Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.

[vkumar]

Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.  [tongue]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] you are implying that there is something inherently superior to 220 V power. Just like the Brits think that driving on the left side of the road is superior.  You have to realize that these are just standards. And as [member=42863]SouthRider[/member] said "Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product." And the last point I will make is that Netherlands is 5 % of US population , and 0.4 % of US land area. You can convert from one system to another quite easily, not so in the US. And this is the main reason why the conversion to metric is difficult.

 

[duburban]

This is a great post that gets to the current heart of this issue. Well put.

I must admit that the repeated threads on Kapex motor failure have affected me.

I've had my Kapex going on ten years and originally used it to trim out a house I built for my Mom.  It was Craftsman style with custom molding and block paneling so lots of work.

Now my Kapex lives a life of luxury in a shop environment for a few cuts here and there.  Definitely not every day and often not even weekly.

Yesterday, I had to make a couple hundred cuts for a large project.

With each start of the motor, I found myself worrying if this would be the cut where it died.

I know it's irrational but the perception is there.

Managing perception is as important as managing reality.

In my opinion, Festool's silence on the matter has hurt its reputation.

 

[Coen]

Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.  [tongue]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] you are implying that there is something inherently superior to 220 V power. Just like the Brits think that driving on the left side of the road is superior.  You have to realize that these are just standards. And as [member=42863]SouthRider[/member] said "Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product." And the last point I will make is that Netherlands is 5 % of US population , and 0.4 % of US land area. You can convert from one system to another quite easily, not so in the US. And this is the main reason why the conversion to metric is difficult.

Without devolving into a discussion about how the Americans kept the useless Imperial system from their former oppressors while we kept the metric system from a short French occupation...

20x more homes and population is the same relative work for conversion. Size at that point does not matter. Over the long run not adjusting is just gonna cost more. And yes, I don't only imply 230V superiority, it simply is superior. The cable losses are only 1/4th if using the same cables for the same amount of power.

Or look at what Japan has; both 50 and 60 Hz because in the 19th century two cities bought different generators...

We started out with Broad-gauge railway. Then when we reached the border we concluded that it was ultimately cheaper if you could just roll across it... and we converted everything to standard gauge. The Russians of course did not... and that's why it's still a pain to have freight trains from China to Europa.

But yes, conversion is often delayed. I definitely want to roll out your 1st amendment here. Something that can be done for free... but alas.  [crying]

Having said that all; it's not an excuse for a bad motor.

 

[semenza]

Lets not get too far into the OT marshland here.

Seth

 

[Cheese]

Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.  [tongue]

Having said that all; it's not an excuse for a bad motor.
[/quote]

I have to agree with that, the 120 vs 240 thing never really made any sense to me. So if you have leaky boots and are standing in water, and if you contact a 120v wire, it’ll take you twice as long to die as opposed to touching 240v wires? The 240 volt option is just so much cleaner. Anyone that deals with low voltage circuitry fully understands the wire gauge vs wire length vs  curent capacity conundrum.

And bottom line is, a bad motor is still a bad motor, and your feet should be held to the fire because of that.

 

[DeformedTree]

"I like to wonder why the US doesn't adopt 230 Vac and the metric system. After biting the bitter bullet once it's only savings. Or lead the way with 350 Vdc or something."

Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product.

Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.  [tongue]

The US and our Canadian buddies don't need to retrofit anything.  99.9% of structures with electricity are 220-240VAC.  All houses in the US get both 120 and 240.  We just center tap it and get 120.  It's part of the evolution of the system (it was just 120V at one time). There hasn't been a push for the change because on the consumer level 120 work fine and is in theory safer due the the lower voltage. If you have been zapped by both, you prefer to be sapped by 120.  I'm not against fully going 240 (I'd like to see the change), but what gets lost in a lot of these threads is we have 240 now.  We just use it for large items like dryers, ovens, stoves, heating, air conditioning, welders, electric car chargers, etc.  We also have 240 plugs for low amp circuits,  just no one installs them. There is also confusion in code as to if you can have branch circuits with 240.    Since the number of items where 220 would be better than 120 is so few, there just isn't demand.

