You never know what will happen once you walk in the door

[peter halle]

I just wanted to take a minute to update all those who offered ideas and encouragement, and also document the wins and losses for anyone who wishes to do something similar in the future

I mentioned that I had a lead on shop space and I did rent it.  Unfortunately that space just didn't work for me and I had to give it up.  BUT, 20 feet away I moved into a larger space - 15 X 30 with electric (1 20 amp 120 Volt circuit) and heat and air conditioning.  My cost -$250 per month.  The 15 feet of width makes all the difference.  Additionally, the electric panel for the whole block of spaces is just on the other side of my wall if I decide to add circuits, and the primary retrun duct for the spaces is in my unit so I will be the warmest and the coolest.  The cost difference between the spaces was minimal.

The influx of work turned out to be, well, disappointing.  I made the first stand out in my driveway and delivered the bottom portion.  I wasn't happy with the top portion and decided to rebuild it.  It was delivered, I got paid and then the waiting started.  Until about a week ago I was in a flux.  I was checking for future work and the pipeline had gone dry.  Why?  It turned out that a local cabinet shop had gotten the work because of customer pressure.  They did turn out some good pieces.  The pipeline was stopped until the backlog could be taken care of.  Now it is time to show or shut up on my end.

I have spent the time since I rented space enjoying what so many of you have - indoor space.  It has allowed me to think in different ways and start to understand better the ideas that you guys have presented.  I took the time to start building a two stack sysport.  I built a router table and installed a lift recommended by many of you guys.  I reused parts of a router fence and repurposed it for my needs.  I built a cut table using 2/3 of a sheet of plywood.  I experimented and sometimes sat and pondered.  I built portable extensions for my MFT/3 and also a micro extension for my Kapex.  I got Qwas dogs and rails dogs and one of Ron Wenner's Domiplates.  

I am currently finishing my second stand, and the quality and ease of construction can't compare to the first one I did.  Why?  The major reason is the experiences that you guys have shared here to help educate others.  Having a roof over the head helps also, but that is secondary.

Just wanted to bring the thread up to date and also say thanks to anyone who has shared ideas, thoughts, and experiences here.

Peter

 

[RONWEN]

What a great opportunity for you Peter!  Sounds like some hefty timber & XL700 in your future.  [thumbs up]

 

[tiralie]

It turned out that a local cabinet shop had gotten the work because of customer pressure.

Really? amazing.
So they gave you the work but then took it away 'cause customer(s) wanted the cabinet shop to do it?
Jeeze the politics of getting and keeping a customer.

Now it is time to show or shut up on my end.

I am not sure I understand. Was the first one a test and the customer is giving you another chance?

I am currently finishing my second stand, and the quality and ease of construction can't compare to the first one I did.

It didn't happen if there's no pictures [big grin]

Tim

 

[peter halle]

Tim,

When the aquarium shop shut down their own cabinet making operations they had a back log.  They had to do something.  They were at decision point when I walked in the door after not coming in for at least six months.  Some of the customers had been put on hold for more than 4 months.  They made the right decision in my mind and went with the cabinet shop.  Remember, I was untried and untested.

The cabinet shop could have easily had all the business, but their lead time per cabinet was 5 weeks.  On at a time.  Then they botched several.  They actually have to have a sample stand to this day in their shop to refer to.  My lead time mixed in with my other work, here, my life, is about ten days.  I wasn't happy with the first one that I built although it was up to their standards.  The second one is what the first one should have been, so:

To the best of my knowledge, below are the first images of a project that I have completed to be posted to the FOG.  I have posted images of other stuff, but I think this is the first project.

The customer wanted a stand for a 90 gallon aquarium to be built in pine and left unfinished.  Believe it or not the future owner has a shop and has built cabinets before.  His wife wanted the project done quickly, so so paid to have it done.  We talked them into doing maple instead.

[attachimg=#]
An overall front shot

[attachimg=#]
Front of cabinet and also light canopy

[attachimg=#]
Door image

[attachimg=#]
Side view of light canopy.  Actually more complex to do than base cabinet

[attachimg=#]
Light canopy opened.  Allows for maintenance and feeding.

[attachimg=#]
Modified dominoes used as indexing pins

[attachimg=#]
Blum hinges and Grass soft close

[attachimg=#]
All wrapped up for delivery tomorrow.

I called the aquarium store owner yesterday and gave him a status report.  I stopped by with these images today and he is more excited than I have seen him in a long time.  I learned more things during this project and will continue as time goes on.  My guess is that I will have another one to do within the week.

Peter

 

[PaulMarcel]

Nicely done project, Peter.  I'm sure aquarium shop dude will send you more business.  Then you can rebrand your FOG attire for the Fish Owners Group.  [tongue]

 

[RONWEN]

Very nice!

 

[peter halle]

Ron,

I have to admit that one of the things I learned out of this project involved your wonderful, should be bought by every domino user, Domiplate.

