A Fresh Start With Festool?

[AtomicRyan]

OK fellas... dedicated work shop guy here. In fact, I'm the guy that runs both garagejournal.com and jalopyjournal.com. To date, all of the work I've done in my shop has been focused on light metal fabrication and automotive mechanics. That being said, the wife has been wanting some built-ins in our modern farmhouse and after getting sticker shock from the quotes handed out by local finish carpenters, I've decided to tackle the project myself. However, before I dive in I want to do a few warm up projects as I haven't worked with wood in years...

I also need to get tooled up as well... and when I do so, I figure it will be a good chance to kind of journal my experience for other mostly metal guys to see how it goes. Given that I have a 30x40 shop that is already pretty full with metal working tools and welders, I want to build a "wood working system" that can be put up and away when not in use. Because of that, I was turned on to Festool.

Anyway, I need help... Here's what I already have:

1. A 1940's Craftsman bandsaw that I converted to DC and use a speed controller on... That way, it can cut metal or wood.
2. A 1940's era Craftsman disc/belt sander.
3. A 1940's era Craftsman Drill press.

All of this stuff was restored a few years ago and has been put to good work in my shop. To compliment this stuff, I want to build a nice festool kit. Here's what I was thinking:

1. An MFT
2. A plunge saw (I don't own a table saw or a miter saw at the moment)
3. A good all purpose sander
4. A decent all purpose router
5. Dust collection.

I figure when not in use, this stuff can be put away in systainers and stacked on the dust collector in one corner of the shop.

What I need help with is where to start? Which models should we look at for a general purpose plunge saw, sander, router, etc... ?

Any help would be greatly appreciate.

Ryan

 

[bobfog]

OK fellas... dedicated work shop guy here. In fact, I'm the guy that runs both garagejournal.com and jalopyjournal.com. To date, all of the work I've done in my shop has been focused on light metal fabrication and automotive mechanics. That being said, the wife has been wanting some built-ins in our modern farmhouse and after getting sticker shock from the quotes handed out by local finish carpenters, I've decided to tackle the project myself. However, before I dive in I want to do a few warm up projects as I haven't worked with wood in years...

I also need to get tooled up as well... and when I do so, I figure it will be a good chance to kind of journal my experience for other mostly metal guys to see how it goes. Given that I have a 30x40 shop that is already pretty full with metal working tools and welders, I want to build a "wood working system" that can be put up and away when not in use. Because of that, I was turned on to Festool.

Anyway, I need help... Here's what I already have:

1. A 1940's Craftsman bandsaw that I converted to DC and use a speed controller on... That way, it can cut metal or wood.
2. A 1940's era Craftsman disc/belt sander.
3. A 1940's era Craftsman Drill press.

All of this stuff was restored a few years ago and has been put to good work in my shop. To compliment this stuff, I want to build a nice festool kit. Here's what I was thinking:

1. An MFT - Not a necessity, it's overpriced for what it is and not particularly portable at 30kg.
2. A plunge saw (I don't own a table saw or a miter saw at the moment) Bosch and Mafell make better tracksaws unless you want the 3" cut capacity then the Festool TS75 is your only option.
3. A good all purpose sander ETS EC 150/5 or a Rotex 150 would be good choices.
4. A decent all purpose router OF1400
5. Dust collection. Bosch do better more powerful vacs at slightly cheaper prices, but not compatible for stacking Systainers unless you do some DIY modifications.

I figure when not in use, this stuff can be put away in systainers and stacked on the dust collector in one corner of the shop.

What I need help with is where to start? Which models should we look at for a general purpose plunge saw, sander, router, etc... ?

Any help would be greatly appreciate.

Ryan

 

[Kev]

Welcome Ryan.

If you're doing built in's and cabinets, take a look at Festool's Domino and their LR 32 system (watch a few YouTube videos) .. they offer some interesting capability and are highly regarded.