We also have 20amp 120 outlets.  They are even code for parts of the house.  You can plug both 15 and 20amp devices into these plugs.  So there is an infrastructure for 20amp, which would be great for these tools.  Yet I have never seen in my life a device with a 20amp plug on it.  An infrastructure install base of hundreds of millions of these plugs and they never get used.  I've tried to find devices that use a 20a plug and never found one.  So while going full 240 would be nice, we don't even use the 20a plugs as is, you aren't going to get support for it.

I think Festool could look at offering 20A models here. But that would mean beefing wiring up more in the tools.

The US is a 220-240V country just like Europe, we just ignore it most the time.  We have 3 phase power too, but it's only available to commercial users and/or the rare lucky person who has an existing 3P run going by their house they can connect into.

Festool could even offer some tools in 220-240 in the US. Most folks would have little issue wiring their shop up for them. People do it all ready with table saws and such.  But a contractor going into a house would be a challenge.  Not many are going to ask if they can un-plug their dryer to work.

Some folks have imported 220 tools from Europe and just put a US plug on them.

Also the difference for most products doesn't matter as they have universal power supplies in them.  Items like computers.  They take  50/60hz, 100-250VAC power.  So we use the same product as the rest of the world, it's just a different cord tossed in the box.  Festool could do the same if they wanted too.

If the new KS120 arrives and it works fine in 120V version, no one will care anymore.  Even if the US was 220-240V all around, there are tools that Festool probably won't bring over for various reason (different safety regs, etc).

 

[AlexThePalex]

Some folks have imported 220 tools from Europe and just put a US plug on them.

Also the difference for most products doesn't matter as they have universal power supplies in them.  Items like computers.  They take  50/60hz, 100-250VAC power.  So we use the same product as the rest of the world, it's just a different cord tossed in the box.  Festool could do the same if they wanted too.

That is not how it works with power tools. Key word here is universal power supply, and a power supply is a transformer, a big lumpy piece of neatly arranged copper wires. The transformer takes care of converting the input voltage to the lower voltage the connected device requires.

But power tools don't have a transformer built in. They use the full power of the grid directly connected to the motor. Any difference in voltage between a US and a European tool needs to be converted before it enters the tool, and that is why you need a separate step-up transformer if you want to use a 220v tool on a 110v circuit.

I am not so familiar with the US 220v split-phase system, but what I read says it always has to use 3 wires, two hot and a neutral that's connected to ground, and double insulated power tools only have 2 wires, so connecting one to 220v split-phase would totally be not up to code.

 

[glass1]

Blah....blah.....blah....  Let’s take a new poll how many of2200’s have burned out. It’s a power hog. How many that have burned out where run through a ct.  I bet the answer is virtually zero. How many of ct’s Have burned out when these kapex’s burned when plugged into them, albeit virtually zero. Festool is not admitting they care, if they admit to a problem it will cost them. Maybe they quietly addressed the issue in version 2. Y’all get my point, if it’s the bad USA power grid how can they design the rest of their tools not to burn out. I just find it odd that their ct’s, routers, and rotexes are robust ant the ts saws and kapex have just enough power. Again albeit these three saws burn out the most.

 

[DeformedTree]

I am not so familiar with the US 220v split-phase system, but what I read says it always has to use 3 wires, two hot and a neutral that's connected to ground, and double insulated power tools only have 2 wires, so connecting one to 220v split-phase would totally be not up to code.

