2700mm rail

[bonesbr549]

The packaging is a mystery.  After all the comments when I started the thread, I looked at a couple shorter ones that had the masonite packaging at a local store and they had masonite top&bottom with wood frame all the way around the perimeter.  This package only had one piece (visible in the second pic) of wood at the bottom and the other three sides were bare.  You could see the staple holes where they were at one time.  Packing tape was wrapped around it in a few places but other than that it was free to just slide around edge to edge.  The damage pictured appears to be from where something shifted and the package slid (hard) up against another package or something (fork lift maybe who knows) and shifted and hit that opject jaming it up.  It was not superficial. It's jammed  and would impact the saw's smooth path. 

My question is who altered the packaging? Hopefully Festool has not changed anything and cut 3 strips of pine to save a few pennies.  Other that that small dig it was otherwise ok.  It's a shame.  I work in manufacturing and those reworks loose for everybody.  The customer (me) the shipper, the dealer etc.  You don't want reworks on anything.  On the bright side, my E-mails were answered last night even one as late as 10:30 PM EST and Bob's asked if I just wanted a refund so I gould get it some where else.  I said no just send another one.  I did not need for an urgent job (sadly I don't use festool for a living). Shipping damage is not Bob's fault.  Matter of fact the LR32 sys that arrived had so much bubble wrap taped aound it , I could have played basket ball with it and a gorilla could have delivered it and it would have been ok.  Bob's going to make it right. Another one will arrive so the world will not end.

 

[Bob Marino]

The packaging is a mystery.  After all the comments when I started the thread, I looked at a couple shorter ones that had the masonite packaging at a local store and they had masonite top&bottom with wood frame all the way around the perimeter.   This package only had one piece (visible in the second pic) of wood at the bottom and the other three sides were bare.  You could see the staple holes where they were at one time.  Packing tape was wrapped around it in a few places but other than that it was free to just slide around edge to edge.  The damage pictured appears to be from where something shifted and the package slid (hard) up against another package or something (fork lift maybe who knows) and shifted and hit that opject jaming it up.  It was not superficial. It's jammed  and would impact the saw's smooth path.  

My question is who altered the packaging? Hopefully Festool has not changed anything and cut 3 strips of pine to save a few pennies.  Other that that small dig it was otherwise ok.   It's a shame.  I work in manufacturing and those reworks loose for everybody.  The customer (me) the shipper, the dealer etc.  You don't want reworks on anything.  On the bright side, my E-mails were answered last night even one as late as 10:30 PM EST and Bob's asked if I just wanted a refund so I gould get it some where else.  I said no just send another one.  I did not need for an urgent job (sadly I don't use festool for a living). Shipping damage is not Bob's fault.  Matter of fact the LR32 sys that arrived had so much bubble wrap taped aound it , I could have played basket ball with it and a gorilla could have delivered it and it would have been ok.  Bob's going to make it right. Another one will arrive so the world will not end.

Yep, will be speaking to my warehouse and UPS Monday to see what happened to the packaging. As Bones mentioned, we tend to "overwrap" and error on the safe side. I think cutting down on protective measures is one of the worst examples of "false economy" for any dealer/shipper. All these larger rails have masonite top and bottom and wooden sides....and I only wish ALL RAILS - even the 32" rail, would be packaged that way. In my time I have seen UPS  perform "corrective measures" - for lack of a better word, in the field and huge holes in boxes taped over.
Jonny, if it were just a question of a damaged splinterguard I would agree with you, but this damage was different. Anyhow, no one needs too accept a rail like this and I will get another going out ASAP.

Bob

 

[bonesbr549]

Bob, ya know I've got several rails now that are in the cardboard boxes and they are built real well from an engineering standpoint.  The way it folds and strength is enhanced how it wrapws over the end.  I keep them in the original packaging for storage.  I also like how you can open and close them with ease.  In other words you do not have to destroy the packaging to get the product.    Of course the fact that they are short helps keep the need for something stronger and that 2700 has some flex in the middle.  I'm not an engineer so I'll leave that to someone else. 

 

[Bob Marino]

Bob, ya know I've got several rails now that are in the cardboard boxes and they are built real well from an engineering standpoint.  The way it folds and strength is enhanced how it wrapws over the end.  I keep them in the original packaging for storage.  I also like how you can open and close them with ease.  In other words you do not have to destroy the packaging to get the product.    Of course the fact that they are short helps keep the need for something stronger and that 2700 has some flex in the middle.  I'm not an engineer so I'll leave that to someone else.   