I personally do like the MFT/3 (and it's massively more expensive here in Oz)

If you like the LR32 setup, buying a track saw with your first rail swapped for the LR32 version of the rail is a must ... you'll understand from any of the videos you watch.

The ROTEX sanders are interesting units as they're also magnificent for polishing which may be a bonus for your main shop activities)

I'll guess you already have some high precision measuring and marking gear.

Things like small hand planes and block planes will be very handy.

Clamps for glue ups (but you're likely to have some crossover stuff you could use from steel fabrication).

I'm about to build a big workshop and will want to venture a little into metalwork, so I'll be frequenting you forums in the near future [smile]

Kev.

 

[semenza]

Welcome to the forum Ryan,

    Festool should work out well for what you want to do.

Seth

 

[nclemmons]

Ryan -

I'm a big fan and member at GarageJournal.  Great site with an awesome group of members.  Congratulations on running a really excellent resource.

If you're doing builtins, I think the 1400 router with the LR32 system for drilling the 32mm holes would be a good combination.  It does work on the Festool rails so if you are considering the rail saw, ask your dealer to swap out the standard rail for the holey rail that will work with the LR32 system.  It includes a couple of clamps, bits for both 5mm holes and inset 32mm hinges if you go that route.

MFT is a good choice but you could also consider building a Paulk-style bench and drilling holes.  Www.paulkhomes.com has the link to his bench plans if those might be of interest.  I do have an MFT and have been very happy with it.  It can be a little small for building a full set of built-ins so that was why I was suggesting something like a Paulk bench.  Plus it would give you a 'test project' for using your Festools since you have been more metal than wood focused in your making.

I have the TS55 saw and it's been a great tool for sheet goods and general work.  The larger saw is a consideration, but more money and more capacity and more weight.  I do fine with the smaller saw as do a lot of members here.  It would serve you well for making cabinets and builtins.

Would love to see some photos of your restored Craftsman tools, or a direction to a thread on GarageJournal.

There a great set of videos by Poplar Shop on Youtube that go into building a set of kitchen cabinets that might be of help to you as you figure out the tools you might need.  The link to the series is

[member=8352]erock[/member] is a member here and created the videos and might offer you some advice as well.

For cabinet making, the two sanders I'd recommend are the ETS 150/3 and the RTS 400.  Both are finish sanders and the combination give you a lot of flexibility for sanding plywood, edging, drawers, etc.  Lots of other options in the Festool line, but trying to be careful spending your money!

Festool sanders will work with a Festool vac or third party vacs but if you go third party, you might need to bet a Festool hose.  I do like the Festool vacs - I have both a Midi and a CT26.  You can use a non-Festool vac and you will want dust collection for any of their tools.  I like the Festool vacs for their variable speed, great dust collection and ability to stack with the Systainers.

Good luck and welcome.  Feel free to post photos of your work or shop and ask away with additional questions -

neil

 

[RustE]

If the OP is in the USA, the Bosch track saw is out.  It's still not available here.

What I have read suggests the TS 55 REQ track saw is safer to use with the MFT than the HK 55 EQ.  There's a thread or two on squaring the MFT that I would read before you decide.  For infrequent use, a sliding compound miter saw might win.

Fein recently released a newer model dust extractor that is worth a look too.  They put some suction control capability into the vacuum again.

The Festool dust extractors are more attractive if you have 20A outlets available and can take full advantage of the tool activated outlet.

 

[AtomicRyan]

Ryan -

I'm a big fan and member at GarageJournal.  Great site with an awesome group of members.  Congratulations on running a really excellent resource.

If you're doing builtins, I think the 1400 router with the LR32 system for drilling the 32mm holes would be a good combination.  It does work on the Festool rails so if you are considering the rail saw, ask your dealer to swap out the standard rail for the holey rail that will work with the LR32 system.  It includes a couple of clamps, bits for both 5mm holes and inset 32mm hinges if you go that route.