There is combinations of what you do.  Your basic description is correct.    Transformer on the pole take transmission line voltage 8k-30kVAC steps it down to 220.  Within that transformer is the center tap, that becomes neutral.  Those 3 wires enter the house.  At the house there is a grounding system, rods in ground.  There is a single point ground that connects to the Neutral at a single point in the house circuit, typically in the main panel, or an external disconnect.  So neutral has a reference to ground, and thus the Neutral side doesn't have a breaker/fuse (you can't get zapped if you connect yourself across neutral and ground).  Where folks get confused is Neutral is also a hot.  It is no different than the other 2 hots, But since it's referenced to earth, it serves as the center point (neutral).  Devices in the home connect to for 110 the neutral and a hot.  All receptacles since 1963 National Electric Code have a ground pin.  This pin may or may not be used by the tool/device. Generally not a lot of things still use the ground as most devices have moved to be double insulated.  So most the time devices have 2 prong plugs that have no neutral.  If you go 220, the wiring just grabs the 2 hots, no neutral at all.  Again use of the ground is optional for the device.  We also have plugs that are both 220/110 in the same plug. Ovens, Dryers tend to use these.  Terminology causes some of the confusion, as other places will just use L1, L2,  verses hot, neutral, etc.  In the end, the fundamentals are the same as you see in Europe.  If someone wanted, they could just never connect the neutral line up and have a completely 220V house.  Some folks do this to a degree, there are retailers who import in 220V appliances from Europe that are normaly offered here.  It's just a pain if you want a new toaster to import one because you wired your house fully 220.  Safety wise it's completely fine.  Again we have double insulated (groundless) devices and tools all over here.  The biggest challenge is Festool doesn't sell a plug-it cord with a US NEMA plug for 220V.  So most folks cut the end of and wire on a US plug.  This can get someone in an OSHA (Federal safety org) violated if your are a business.  The get around would find some sort of adapter, but most those work in different combos than required. A device to plug in Europe Outlets tends to output US 110 outlet, not 220.

Again if Festool wanted, they could offer some tools in their European version. Of course they would have to get them certified and develop another plug-it cord.  For shop based folks, these tools may be welcome, offer the high power tools in this.  But the take rate on these would probably be low. Mobile workers would not be likely to find much use for them.  Other than finding a 220 plug in a house a creative person could make a adapter box with 2 cords coming out of it,  then go through the place they are working and find 2 different 110V outlets that are on opposite hots, plug the cords in and now you can get 220.  This is functionally fine, but sketchy as all heck. But they would not be the first person to do this. No different than what happens directly in the panel.  In the US there is also the option that since most receptical have 2 outlets to them, you can break off the connecting tabs and power each outlet in the receptical by different circuits.  Current code requires if this is done that the 2 circuits have a common disconnect. Basically you have to use a 220 breaker (which is just 2 110V breakers with the handles connect the 2 together). This way when you kill power to one outlet it's killed to both. This is for safety.  What it means is any outlet wired this way is 2 110V outlets, but also spanning the 2 is 220.  Someone could make a cord plug that takes advantage of this.  This is basically what our larger  220/110 outlets do, just at the lower amps and using what is all ready there.    But still, the US looked at changing post WWII and decided not to and overall it's not a huge issue.  If anything just mandate more 220 plugs installed in new home construction. Some places are doing this, but it's the 50A dryer/welder plugs and they are in garages for EV car chargers.

 

[Gregor]

Festool will likely never make a plug-it cable with a 220V US plug, as they AFAIK made the mistake to fit the 110V ones with the identical plug-it receptacle than the ones on 230V machines use. Offering a 220V plug-it cord would lead to people mixing different voltage devices, frying/burning both the 110V and the 220V ones by giving them the respective wrong voltage.

 

[Coen]

The US and our Canadian buddies don't need to retrofit anything.  99.9% of structures with electricity are 220-240VAC.  All houses in the US get both 120 and 240.  We just center tap it and get 120. It's part of the evolution of the system (it was just 120V at one time). There hasn't been a push for the change because on the consumer level 120 work fine and is in theory safer due the the lower voltage. If you have been zapped by both, you prefer to be sapped by 120.  I'm not against fully going 240 (I'd like to see the change), but what gets lost in a lot of these threads is we have 240 now.  We just use it for large items like dryers, ovens, stoves, heating, air conditioning, welders, electric car chargers, etc.  We also have 240 plugs for low amp circuits,  just no one installs them. There is also confusion in code as to if you can have branch circuits with 240.    Since the number of items where 220 would be better than 120 is so few, there just isn't demand.

We also have 20amp 120 outlets.  They are even code for parts of the house.  You can plug both 15 and 20amp devices into these plugs.  So there is an infrastructure for 20amp, which would be great for these tools.  Yet I have never seen in my life a device with a 20amp plug on it.  An infrastructure install base of hundreds of millions of these plugs and they never get used.  I've tried to find devices that use a 20a plug and never found one.  So while going full 240 would be nice, we don't even use the 20a plugs as is, you aren't going to get support for it.

