Woodworking Pencils, Mechanical and otherwise

[peter halle]

I feel that, sometimes, the process of collecting nice-looking tools is more important than actually building something with them. At least it has been for me (as a hobbyst) sometimes, but I have learned that re-visiting my shopping cart after 4 or 5 days has saved me a lot of money!

I admit that I have several tools that I have never used after feeling that I just had to have them.  But I generally also misplace them.  That is twice as bad!   [big grin]

Peter

 

[RONWEN]

Well, I respectfully disagree with you but this is one of those debates where you will never convince the other side so why bother trying?

Here's an example of where a 0.9mm line is way too wide- marking for inlay. You could be left with a very noticeable gap between the inlay and the surrounding wood. Here you need a lot more precision and a smaller pencil line.

Many times I have used the micro adjust feature on the OF1400 and the edge guide and I am sure I am not alone. I can feel with my finger a lot less than 0.5mm.

But the point about the shopping cart is spot on. I often remove items a day or two later when the euphoria has subsided!

I agree, I look at pencils as marking tools that require choosing the appropriate one (.3mm, .5mm, .7mm, .9mm, ball pen, 3mm lead, marking knife or even carpenter pencils) for the task at hand i.e. when laying out wall stud locations a marking knife isn't the best choice  [wink].
I also agree about what the finger can "feel" -- the finger nail is the best sensor there, most people can feel a .002" to .003" step or mismatch sliding the end of the nail across the surface.    

 

[Ken Nagrod]

I agree with Richard and Ron's posts, but I also feel in response to Irvin's posts that precision is a personal thing, so what I consider appropriate for the task at hand might be very different than what someone else does.  That's why I'm not agreeing with the "majority" statement, unless Irvin would site several examples that would convince me otherwise.

Ron, I thought you preferred a hatchet for laying out wall stud locations?  [big grin]

 

[irvin00]

My point is very simple, actually: let's asume you get your pencil to the exact thickness because you value/need that level of precision. That's fine and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, most guys, in my experience, do not own a shop where every tool is calibrated or can deliver the same level of precision. So, the original ultra-precise measurement is wasted as soon as you hit the 'lesser tools'. For example: aligning your line to the Festool rails by eye, cutting your wood on a Ridgid/DeWalt, Jet or any generic table saw, working with a hand plane, using some types of wood or even suffering the ultimate betrayal: your skill level is not the one that can extract the most from your tools!

Most woodworking does not need (or even exhibit) that type of precision. Look around you and you will see that even the most expensive furniture has the little flaws that we, hobbysts, worry so much about.

But, I, like most, lust after a high-end, shiny new tool I find. The lesson, for me at least, is that sometimes too much can be just that: too much. Even when it comes to precision.

I agree with Richard and Ron's posts, but I also feel in response to Irvin's posts that precision is a personal thing, so what I consider appropriate for the task at hand might be very different than what someone else does.  That's why I'm not agreeing with the "majority" statement, unless Irvin would site several examples that would convince me otherwise.

Ron, I thought you preferred a hatchet for laying out wall stud locations?  [big grin]

 

[RONWEN]

I agree with Richard and Ron's posts, but I also feel in response to Irvin's posts that precision is a personal thing, so what I consider appropriate for the task at hand might be very different than what someone else does.  That's why I'm not agreeing with the "majority" statement, unless Irvin would site several examples that would convince me otherwise.

Ron, I thought you preferred a hatchet for laying out wall stud locations?  [big grin]

[big grin] Actually, a chain saw... [eek]    I'm relatively new to furniture making, in one of my early lives I was a toolmaker so I'm a little over-driven for accuracy that probably doesn't mean anything.  Since I don't do woodworking for profit I seem to get satisfaction in trying to be precise even when it doesn't show.  [unsure]

 

[Ken Nagrod]

My point is very simple, actually: let's assume you get your pencil to the exact thickness because you value/need that level of precision. That's fine and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, most guys, in my experience, do not own a shop where every tool is calibrated or can deliver the same level of precision. So, the original ultra-precise measurement is wasted as soon as you hit the 'lesser tools'. For example: aligning your line to the Festool rails by eye, cutting your wood on a Ridgid/DeWalt, Jet or any generic table saw, working with a hand plane, using some types of wood or even suffering the ultimate betrayal: your skill level is not the one that can extract the most from your tools!

Most woodworking does not need (or even exhibit) that type of precision. Look around you and you will see that even the most expensive furniture has the little flaws that we, hobbyists, worry so much about.

But, I, like most, lust after a high-end, shiny new tool I find. The lesson, for me at least, is that sometimes too much can be just that: too much. Even when it comes to precision.