MFT is a good choice but you could also consider building a Paulk-style bench and drilling holes.  Www.paulkhomes.com has the link to his bench plans if those might be of interest.  I do have an MFT and have been very happy with it.  It can be a little small for building a full set of built-ins so that was why I was suggesting something like a Paulk bench.  Plus it would give you a 'test project' for using your Festools since you have been more metal than wood focused in your making.

I have the TS55 saw and it's been a great tool for sheet goods and general work.  The larger saw is a consideration, but more money and more capacity and more weight.  I do fine with the smaller saw as do a lot of members here.  It would serve you well for making cabinets and builtins.

Would love to see some photos of your rebuilt Craftsman tools, or a direction to a thread on GarageJournal.

There a great set of videos by Poplar Shop on Youtube that go into building a set of kitchen cabinets that might be of help to you as you figure out the tools you might need.  The link to the series is

[member=8352]erock[/member] is a member here and created the videos and might offer you some advice as well.

For cabinet making, the two sanders I'd recommend are the ETS 150/3 and the RTS 400.  Both are finish sanders and the combination give you a lot of flexibility for sanding plywood, edging, drawers, etc.  Lots of other options in the Festool line, but trying to be careful spending your money!

Festool sanders will work with a Festool vac or third party vacs but if you go third party, you might need to bet a Festool hose.  I do like the Festool vacs - I have both a Midi and a CT26.  You can use a non-Festool vac and you will want dust collection for any of their tools.  I like the Festool vacs for their variable speed, great dust collection and ability to stack with the Systainers.

Good luck and welcome.  Feel free to post photos of your work or shop and ask away with additional questions -

neil

Thanks for all the detail and the nice words. I've got some studying to do for sure!!!

As for my vintage craftsman stuff, here are some details:

1. Drill Press:http://www.garagejournal.com/2015/09/103-23140-craftsman-drill-press/

2. Band Saw:http://www.garagejournal.com/2015/02/vintage-craftsman-bandsaw-dc-conversion/

3. Belt/Disc Sander:http://www.garagejournal.com/2015/08/vintage-craftsman-beltdisc-sander/

They are absolute workhorses... and pretty nice to look at as well.

 

[RKA]

Welcome Ryan!  Good to see you over here! 

In case you don't know, you can get 10% the MFT when purchased with the track saw. And you can get 10% off a dust extractor with any power tool purchase.  Finally, Festool does raise their prices about 2-3% every April or so.  Since you're planning out some big purchases, keep that in mind. 

For the MFT, they sell brackets to reinforce the legs adding stability.  I would recommend them, unless you're sure you'll be folding up the table daily. 

The plunge saw will be great for cutting sheet goods down to size, but for casing, baseboard and other trim, you will still want a miter saw.  The dewalt 717 is quite a good option and there are others at a fraction of the cost of a Festool.

For a sander, you'll find yourself starting with 2 and adding more, I promise.  A DTS 400 will get into corners and and ETS EC150/3 will handle fine finish work.  That should cover you to start.  Let your project needs drive the next one.  Festool sanders and abrasives are worth it. 

The router is a little tricky.  The 1400 will accept 1/4", 8mm and 1/2" bits but can easily be managed handheld.  There are 2 issues, the ergonomics are a little strange and some just don't like the handle at the top.  It's personal preference.  Second is if you want to put this in a router table down the road, there are no 3rd party options that I know of.  And the Festool table is expensive and a little quirky (I wouldn't buy it again after having used it).  On the flip side if you want follow the 32mm system for your cabinets, Festool sells a plate and accessories for it and if you got the "holy" track mentioned above with your track saw, you're all set. 

The Festool CT 26 has a nice balance between bag capacity and size/weight if you're moving it around the house for projects.  It also doesn't have the restrictive 90 degree bend at the vac like the smaller ones.  You may eventually need to add a 36mm hose.

 

[nclemmons]

Ryan -

Those are absolutely stunning Craftsman restorations.  Love seeing the older gear that is still being put to productive use.