I think Festool could look at offering 20A models here. But that would mean beefing wiring up more in the tools.

The US is a 220-240V country just like Europe, we just ignore it most the time.  We have 3 phase power too, but it's only available to commercial users and/or the rare lucky person who has an existing 3P run going by their house they can connect into.

That's completely different. 120 and -120V still require less insulation. And what you describe is a complete mess with different circuits and plugs. We don't have split phase whatsoever. We have 3 phase by default, with a phase voltage of 230V. Most houses that don't have a 3-phase connection still have a 3-phase fuse holder and for €200 the grid company will add the two other fuses. An oven, dryer, washer, heater; all can be connected to a normal 230V 16A outlet with the Schuko plug. A phone charger can plug into the same socket with it's Euro plug.

Only for things like electric cooktops or heatpumps for heating your entire house we use different sockets.

We upgraded gradually from 127V to 220V. In same cases by just connecting between two different phases of 127V and for newer stuff straight 230V. Then when the older areas were converted to real 230V they got the earlier change in their circuit box reversed.

Festool will likely never make a plug-it cable with a 220V US plug, as they AFAIK made the mistake to fit the 110V ones with the identical plug-it receptacle than the ones on 230V machines use. Offering a 220V plug-it cord would lead to people mixing different voltage devices, frying/burning both the 110V and the 220V ones by giving them the respective wrong voltage.

How will 110V fry a 230V tool?  [blink] In some rare cases it could if you power a motor but then not being able to spin it.. But other than that?

Some folks have imported 220 tools from Europe and just put a US plug on them.

Also the difference for most products doesn't matter as they have universal power supplies in them.  Items like computers.  They take  50/60hz, 100-250VAC power.  So we use the same product as the rest of the world, it's just a different cord tossed in the box.  Festool could do the same if they wanted too.

That is not how it works with power tools. Key word here is universal power supply, and a power supply is a transformer, a big lumpy piece of neatly arranged copper wires. The transformer takes care of converting the input voltage to the lower voltage the connected device requires.

That's the old style of power supply. These days it's rectified, then DC switched over a much smaller transformer (if needed). Depending on design and load it can work with even way wider ranges than 100-250V. For example; some laptop chargers will work just fine when fed 50V.

 

[Job and Knock]

That's the old style of power supply. These days it's rectified, then DC switched over a much smaller transformer (if needed). Depending on design and load it can work with even way wider ranges than 100-250V. For example; some laptop chargers will work just fine when fed 50V.

As someone who lives and works in the only country in the EU where 110 volt power supply is mandated on construction sites I'm pretty sure if the rectified approach was smaller/lighter/more reliable at the same price as big, heavy copper and iron transformers we'd have switched over to them years ago. We haven't. We still have big, lumpy, heavy copper and iron transformers. I wish t'were otherwise

 

[DeformedTree]

That's completely different. 120 and -120V still require less insulation. And what you describe is a complete mess with different circuits and plugs. We don't have split phase whatsoever. We have 3 phase by default, with a phase voltage of 230V. Most houses that don't have a 3-phase connection still have a 3-phase fuse holder and for €200 the grid company will add the two other fuses. An oven, dryer, washer, heater; all can be connected to a normal 230V 16A outlet with the Schuko plug. A phone charger can plug into the same socket with it's Euro plug.

Only for things like electric cooktops or heatpumps for heating your entire house we use different sockets.

We upgraded gradually from 127V to 220V. In same cases by just connecting between two different phases of 127V and for newer stuff straight 230V. Then when the older areas were converted to real 230V they got the earlier change in their circuit box reversed.

There is no difference in insulation requirements.  All our wiring is 600V rated,  120V, 220V, 3P we use the same wire for all of it.  Also split phase isn't 120 and -120,  It's positive 120 both sides.