  Oh, I am not saying the cardboard boxes are not well engineered and fairly strong, and the percentage of rails that reach a customer unscathed isn't very high; it is. However, with the enormous amount of packages that UPS deals with and the conveyor belts and all the steps in between up to customer delivery, IMHO, too much is left for all those vageries. Certainly the longer the rail, the more  prone to damage in the cardboard boxes, but I have also seen the 118" truck freighted bent like a pretzel.

  Bob

 

[Corwin]

The packaging is a mystery.  After all the comments when I started the thread, I looked at a couple shorter ones that had the masonite packaging at a local store and they had masonite top&bottom with wood frame all the way around the perimeter.   This package only had one piece (visible in the second pic) of wood at the bottom and the other three sides were bare.  You could see the staple holes where they were at one time.  Packing tape was wrapped around it in a few places but other than that it was free to just slide around edge to edge.  The damage pictured appears to be from where something shifted and the package slid (hard) up against another package or something (fork lift maybe who knows) and shifted and hit that opject jaming it up.  It was not superficial. It's jammed  and would impact the saw's smooth path.  

My question is who altered the packaging? Hopefully Festool has not changed anything and cut 3 strips of pine to save a few pennies.  Other that that small dig it was otherwise ok.   It's a shame.  I work in manufacturing and those reworks loose for everybody.  The customer (me) the shipper, the dealer etc.  You don't want reworks on anything.  On the bright side, my E-mails were answered last night even one as late as 10:30 PM EST and Bob's asked if I just wanted a refund so I gould get it some where else.  I said no just send another one.  I did not need for an urgent job (sadly I don't use festool for a living). Shipping damage is not Bob's fault.  Matter of fact the LR32 sys that arrived had so much bubble wrap taped aound it , I could have played basket ball with it and a gorilla could have delivered it and it would have been ok.  Bob's going to make it right. Another one will arrive so the world will not end.

I suspect Chris has a relative that works for UPS.  And when Chris first discovered the quality of the pine, asked his relative to be on the lookout for anyone shipping the longer Festool rails.  If we see in the future some nice looking projects built in South Africa and made from high quality pine, well, we'll know the truth.   [wink]

But, all seriousness aside, why is UPS not held accountable for the damages that they have caused.  The only rail that I have received damaged was a 1900mm rail in the usual cardboard container that arrived in the shape of a banana.  No delivery drive could possibly mistake that package for being anything but destroyed.  Now, I wouldn't think UPS would accept a package from a vendor in such a shape, so they surely know that they have been responsible for the damages.  What will it take to change their practices?  Do we need to boycott their company.  Or a class action lawsuit?  Somehow they need to held accountable!

 

[image132]

The packaging is a mystery.  After all the comments when I started the thread, I looked at a couple shorter ones that had the masonite packaging at a local store and they had masonite top&bottom with wood frame all the way around the perimeter.   This package only had one piece (visible in the second pic) of wood at the bottom and the other three sides were bare.  You could see the staple holes where they were at one time.  Packing tape was wrapped around it in a few places but other than that it was free to just slide around edge to edge.  The damage pictured appears to be from where something shifted and the package slid (hard) up against another package or something (fork lift maybe who knows) and shifted and hit that opject jaming it up.  It was not superficial. It's jammed  and would impact the saw's smooth path.  

My question is who altered the packaging? Hopefully Festool has not changed anything and cut 3 strips of pine to save a few pennies.  Other that that small dig it was otherwise ok.   It's a shame.  I work in manufacturing and those reworks loose for everybody.  The customer (me) the shipper, the dealer etc.  You don't want reworks on anything.  On the bright side, my E-mails were answered last night even one as late as 10:30 PM EST and Bob's asked if I just wanted a refund so I gould get it some where else.  I said no just send another one.  I did not need for an urgent job (sadly I don't use festool for a living). Shipping damage is not Bob's fault.  Matter of fact the LR32 sys that arrived had so much bubble wrap taped aound it , I could have played basket ball with it and a gorilla could have delivered it and it would have been ok.  Bob's going to make it right. Another one will arrive so the world will not end.

I suspect Chris has a relative that works for UPS.  And when Chris first discovered the quality of the pine, asked his relative to be on the lookout for anyone shipping the longer Festool rails.  If we see in the future some nice looking projects built in South Africa and made from high quality pine, well, we'll know the truth.   [wink]

But, all seriousness aside, why is UPS not held accountable for the damages that they have caused.  The only rail that I have received damaged was a 1900mm rail in the usual cardboard container that arrived in the shape of a banana.  No delivery drive could possibly mistake that package for being anything but destroyed.  Now, I wouldn't think UPS would accept a package from a vendor in such a shape, so they surely know that they have been responsible for the damages.  What will it take to change their practices?  Do we need to boycott their company.  Or a class action lawsuit?  Somehow they need to held accountable!