We used to have an amazing dealer on the forum here from Austin but he passed away last year.  Perhaps others on the forum from Austin could recommend a dealer or give you a demo and talk about the Festool line-up.  There's nothing like seeing them in use to really understand their potential.

neil

 

[Holmz]

1. An MFT
2. A plunge saw (I don't own a table saw or a miter saw at the moment)
3. A good all purpose sander
4. A decent all purpose router
5. Dust collection.

I figure when not in use, this stuff can be put away in systainers and stacked on the dust collector in one corner of the shop.

What I need help with is where to start? Which models should we look at for a general purpose plunge saw, sander, router, etc... ?

Any help would be greatly appreciate.

Ryan

1: MFT is OK,  but some saw horses or tables are better for larger things. You probably want both the MFT, as well as saw horses, Paulk table in the end.

2: Mafell MT55 and Bosch/Mafell rails

3: Festool ETS/EC 150/5.
Mirka DEROS 5250.  (If you prefer a paddle switch - similar to a pneumatic)
Festool RS2E: (Alternatively a 1/2 sheet orbital)

4: Any Bosch or the Festool 1400. Once you have rails then that determines what router will fit. The Bosch rail system (32-mm) can take some of the FT routers. Getting good rails is the key here, and the rails are not equal.

5: Starmix, Bosch, Fein also make vacuums. The HEPA vacs all work the same.

6: Lamella Zeta P2 (You probably want this for sheet goods and cabinets.)

All the Mafeil and Lamello also come is systainers, and the Starmix can stack systainers on top. And they also work fine with a CT26

 

[mark60]

Hi Ryan, Garage Journal is another one of my daily haunts, I've been a member for a while.
Depending on budget you can spend or save in a couple places. I started with an MFT replacement top and used dogs to locate my track and for a fence. I like the hinged MFT so I bought an MFT3 after a little while but the replacement top with dogs works great on some sawhorses.

My TS55req was my intro to Festool and I added a holey rail along with a 75" rail and the 118" I think it is. If you can store it it's great for breaking down sheet goods. A Centipede stand with a sheet of foamboard works for my cutting table.

Love my Domino for so many things.

I started with a 1010 router and added the 1400. Either works great with the LR32 system.

Dust extraction comes to budget. You probably have a shopvac and with an inexpensive Bosch hose will work with most things Festool. You'll give up auto start but can get that other ways and you'll give up antistatic. A Fein vac will will give you auto start but not anti static and is a great value. I've got a CT Mini and a CT26 with an Ultimate Dust Deputy on top.

Then there's sanders and much more if you fall down the rabbit hole.

 

[semenza]

    Yes, nice restored equipment. It is nice to see what the old machines should look like. Generally when I see them they are rusted, tarnished and broken. So when I picture old equipment in my mind that is how it always looks. Nice to see it looking new and usable!

Seth

 

[DrD]

I'm a little late to the party, but I'll chime in. 
1) MFT/3 - one of the greatest tools I have for most everything I do in the shop; have 2 of them and would have more if I had the budget.
2) I have a TS75, love it and if I were to buy another plunge saw, I would probably go Mafell - which means more/different guide rails/tracks, but that's ok, not likely to go beyond my TS75, and I can live with that.
3) A Good All Purpose sander - I have and use the Rotex RO150, and if I don't need to sand extremely aggressively I will most always reach for my RS2; cannot say enough good about the merits of the RS2 - only draw-back to me is lack of a Plug-It, removeable power cord.
4) OF 1010 is my go-to router unless I need to use 1/2" shanked bits, then the OF1400.  There are enough high quality 8mm and 1/4" shanked bits to cover virtually everything I do + works great with LR32.  Festool's LR32 system, is great and I use it frequently, however, since purchasing it, I have found - for my work in casual cabinet-making - there are other very good choices available, including some options from Kreg.
5) Dust Collection - I have CT26e and love it; I also have a couple of Ridgid and a ShopVac.  Have been looking at Fein, and that will probably be my next purchase.  Not sure I buy totally into the HEPA argument - but HEPA is available with Fein as well.
You did not mention joining, where the Festool Domino is quit nice.  I do some joining with my DF500.  If there is a lot of joining to do, like today with assembling 2 tables with tops and shelves (~80 dominos), I will go Pocket Hole, again with the Kreg.  But is personal choice, and others may use only Domino - but that then necessitates "glue up" and clamping, unless supplemented by pocket holes.  So if you're going to do a pocket hole , why not to all pocket holes?
Hope this helps!  There are a lot of other offerings from Festool (I have a few but not near as many as most) which will prove to be most useful.  Their one product that I do avoid is the drill/drivers; never have had nor seen a need to go beyond the Bosch, Makita, DeWalt, Porter Cable fare available locally.