It's a mess in a sense,  yes pure 220V would be nice, but it's really not that bad.  We effectively use 1 plug, a NEMA 5-15.  The others are specialty and plugs many folks will go their entire life and never touch.  This chart from Wiki shows all the possible plugs, but this is largely stuff no one uses or are for specific things.  Cell phone charger to Kapex 120 plugs into same outlet.

NEMA plugs

Even if we were just 220V, we would still have many plugs as they have different usages and amps.  Something I think is different is Europe hasn't had the history with very large electrical load devices like the US has.  As you can see, even our 220 stuff pulls serious amps.  30+ amps on dryers.  Cooktops and ovens 60A.  If you have electric heat you could consume that easy.  Standard service to a US house is 240VAC 200A, 48kW of power. And starting in the late 90s houses with 400A services (96kW, aka 0.1MW) became more common.  The average power draw of a US house is over 2kW.

You have a massive install base to change, and since we are split phase (2 voltages), we can't just turn it up very easy.  If you boost the 120v stuff up to 240, everything 240V just became 480V. This is house the split phase came to be. Someone realized we could go from 120V to 240V but swapping out transformers for split taps and thus able to keep the hold 120V setups as is.  Outbuildings, sheds, old farms and some very old houses are still 120V only.  Changing the USA+Canada is the same as trying to re-wire all of Europe at once.  Also I assume Europe is broken up into a lot of small grids. The USA has 3 electric grids (East, West, Texas).  To crank up the voltage you would have to do the entirety of one at once, the east grid is half the population of the US, that's a lot of change. In theory you could do it street by street and just simply disconnect the neutral from the transformer, but now you have to go house by house and re-wire the internals of the panels, and best case replace a small number of appliances, but try to explain to most the population what they are benefiting by this change. Having to buy a mountain of step down transformers to plug old stuff in and have them around for a decade or 2 is a pain. A small country unifying to it's adjoining countries makes sense an is straightforward. Getting 2 countries that don't interconnect to anyone else to change is basically an impossible sell.

The plugs, switches, wiring, etc is general ok with it, most are rated to go to 277V and beyond.  But all the appliances and so forth would be a nightmare.  Not to go in a tangent but people here tend to have a lot of stuff, simple or minimal living isn't very popular. While most could live with a simple little electric hot plate, folks tend to buy a cooktop they can fry a Moose on and an oven to can bake an Ostrich in while their 9 tons worth of AC cools their 6000 sq ft starter home to 68F on a 100F day. So it's not just a couple items per household, it's a lot.  Also building code change cycles are a thing.  NEC has a 3 year revision cycle.  Then only after that happens IBC picks up that and they are on a 3 year cycle, but most states skip a cycle, so 6 years and then they don't do it right away. So you have over 10 years from the time the ball gets moving till the change becomes the law of the land.

While it would be nice to have 3phase ~220 a leg into every house and everyone gets a 300A service min would be great, it's just not going to happen.

Festool beefing up the design on their stuff for low voltage is much easier/cheaper.

 

[Coen]

That's completely different. 120 and -120V still require less insulation. And what you describe is a complete mess with different circuits and plugs. We don't have split phase whatsoever. We have 3 phase by default, with a phase voltage of 230V. Most houses that don't have a 3-phase connection still have a 3-phase fuse holder and for €200 the grid company will add the two other fuses. An oven, dryer, washer, heater; all can be connected to a normal 230V 16A outlet with the Schuko plug. A phone charger can plug into the same socket with it's Euro plug.

Only for things like electric cooktops or heatpumps for heating your entire house we use different sockets.

We upgraded gradually from 127V to 220V. In same cases by just connecting between two different phases of 127V and for newer stuff straight 230V. Then when the older areas were converted to real 230V they got the earlier change in their circuit box reversed.

There is no difference in insulation requirements.  All our wiring is 600V rated,  120V, 220V, 3P we use the same wire for all of it.  Also split phase isn't 120 and -120,  It's positive 120 both sides.

Yeah, 120 Volts 180 degrees rotated.

It's a mess in a sense,  yes pure 220V would be nice, but it's really not that bad.  We effectively use 1 plug, a NEMA 5-15.  The others are specialty and plugs many folks will go their entire life and never touch.  This chart from Wiki shows all the possible plugs, but this is largely stuff no one uses or are for specific things.  Cell phone charger to Kapex 120 plugs into same outlet.