Ha, you should take a look at my project in the members area and you will see where all that pine went

But really how can they not be held accountable? When you use them do you agree to absolve them of any damage of goods? Because if so you could liken them to a donkey cart and only have to pay for the food the donkey eats...much cheaper :/ I thought only "acts of God" was damage that they could not be held accountable for, at least when I used couriers here that is what they said.

 

[Corwin]

Ha, you should take a look at my project in the members area and you will see where all that pine went

Yep, I'm just too slow.  After posting the above reply, I saw your Clamp review and your My latest project thread.  I jumped back here to modify my post to link to your thread as proof of my suspicions.  

And Chris, Thanks for being such a good sport!  It is great having you here.

 

[Bob Marino]

But, all seriousness aside, why is UPS not held accountable for the damages that they have caused.  The only rail that I have received damaged was a 1900mm rail in the usual cardboard container that arrived in the shape of a banana.  No delivery drive could possibly mistake that package for being anything but destroyed.  Now, I wouldn't think UPS would accept a package from a vendor in such a shape, so they surely know that they have been responsible for the damages.  What will it take to change their practices?  Do we need to boycott their company.  Or a class action lawsuit?  Somehow they need to held accountable!
[/quote]

  Corwin,

With a UPS damages an item, a claim is filed with them and they will either ask to pick up the item in question, so they can examine it and the original packaging; determining whether that packaging meets their standards for its given size and weight. If it doesn't meet these requirements, they deny the claim. Sometimes they just approve the claim without inspection. UPS  offers $100.00 of insurance free, but many, if not most dealers, use another insurance company for items in value over that amount.  So, in cases like this, dealers file 2 claims.

Bob

 

[mikeneron]

Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I avoid UPS at all costs.  I recently had an order shipped through FedEx and they don't appear to be any better.  I was lucky in my case that there was no damage to the contents inside.  The shipping companies should be held liable for any damage and have to pay...maybe then they would take better care of how the packages are handled.

I went to the UPS pickup location one time for a special pickup and went in the back where they are loading up the trucks.  I saw boxes being tossed in and wondered how any of these packages get delivered without any damage.  Younger guys doing most of the grunt work that obviously don't care about the contents they are handling.

 

[Bob Marino]

Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I avoid UPS at all costs.  I recently had an order shipped through FedEx and they don't appear to be any better.  I was lucky in my case that there was no damage to the contents inside.  The shipping companies should be held liable for any damage and have to pay...maybe then they would take better care of how the packages are handled.

I went to the UPS pickup location one time for a special pickup and went in the back where they are loading up the trucks.  I saw boxes being tossed in and wondered how any of these packages get delivered without any damage.  Younger guys doing most of the grunt work that obviously don't care about the contents they are handling.

I think most people would cringe if they saw the way the way packages are handled. But, the way your packages  were shipped is unacceptable; an accident waiting to happen and am surprised their wasn't major damage to both the CT and the hose garage. Double boxing both boxes is a must.

Bob

 

[ward]

Is the rail bent?

For me, the damage just looks superficial. If it were mine I'm sure I'd be pretty miffed too, but at the end of the day it's a functional item, a tool, not a piece of artwork.

If it is just a bit of superficial damage, then you might have to just accept that it's scuffed & move on. I'm sure Bob would be happy to send you a new edge strip to replace the damaged one. Eventually with a rail that long, you're going to ding it on one end yourself while turning it round anyway. Now, you won't feel as bad when that happens...

Sure, you could argue that you bought a new item, and that's what you want but isn't what you've got. If you insisted on having it replaced, then that would cause huge issues for Bob, and to some extent you too. Whatever the outcome of a complaint, UPS won't pay up for their mistake, it will be an innocent party (Bob) that loses out.

As I said above, if I were in your shoes I might see things differently, but as an impartial observer I think the best outcome would just be for you & Bob to come to some arrangement about it - I'm thinking a new edge strip & maybe some small accessory to compensate.

Of course if the rail is bent, then that's a different story & you'll have no option but to reject it...

I agree, I an much happier when i accept that we live in an imperfect world.

My second table came with a rail that had a slight ding in one end. I felt so guilty after already returning the first table as well as complaining (to no real effect) I just sucked it up, took a screwdriver and gently bent the edge of the clamping slot back so it would accept a clamp or stop. After the second or third time i used it, i almost forgot all about it.