Regards, Don

 

[Slider613]

Big Fan of Garage Journal, welcome aboard.

For Sheet Goods work primarily that is where Festool Excells.

The 3 standout tools from the brand are

1)Domino (DF 500)

2)Track Saw ( I like the cordless, works best for my workflow)

3) Rotex (I like the 6 inch)

With an MFT you will get the most out of them, the Routers are also great, superb dust collection and work very well on the rails, alleviate the need for a Dado Stack in my opinion.

I'd also recommend a finish Sander, something with a 3mm Stroke. You'll need a set of Clamps, there is a current limited edition set that comes very nicely set up, some Rails for the Tracksaw and Routers, rail connectors, Dust Extractor (I have the largest one as I rarely take it out of the shop), LR32 setup is nice for cabinets however, there are perfectly adequate cheaper options.

A Table saw is still quite useful, I have the SawStop Jobsite Saw, folds up small, and comes with a great stand. The Tracksaw is great for large sheet goods, but is tough to use on thinner boards, so a small accurate Tablesaw would go well with it.

 

[mikeyr]

Welcome aboard Ryan...Same username on GJ as here, been on GJ since it was GarageJunkies 10-12 years ago.

I would seriously look into the LR 32 system for adjustable shelves and also the door hinges.  And for that LR 32, I would get the OF 1400 router, other than that, the usual MFT and track saw. 

Warning, Festool is addictive.

 

[Gregor]

If you want to do built-ins then the following is a shopping-list suggestion for you.

To turn wood (sheets and 2x4) into the dimensions you need:
TS-55 REBQ + FS combo (get your dealer to give you the rail with the holes)

To create corpora, doors for them and plenty other stuff:
OF-1400 + Accessories
LR32 SYS
DF-500

To make them slick and glossy while keeping your lungs alive:
RO-90/150
CT-26/36

Also a battery drill/driver is nice to have, I like the C18.

Regarding MFT: you could get the 20mm mortice cutter and use the listed tools to make your own MFT style workbench, the list as above contains all tools you need to create one. In case you like it green and lazy: MFT/3, leg braces and the MTF-FX is a reasonable choice as a work/assembly table.

You stated you did metal work, should you have access to a metal lathe you could turn yourself some bench dogs out of aluminium for low cost.

Clamps: I like the Bessey KLI for fixing, the KRV (with the connectors) for corpora - and the GTR and GTRH which in practice are the Festool clamps, just in red and for 1/2 the price.

Small stuff: leave enough in your budget to get the small stuff, like a good square, scale, chisels, handplane, sharpener, ... and enough throwaway material to first get to know any new tool you obtain before you work it on expensive (or limited) stock for a project.

One thing to keep in mind are the prices Festool tools go for when used: often it can make financial sense to get a tool in new for a certain one-off project and afterwards sell it used with only little (or at times even no) loss - or keep it in case you grew to like it...

 

[Z48LT1]

Hi, Ryan,

I've been mostly a lurker on both GJ and JJ as well as FOG and have recently jumped in to the Festool pool after much study, but feel like something of a heretic.  In addition to the alternate suggestions that bobfog suggested above, I might also advise you look into alternatives:

Instead of the MFT, Peter Parfitt's Parf Guide System is just one of the ways to create an MFT-like work surface the size of your dreams.  You can spend the rest of the winter studying genius solutions others have created.  One you might start with is Dan Pattison's portable MPT which would be a great way to ease into the pool without spending hardly anything.