Yes, but it's the same bulky plug. Did you ever compare the US plug on a phone charger to the europlug we have here? That US thing will cut your clothes, bags and skin while bending, then electrocute you when you stick it in the wrong way because the exposed contacts are way too long and allow touching them with your fingers while they are already live.

NEMA plugs

Even if we were just 220V, we would still have many plugs as they have different usages and amps.  Something I think is different is Europe hasn't had the history with very large electrical load devices like the US has.  As you can see, even our 220 stuff pulls serious amps.  30+ amps on dryers.  Cooktops and ovens 60A.  If you have electric heat you could consume that easy.  Standard service to a US house is 240VAC 200A, 48kW of power. And starting in the late 90s houses with 400A services (96kW, aka 0.1MW) became more common.  The average power draw of a US house is over 2kW.

Yeah, these days tend to insulate more; that automatically reduces the energy needs. Standard connection in the Netherlands is 3x25A total 17.25 kW. Some other countries in Europe do have higher amperage connections, but since we near 100% of houses connected to piped natural gas, nobody heats their home with electric resistive heating.

You have a massive install base to change, and since we are split phase (2 voltages), we can't just turn it up very easy.  If you boost the 120v stuff up to 240, everything 240V just became 480V.

No, you can do it one block at a time. You rewire the circuit boxes to connect the 240V outlets between phase and neutral as opposed to between +120 and -120.

This is house the split phase came to be. Someone realized we could go from 120V to 240V but swapping out transformers for split taps and thus able to keep the hold 120V setups as is. 

Yeah, that's comparable to what happened here, but you never took the next step.

Outbuildings, sheds, old farms and some very old houses are still 120V only.  Changing the USA+Canada is the same as trying to re-wire all of Europe at once. Also I assume Europe is broken up into a lot of small grids.

False assumption. All of mainland Europe is interconnected. In 2006 a stack of maintenance, temporary disconnection and parallel overloading in Germany resulted in blackouts in in Italy and Greece...

Last year we had all the clocks move back and forth a few minutes all over Europe because some energy companies in the Balkans had some financial conflict....

During the night when we have surplus wind or coal power we export to Norway over a 450 kVdc cable. They use that to pump up water into high altitude lakes. Then during peak demand they let it drop down a generator and export it. (As green energy  [blink])

The USA has 3 electric grids (East, West, Texas).  To crank up the voltage you would have to do the entirety of one at once, the east grid is half the population of the US, that's a lot of change. In theory you could do it street by street and just simply disconnect the neutral from the transformer, but now you have to go house by house and re-wire the internals of the panels, and best case replace a small number of appliances, but try to explain to most the population what they are benefiting by this change. Having to buy a mountain of step down transformers to plug old stuff in and have them around for a decade or 2 is a pain. A small country unifying to it's adjoining countries makes sense an is straightforward. Getting 2 countries that don't interconnect to anyone else to change is basically an impossible sell.

You have to do it street by street since you cannot simply double the voltage across the whole grid as substations build for 10 kV will not hold 20 kV very long. You can think ahead though, like our grid companies are doing; they are slowly upgrading all the 10 kV ringnets to 20 kV. They buy medium voltage switchgear that is certified for 24 kV use and for the time being use them at 10 or 12 kV. Then when the entire ring has upgraded stations they will up the voltage.

The plugs, switches, wiring, etc is general ok with it, most are rated to go to 277V and beyond.  But all the appliances and so forth would be a nightmare.  Not to go in a tangent but people here tend to have a lot of stuff, simple or minimal living isn't very popular. While most could live with a simple little electric hot plate, folks tend to buy a cooktop they can fry a Moose on and an oven to can bake an Ostrich in while their 9 tons worth of AC cools their 6000 sq ft starter home to 68F on a 100F day. So it's not just a couple items per household, it's a lot.  Also building code change cycles are a thing.  NEC has a 3 year revision cycle.  Then only after that happens IBC picks up that and they are on a 3 year cycle, but most states skip a cycle, so 6 years and then they don't do it right away. So you have over 10 years from the time the ball gets moving till the change becomes the law of the land.