I often due an almost perfect job, only to see it immediately trashed by the clients or on occasion, other trades. Ideally my response is gratitude for for more work! That doesn't mean i let people walk all over me, it just means i try to see it from the other persons perspective. Very few people wake up every morning planning to screw up their own, or others, day.  I tend to forget that the UPS driver and many many other people in the shipping chain cannot afford the products I"m buying from amazon not to mention a thousand dollars order of festools, or our professional services.

I find it hard to get good work out of poorly compensated employees. . . Not everybody at UPS or Fed ex is making allot of money, i imagine most of them are paid as little as possible with few benefits and Fed ex, last time i heard was non union and that's almost a reason to not use them right there. God only knows where the loss of union power is taking this country.

Ps. I'm not a union shop or a union member, i just know that the unions are responsible for many of the benefits I have enjoyed, whether it's a 15 minute break, lunch, child labor laws, safe equipment, and the idea of a  limited # of hour work day and week.

 

[jonny round boy]

Ward,

Unfortunately for Bones, the damage wasn't just superficial, and he's stated that the rail is bent [sad]

 

[bonesbr549]

Is the rail bent?

For me, the damage just looks superficial. If it were mine I'm sure I'd be pretty miffed too, but at the end of the day it's a functional item, a tool, not a piece of artwork.

If it is just a bit of superficial damage, then you might have to just accept that it's scuffed & move on. I'm sure Bob would be happy to send you a new edge strip to replace the damaged one. Eventually with a rail that long, you're going to ding it on one end yourself while turning it round anyway. Now, you won't feel as bad when that happens...

Sure, you could argue that you bought a new item, and that's what you want but isn't what you've got. If you insisted on having it replaced, then that would cause huge issues for Bob, and to some extent you too. Whatever the outcome of a complaint, UPS won't pay up for their mistake, it will be an innocent party (Bob) that loses out.

As I said above, if I were in your shoes I might see things differently, but as an impartial observer I think the best outcome would just be for you & Bob to come to some arrangement about it - I'm thinking a new edge strip & maybe some small accessory to compensate.

Of course if the rail is bent, then that's a different story & you'll have no option but to reject it...

I agree, I an much happier when i accept that we live in an imperfect world.

My second table came with a rail that had a slight ding in one end. I felt so guilty after already returning the first table as well as complaining (to no real effect) I just sucked it up, took a screwdriver and gently bent the edge of the clamping slot back so it would accept a clamp or stop. After the second or third time i used it, i almost forgot all about it.

I often due an almost perfect job, only to see it immediately trashed by the clients or on occasion, other trades. Ideally my response is gratitude for for more work! That doesn't mean i let people walk all over me, it just means i try to see it from the other persons perspective. Very few people wake up every morning planning to screw up their own, or others, day.  I tend to forget that the UPS driver and many many other people in the shipping chain cannot afford the products I"m buying from amazon not to mention a thousand dollars order of festools, or our professional services.

I find it hard to get good work out of poorly compensated employees. . . Not everybody at UPS or Fed ex is making allot of money, i imagine most of them are paid as little as possible with few benefits and Fed ex, last time i heard was non union and that's almost a reason to not use them right there. God only knows where the loss of union power is taking this country.

Ps. I'm not a union shop or a union member, i just know that the unions are responsible for many of the benefits I have enjoyed, whether it's a 15 minute break, lunch, child labor laws, safe equipment, and the idea of a  limited # of hour work day and week.

I can appreciate the point of view, however I have to differ from the opinion that if you pay someone a lot of money they will do a great job.  Thats just not the case.  Having pride in one's works is what delivers results.  I have a good friend who owns a screen printing/trophy business and he can only afford to pay what he's pays and still make a profit (that is the motive at the end of the day) and he lives and dies by being able to ship his product in a timely fashion.  He has accounts with both UPS and FED-ex for diversity and protection.  When UPS went out on strike the last time, If he had not had Fed-X he would have been out of business.    Finally I know that most of us in what ever job we do take pride in it not because of the Pay we make but that's just how we were raised.  Further I'm sure some in UPS and FED-X have employess that don't do their best and hopefully those folks are weeded out eventually (unlike gov't) It's the nature of the beast when shoping online and a risk we all take.  The point of my thread was not to bash UPS but simply share an experience and also point out that it's being made right and at the end of the day thats all that counts.

 

[daviszr1]

I find it hard to get good work out of poorly compensated employees. . . Not everybody at UPS or Fed ex is making allot of money, i imagine most of them are paid as little as possible with few benefits and Fed ex, last time i heard was non union and that's almost a reason to not use them right there. God only knows where the loss of union power is taking this country.