While the Festool TS 55 is the gold standard for intro track saws for this forum, and the Mafell MT 55 is the bucks up alternative, the Makita 6000 is edit 1/30  $200 $260 less than the Festool, including guide rail, and has very good reviews.

In no way am I denigrating anything Festool.  I would buy one of everything if I had the means.  I just don't.

Best regards,

Gary

 

[Scorpion]

Ryan,

Welcome, I too am a fan of GJ and have nearly the exact same story as you - started out in metal fabrication and ended up in woodworking because of home projects.

My first festool was a domino which is probably the #1 game changer they sell.  Buy it.

A few years ago I built built-ins, vanities, and an office setup.  Here's what I used -

Used an MFT3 and TS55 to cut to size sheet goods.  LR32 and OF1010 are key machining shelf pin holes.  Domino is great for making carcass assembly a snap and to align face frames to the carcasses.  Kreg Pocket hole system for face frame assembly and carcass assembly (though in not visible spots, I just countersink pre-drill and then uses screws).  Dewalt 12v impact drill is my #1 cabinet making tool.  It will perfectly set all of the above screws and not break them if you run them in until the screw stops + bang, bang, bang (no kidding).  For dust extraction I started with a CTMIDI.

When I bought the above tools to build the first vanity, I felt a little stupid after totaling it all up.  Coulda bought a damn nice vanity.  What I hadn't prepared for was how easily it ended up being making the cabinets, how nice the cabinets turned out, the benefits of the custom features I could add by building the cabinets myself, and how much my wife loved them.  All of those epiphanies launched me into building built-ins and cabinets for nearly every room in the house and now I'm spanning out into furniture.  Now the tooling investment seems trivial and as a result, the wife actually supports the tool capability expansion as I see fit (it was so much harder to convince her to buy metal fab tools!!).

Where you're at was a significant moment in my fabrication journey. Best of luck on yours!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AtomicRyan]

Ryan,

Welcome, I too am a fan of GJ and have nearly the exact same story as you - started out in metal fabrication and ended up in woodworking because of home projects.

My first festool was a domino which is probably the #1 game changer they sell.  Buy it.

A few years ago I built built-ins, vanities, and an office setup.  Here's what I used -

Used an MFT3 and TS55 to cut to size sheet goods.  LR32 and OF1010 are key machining shelf pin holes.  Domino is great for making carcass assembly a snap and to align face frames to the carcasses.  Kreg Pocket hole system for face frame assembly and carcass assembly (though in not visible spots, I just countersink pre-drill and then uses screws).  Dewalt 12v impact drill is my #1 cabinet making tool.  It will perfectly set all of the above screws and not break them if you run them in until the screw stops + bang, bang, bang (no kidding).  For dust extraction I started with a CTMIDI.

When I bought the above tools to build the first vanity, I felt a little stupid after totaling it all up.  Coulda bought a darn nice vanity.  What I hadn't prepared for was how easily it ended up being making the cabinets, how nice the cabinets turned out, the benefits of the custom features I could add by building the cabinets myself, and how much my wife loved them.  All of those epiphanies launched me into building built-ins and cabinets for nearly every room in the house and now I'm spanning out into furniture.  Now the tooling investment seems trivial and as a result, the wife actually supports the tool capability expansion as I see fit (it was so much harder to convince her to buy metal fab tools!!).

Where you're at was a significant moment in my fabrication journey. Best of luck on yours!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for this!

 

[tiralie]

Now the tooling investment seems trivial and as a result, the wife actually supports the tool capability expansion as I see fit (it was so much harder to convince her to buy metal fab tools!!).

If anyone follows [member=27782]Scorpion[/member] on GJ, you will see the result of not only his tool purchases but a great example of what you can do with some talent, persistence and some good tools.
Always a pleasure seeing an update.
Tim