While it would be nice to have 3phase ~220 a leg into every house and everyone gets a 300A service min would be great, it's just not going to happen.

Festool beefing up the design on their stuff for low voltage is much easier/cheaper.

Yes, it would have been relatively easier to do in the 50's and 60s.

 

[AlexThePalex]

That's the old style of power supply. These days it's rectified, then DC switched over a much smaller transformer (if needed). Depending on design and load it can work with even way wider ranges than 100-250V. For example; some laptop chargers will work just fine when fed 50V.

The charger is still a big lumpy device, though quite a bit lighter than a transformer, and it is still something a power tool doesn't have or need. My point was not to post an all inclusive list of current altering devices, merely to point why you can't put a power tool in the same catagory as other devices that run on electricity.

The universal power supply only works when it is used for appliances that need a (much) lower current than the grid supplies, because it needs conversion anyway, and not when it needs its full power, where the current is used directly without conversion.

[member=68063]DeformedTree[/member] Your post above is one nice big clusterflap of confusion and code violations. That's not what you do with deadly voltages. The European 220v system uses one single socket and a single phase circuit for everything. The only exception is a 3-phase circuit for electric cookers, which is a separate system that's so different you can't confuse or mix stuff up. 

 

[Gregor]

Festool will likely never make a plug-it cable with a 220V US plug, as they AFAIK made the mistake to fit the 110V ones with the identical plug-it receptacle than the ones on 230V machines use. Offering a 220V plug-it cord would lead to people mixing different voltage devices, frying/burning both the 110V and the 220V ones by giving them the respective wrong voltage.

How will 110V fry a 230V tool?  [blink] In some rare cases it could if you power a motor but then not being able to spin it.. But other than that?

(emphasis mine). Reduced voltage can lead to it not spinning, effectively turning the one coil that is currently active into an electric heater (till it burns up).
Should it be enough to keep it spinning it'll likely draw way more current than designed, with a good chance of it being more than the wires (as they're ment to deal with a lower amperage as of higher design voltage) can take.

 

[kevinculle]

Festool decides to sell a very expensive, inadequately engineered and validated tool into a market of 350 million people and the fanboys here decide the problem is in the now 120 year old AC supply system that seems to work perfectly for most other manufacturers of power tools and all other electrical equipment.  Yes of course...let's invest hundreds of billions instead of expecting Festool to be competent at engineering the products they sell.  Case closed!

 

[ChuckM]

Yes of course...let's invest hundreds of billions instead of expecting Festool to be competent at engineering the products they sell.  Case closed!

I find the call for changing the 110v or 120v supply in N.A. to 220v unbelievable. It is a dead end if anyone hopes or thinks that is the solution to any real or perceived motor problem with the Kapex. No one seriously thinks the world revolves around Festool, eh?

 

[DeformedTree]

We effectively use 1 plug, a NEMA 5-15. 

Yes, but it's the same bulky plug. Did you ever compare the US plug on a phone charger to the europlug we have here? That US thing will cut your clothes, bags and skin while bending, then electrocute you when you stick it in the wrong way because the exposed contacts are way too long and allow touching them with your fingers while they are already live.

Yeah, these days tend to insulate more; that automatically reduces the energy needs. Standard connection in the Netherlands is 3x25A total 17.25 kW. Some other countries in Europe do have higher amperage connections, but since we near 100% of houses connected to piped natural gas, nobody heats their home with electric resistive heating.

I'm not sure if you are confusing the US plug with something else like the UKs BS plug.  An ungrounded 5-15 plug is more or less the same size as a Europlug, main difference is Europlug has fancy round pins.  Canada, USA and Japan seem to do just fine with it. We trust our kids to plug stuff in without issue.  Remember the voltage is also half, so even if something does go wrong it's not nearly as bad.  Also you are limited to 2.5A, thus that's like us being limited to 5A at 120V,  so your going to need a different plug for other things.  The plug North America and Japan use are probably the least issue.    Plug design is clearly something no one agrees on, as all around the world everyone has different ideas.  If the world is going to try to get North America to change, first the world needs to settle on a plug.  Just in Europe i'm coming up with over 14 plugs and that's not counting obsolete ones.  If there was a true global plug it would reduce one of the sticking points.  One of the first things that would come up during a conversion is do we unify the plug, and to what.  While we have applicable plugs it's not as good as getting to the same plug.