Irvin,

I understand where you're coming from and no arguing those points, however, and this is just the way I prefer to do things and my opinion which is not laid out to force upon anyone reading this:

I feel that guys that make furniture using hand tools or a mix of power and hand tools that don't use some form of precision, usually have to fidget with their joints to get them tight or loose or lining up, etc. doing a lot of tweaking that could have been reduced or avoided all together.  Also, cabinetry might be a little bit off to the eye, holes might not line up and things frustrate the person doing the final assembly because of that.

I look at most things I'm making in regards to multiplicity error and how to keep it as low as possible.  Your final result is only as good as your weakest link or measurement.  When I start with as high a precision as possible throughout the project, there will be something that doesn't achieve that level and the more things that don't, the increase in error.  By starting high, my low is usually very acceptable.

I understand that most people aren't making cabinetry on CNC equipment and therefore the error is greater, especially including the human factor like you mentioned with lining up a guide rail to pencil marks or having your table saw adjusted flawlessly.

I've seen many times where on a framing job, guys won't put a lot of care into things like stud placement on layout marks.  They say things like, "So what if it's off by an 1/8 here or 1/4 there" or more.  When you do that enough down a wall those sheets of drywall ain't gonna land on a stud at some point like they were meant to and somehow that door or window opening doesn't line up or a roof truss doesn't land over a stud for proper load transfer that the architect spec'd or later down the line the trim guy is cursing at the framer who's long gone --- just extreme examples I'm throwing out.

 

[jmbfestool]

My point is very simple, actually: let's assume you get your pencil to the exact thickness because you value/need that level of precision. That's fine and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, most guys, in my experience, do not own a shop where every tool is calibrated or can deliver the same level of precision. So, the original ultra-precise measurement is wasted as soon as you hit the 'lesser tools'. For example: aligning your line to the Festool rails by eye, cutting your wood on a Ridgid/DeWalt, Jet or any generic table saw, working with a hand plane, using some types of wood or even suffering the ultimate betrayal: your skill level is not the one that can extract the most from your tools!

Most woodworking does not need (or even exhibit) that type of precision. Look around you and you will see that even the most expensive furniture has the little flaws that we, hobbyists, worry so much about.

But, I, like most, lust after a high-end, shiny new tool I find. The lesson, for me at least, is that sometimes too much can be just that: too much. Even when it comes to precision.

Irvin,

I understand where you're coming from and no arguing those points, however, and this is just the way I prefer to do things and my opinion which is not laid out to force upon anyone reading this:

I feel that guys that make furniture using hand tools or a mix of power and hand tools that don't use some form of precision, usually have to fidget with their joints to get them tight or loose or lining up, etc. doing a lot of tweaking that could have been reduced or avoided all together.  Also, cabinetry might be a little bit off to the eye, holes might not line up and things frustrate the person doing the final assembly because of that.

I look at most things I'm making in regards to multiplicity error and how to keep it as low as possible.  Your final result is only as good as your weakest link or measurement.  When I start with as high a precision as possible throughout the project, there will be something that doesn't achieve that level and the more things that don't, the increase in error.  By starting high, my low is usually very acceptable.

I understand that most people aren't making cabinetry on CNC equipment and therefore the error is greater, especially including the human factor like you mentioned with lining up a guide rail to pencil marks or having your table saw adjusted flawlessly.

I've seen many times where on a framing job, guys won't put a lot of care into things like stud placement on layout marks.  They say things like, "So what if it's off by an 1/8 here or 1/4 there" or more.  When you do that enough down a wall those sheets of drywall ain't gonna land on a stud at some point like they were meant to and somehow that door or window opening doesn't line up or a roof truss doesn't land over a stud for proper load transfer that the architect spec'd or later down the line the trim guy is cursing at the framer who's long gone --- just extreme examples I'm throwing out.

Haahaa very extreme ken lol from a half mm pencil line to a 1/4 or more out Stud!  That's alot of half mm out lol haaahaa lol

 

[Ken Nagrod]

[thumbs up] JMB.

I was just running all over the place with my meaning.  Not trying to conjoin every thought.

I have a feeling if you show up to a framing job with your Woodpeckers squares and caliper, you might not make it home for dinner.  [big grin]

 

[AlexThePalex]

Well, about the required precision, I don't like pencils in general because the line is about 1 mm wide and that leaves you with a possible 1 mm error. It also depends on what you're building, say you're laying out a frame for drywal then a millimeter isn't so important and in those cases I don't mind using a pencil.

But if you're making a cabinet and the top and bottom board have a 1 mm difference then you're gonna have a problem fitting the door(s) in.