When I was attaching the face frames to the sides using the Domiplate I wasn't getting flush edges.  I admit that in this project there are 2 tiny veneer sand to so thin that it might be visible to see the underlying layers.

In my mind I tried to blame your plate, but the plate is a reference.  As is turned out my contractors table saw had slipped and the edges were not perpendicular.  When using the plate, if you are having alignment issues, check your stock to make sure that faces are parallel and edges are perpendicular.  That will effect the alignment in 90 degree joining operations.

Ron,  your accessory rocks and made this so much easier.  Today I transported my 1940's 4" jointer (unused since before 2003) to my shop.  Now it is going to be even more clearly my issue.

Peter

 

[Brice Burrell]

Is that a piece of framing lumber in the shot of the hinge??

 

[tiralie]

When the aquarium shop shut down their own cabinet making operations they had a back log. 

Peter;
I wasn't aware that the aquarium shop had their own or would even have their own cabinet shop. Makes sense though.

They made the right decision in my mind and went with the cabinet shop.  Remember, I was untried and untested.

Ya, cause basically they screwed up and you got the business. [big grin]

When I was attaching the face frames to the sides using the Domiplate I wasn't getting flush edges.  I admit that in this project there are 2 tiny veneer sand to so thin that it might be visible to see the underlying layers.

Get a lipping planer. It'll take years off your life.

All wrapped up for delivery tomorrow.

Looks good Peter. I hope the owner puts a nice finish on it.

I learned more things during this project and will continue as time goes on.  My guess is that I will have another one to do within the week.

Good to hear. Hopefully some day we will meet and you can tell me how to actually build a cabinet to hold that much water.

Is that a piece of framing lumber in the shot of the hinge??

I think this answers my question...how does one build a cabinet strong enough to support 751.5lbs (90 gallons of water)

Tim,

 

[tiralie]

Blum hinges and Grass soft close

Peter:
Would the Compact Blumotion hinges been cheaper than both the Blum hinges and the Grass soft close?
Tim

 

[peter halle]

Blum hinges and Grass soft close

Peter:
Would the Compact Blumotion hinges been cheaper than both the Blum hinges and the Grass soft close?
Tim

Tim,

I didn't check out the prices on the Blum Blumotion hinges.  He normally doesn't add the soft close although I saw one after I bought the Grass closers that the cabinet shop had installed something similar to what I used on a recent stand although what they used was installed (maybe incorrectly) was on the non hinge side of the door.  I already had the hinges and when picking up the lumber and plywood the Grass soft impact closers were in a bowl on the counter.  They were less than $3.50 each (1 per door) so I thought that they would be a cheap gimme.  

Tim and Brice, the structural framing for this stand (as engineered for him and followed by me) is just a 2 x 4 skeleton with the 2 x 4's set on edge at the floor and aquarium levels and a singler 2 x 4 upright in each corner.  Manufacturer made stands in this size would have omitted the 2 x 4 skeleton.  Heck, my 93 gallon at home has a manufacturer supplied stand is even made out of mdf.  In his 25 years of doing this he has never had a stand failure so I guess that it works.

Peter

EDIT:  From what I understand, if a customer wants a stand with a cabinet style toe kick it complicates things.

 

[harry_]

Peter, would it really though? if you just move the 2x4 uprights back 4 inches to allow the toe-kick you would still be well within the parameters for cantilevered support. no?

 

[Tinker]

This is not about fish tanks, but about effects of extreme weight where floor not designed adequately.  I am sure that anybody able to afford tanks such as you are describing has been smart enough to have looked into the engineering to shore up the floor.

Many moons ago, I sort of inherited a piano (I have many fond memories of time spent around that piano.  This is not the place for those stories, but they do reside in my mind as well as in my computer.) I am not musically inclined, only played (translate: made noises) a harmonica for several years.  I never had to worry about a chair collapsing as I sat in it to play. This piano, I was told at one time by a professional piano mover, was one of the very heaviest ever constructed in its upright class.  I wanted somebody that would appreciate to have it.  My son decided he might like to have it as his father-in-law was a good piano player.  FIL never got the chance to play it as he passed away soon afterwards.  My son thought he might like to keep it in case his son might have inherited the talent.

About six months after putting it in his living room, he started noticing that some windows could no longer be opened.  Doors were hitting at tops or bottoms when opened and closed.  Upon a close inspection, we determined the weight of the piano, being installed in an early prefab house, was sagging the floor joists and pulling the walls in or out, depending of the direction of forces.  He had to get rid of the piano or rebuild his floor framing.  Eventually, maybe, his whole house. [scared]

We discussed the problem with our daughter and she decided she would like to learn to play the piano.  After taking a quick trip to her house in Maryland, I determined what needed to be done about shoring up the floor where the piano was to be placed.  My daughter’s (then) husband had some carpenter friends who did the shoring according to my specs and I went back to Connecticut to pick up the piano. 

