pretty easy set 1/10º marks for the sweet spot of that geometry.

Then again, the Wixey is big enough that maybe I could mount it to the sled and just have a way to fix the arm as a back fence. The triangular nature of the Shinwa means that it holds its setting really well. They show people using it as a circular saw guide for cutting rafter angles and such, and I bet it does well at that.

I guess you could check the angle by using the mm scale and doing the math.  Or use an online angle calculator to check it. The mm scale is marked in smaller increments.  I might do the calculations a few times just to check the accuracy.  But it would be way too cumbersome for regular usage.  I think I will get the same sized one that you got.  I suspect it is accurate enough for the type of work I generally do (building cabinets).

Thanks for the report.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/angle-calculator-carpenter-square-d_1917.html

When I need to feel confident on a measurement, I fall back to mechanical devices.  That probably is because I grew up using them.

Starrett’s is about $130.00.  Mitutoyo’s is about $45.00.  And lots of Chinese ones for less than $20.00.  General sells theirs for about $15.00.  I would probably pick Mitutoyo’s version as a best value.