Ps. I'm not a union shop or a union member, i just know that the unions are responsible for many of the benefits I have enjoyed, whether it's a 15 minute break, lunch, child labor laws, safe equipment, and the idea of a  limited # of hour work day and week.

Wow.  Am I on the other end of that stick or what!  I'm salaried, and I work for the government.  All of the 80+ hour weeks, the eight weekends in a row (next week will make nine), the two years of working every single holiday, was all due to union negotiated contacts for the civilians.  More than that, in general they didn't care about the quality of their work and, on more than several occasions, said they didn't care because I couldn't fire them.  It can be a really weird relationship when I, as their boss/supervisor, make less than all but two of the most junior employees, but have to take the liability for their actions. 

I am not complaining, as this is the work that I do, and I feel blessed to be able to do so.  Basically my direct interactions with multiple unions has always demonstrated a degradation in the quality of service or product that was delivered to the end-order consumer.

I'm not certain any one is blame for a damaged rail or product despite how upset we might or might not be.  It's a matter of business and a fact that we deal with.  When I purchase online, I neither have to worry about bringing a product home nor do I have to pay sales tax.  The price I do pay is in risk of a damaged item and the so called "hassle" that might entail.  If I wanted an item delivered to my house exactly how I wanted it every single time, I load it up in the back of the truck and haul it home.  Some times that just isn't an option though and we're stuck with the consequences.

 

[Bob Marino]

Further I'm sure some in UPS and FED-X have employess that don't do their best and hopefully those folks are weeded out eventually (unlike gov't) It's the nature of the beast when shoping online and a risk we all take.   The point of my thread was not to bash UPS but simply share an experience and also point out that it's being made right and at the end of the day thats all that counts.

I think with UPS and Fed Ex, it's not necessarily the "fault" of any one person, it's the sheer quanity of packages of all sorts being processed.  Having said that,  I saw my driver just walk on top of packages in her truck, rather than picking them up.
But my biggest complaint with them all is the fact that the driver will leave an obviously damaged package without any notation at a customer's home or office.

  Bob

 

[Bob Marino]

Just did a double check with my warehouse, and, as I thought,  not only do we rely on the wood around the sides, we have had the packers add additional tape on them because sometimes the staples holding the wood in place can pull thru in shipping and  have also had them put additional cardboard on the ends and tape that up also so the ends remain intact and prevent the rail from slipping out.

  IMHO, the UPS drivers should not be permitted to leave a package with obvious  damage to the box, without a note, on official paper, detailing said damage.

  Bob

 

[bonesbr549]

It's good to hear that was not the SOP for shipping the rail (I did not beleive it was anyway).  I'm looking forward to the 2nd one arriving in good shape.  I'll post a few picks comparing the two.  In the scope of things only an inconvenience.  Thanks for the follow-up Bob.  Take care.

 

[bonesbr549]

But, all seriousness aside, why is UPS not held accountable for the damages that they have caused.  The only rail that I have received damaged was a 1900mm rail in the usual cardboard container that arrived in the shape of a banana.  No delivery drive could possibly mistake that package for being anything but destroyed.  Now, I wouldn't think UPS would accept a package from a vendor in such a shape, so they surely know that they have been responsible for the damages.  What will it take to change their practices?  Do we need to boycott their company.  Or a class action lawsuit?  Somehow they need to held accountable!

 Corwin,

With a UPS damages an item, a claim is filed with them and they will either ask to pick up the item in question, so they can examine it and the original packaging; determining whether that packaging meets their standards for its given size and weight. If it doesn't meet these requirements, they deny the claim. Sometimes they just approve the claim without inspection. UPS  offers $100.00 of insurance free, but many, if not most dealers, use another insurance company for items in value over that amount.  So, in cases like this, dealers file 2 claims.

Bob
[/quote]

Bob the new one arrived and it was in good shape.  The extra you put at the end, seemed hardly touched.  It was even gently leaned against my garage instead of just laying in the driveway like the last one.   Yahoo!  Now to cuttin! He I just looked.  Did you remove the staples and replace them with wood screws.  Too funny.

 

[RONWEN]

If there is a bright side here, Bones or somebody will get two (2) shorter rails out of the damage... [smile]

 

[GPowers]

Did you remove the staples and replace them with wood screws.  Too funny.

Your lucky he did and Festool should take note. As when my 3000mm Guide Rail arrived about 1/3 of the staples were no longer doing there job. The fiber board had pop off. I was lucky, there was no damage.