Long story short, my daughter has moved several times since acquiring that heavy piece of furniture.  It has been installed in some of the houses and in cold storage at other times.  With each installation into her home, we have inspected the floor support very carefully. 

I have never studied how pianos are constructed, but the guy who has moved that monster each time for our daughter pointed out that the framing, some 3x6 oak is about twice what most pianos are constructed.  I am sure the tanks you are supporting are a whole lot heavier than that piano.  I’m not debating here, but I sure am surprised at single 2x4 for framing of the support cabinets.  I guess having been a mason by trade, I am always inclined to over design any support systems I have been involved with.

Incidentally, that is an incredible job you did.  Our ex-SIL had a 40 gal tank.  His support was an open stand of stainless steel.  I like what you have done much better.  I am sure you will get many referrals.  You will not need to advertise once word gets around. Your work is the best advertisement.
Tinker

 

[tiralie]

This is not about fish tanks, but about effects of extreme weight where floor not designed adequately.  I am sure that anybody able to afford tanks such as you are describing has been smart enough to have looked into the engineering to shore up the floor.

Ya, making sure your floor can actually support that much weight was something I wondered about with these large tanks. I suppose a water bed has as much weight (really don't know) but it's spread over a greater area.
Tim

 

[peter halle]

Tinker,

That's a great story!  Thank you for the compliment.  I have no desire to freelance at this point in time.  Let him have the ultimate insurance issues and the engineering issues.  Regarding weight - He told me a story about one of clients.  The client was in waiting to be helped in the store when he looked over and asked if his setup was the most expensive one he had ever done.  The store owner said "Nope".  Was it the second one?  "Nope"   Certainly in the top five?  "Nope"  Top ten?  "I am not really comfortable talking about this.  Let's just say that you are probably in the top 25, BUT your setup is the coolest!"

Apparently as you drive down the street you can see the lights from the aquarium and a glimpse of the aquarium from one end of the house to the other on the second floor.  It is installed in his office which is installed over the top of the two car garage.  There is not a a support post in the garage.  The aquarium sits in the middle of the floor as a divider and is visible from all four sides.  The floor framing is 16" wide flange I joists on 12 inch centers.  I assume that there is a steel beam hidden, but do not know for sure.  Two engineers had to sign off on the floor design prior to construction of the house.  Every time a service call is made to that house they look at the garage ceiling to see if there is a sag.  

Hey, I guess everyone needs a hobby.  I can't wait to consolidate my tanks and reduce my electrical costs.  The money saved could be put to use for more Festoys!

Peter

 

[peter halle]

It has been some time since I added to this thread.  That's been because there hasn't been any business on this end.  Bummer.  BUT when I was at JLCLive and the Festool Connect event I was waiting to hear about a major project.  It was confirmed today that the project appears to be a GO and unless something unexpected happens I plan to document it here as a full separate thread.  Waiting to hear from the interior decorator about decor to compliment styles with.

What is it?  It is only two aquarium stands  for a mountain home.  One will be designed for a custom built 1,000 gallon (approximate) saltwater aquarium and also for a smaller 220 gallon.

Hope you will stick around for the ride.

Peter

 

[ScotF]

Peter,

That's great...glad you are getting some projects.  I enjoyed reading all about this project and look forward to your next build.  Hope there are lots of pics too.

Scot 

 

[Alan m]

It has been some time since I added to this thread.  That's been because there hasn't been any business on this end.  Bummer.  BUT when I was at JLCLive and the Festool Connect event I was waiting to hear about a major project.  It was confirmed today that the project appears to be a GO and unless something unexpected happens I plan to document it here as a full separate thread.  Waiting to hear from the interior decorator about decor to compliment styles with.

What is it?  It is only two aquarium stands  for a mountain home.  One will be designed for a custom built 1,000 gallon (approximate) saltwater aquarium and also for a smaller 220 gallon.

Hope you will stick around for the ride.

Peter

congrats peter.
1000 gallons. thats a lot. a us gallon is 2.5 liters isnt it. thats going to weight a lot . going to need some serious structure under that

 

[peter halle]

Thanks Alan!

I can't wait to see design drawings because as you said - this thing will be heavy, probably 10 to 11 thousand pounds, but my guess is that when people see what is the structure they will be shocked by the relative lack of structure.  Even our friend "Ick" has experience with stands and has commented to me about the lack of structure.  Maybe one day he will post about the really cool setup he did.  That  would be mind boggling.

Peter

 

[tiralie]

It was confirmed today that the project appears to be a GO and unless something unexpected happens I plan to document it here as a full separate thread.  Waiting to hear from the interior decorator about decor to compliment styles with.

What is it?  It is only two aquarium stands  for a mountain home.  One will be designed for a custom built 1,000 gallon (approximate) saltwater aquarium and also for a smaller 220 gallon.

Hope you will stick around for the ride.

Peter

Cool.
Good thing you have your space/shop to work in.
Tim