N.A. has strong energy codes that keep getting stronger.  We also have very large houses and build in very extremes.  Some live in the arctic, hot desert, rain forest, grassland, forest, etc.  A lot of Europe falls in a generaly mild band of temps. Not a lot of need for air-conditioning (most the US needs it to some degree either for cooling or dealing with humidity) and the atlantic currents mean your northern countries don't get that cold in the winter.  2 weeks ago is was 50F at my house, this weekend it will be below 0F.  I can be 105F in summer and -20F in winter.  Such extremes are typical of the northern half of the country.  If you need the AC, then you need power for it.  Only a sub-set of the country has Natural Gas service. It's not growing because it's to expensive to put in outside of dense neighborhoods. Older neighborhoods don't tend to see upgrades both do to cost and folks not wanting to change.  Gas companies just try to keep up with not having to many houses explode from natural gas. The systems are old and since it's very expensive to maintain right, it doesn't get maintained and thus gas explosions are very common. Boston had three towns evacuated and 100+ homes destroyed recently from gas when the over pressure systems failed.  Natural gas growth is in Power generation, it's killing coal at an extreme rate, so it's usage is centralized and makes electrons for our homes.  Areas without NG use Oil (not that much any more), Propane, Wood, sometimes Coal.  Electric heat took off in the 60s as electricity was cheap and we were building nuclear plants everywhere.  Now the big push is on Heat pumps. NG is ok, but even it's usage is going to have to end before long as it's better than say coal, but still a problem.  Nice thing with electricity is it's easy to make now that solar is cheap.  A lot of the country does use resistive heating.  It's simple to install, works great in small locations or where someone doesn't want to deal with propane/oil/wood delivery. Cost to run isn't that bad, especially as places with it tend to be small.  Still probably the bulk of homes built in the 60-70s were electric heat.  Mini-split Heat Pumps are about the only real upgrade option for those homes since they have no duct work system.

Again, I have nothing against the US going 220 all around.  But I think you are massively underestimating the challenge for it to happen.  North America has no basic reason to change, and there is basically no case you can make to people for the change.  Things like going full metric will happen much sooner and easier than getting rid of 120V.  Anything can be done.  This country doesn't do change well, even when the benefits are obvious and huge. Telling Joe and Jane homeowner that the neutral is getting disconnected and they will need to replace their electric panel, have every outlet, switch, fixture checked inspected and replaced depending on it's rating, and then deal with appliance replacements is going to get your run out of the country. From a North American standpoint we are extremely standardized.  Everything is the same plug and voltage.  We don't run into plugs from different countries, we don't have issues feeding across country borders, all the switches, lights, gear, etc get made here and or due to the shear size of the country justify the production for the US and Canada.  If one US state was different than the rest, that would be an issue. But they aren't.  The Netherlands is close to the combining  the US states of  New Jersey and Massachusetts in both population and size.  Those are small states.  If they were different than the rest of the country they would certainly figure out how to change to match the rest and it would be understandable. The conversion would also be way over schedule, budget, massive corruption and probably involve 7 or 8 governors going to jail over their dealings in the conversion.

There are a lot of things I'd like to see changed in the US, I'm very pro global standards.  Like I mentioned, I'd love to see 3phase and 220 to all homes. But I'm realistic on how this country functions that it's not going to happen and other things are way ahead in priority.  When it comes to power, I think most folks would be happy to just have reliable utility. Or get the power to their homes underground so they don't have power outages all the time. When is snows, is windy or a branch falls.  The transformer supplying my house is from the 50s and half rust. It can't support the power draw of the houses it feeds. The power company knows it needs to be replaced but they will not replace transformers until they explode.  Since it still functions they can't be forced to replace it. People want to see issues like this fixed. And yes, it would be easy to say that this is how you phase in 220 only.  But the reality is folks will take the old sketchy transformer over having to deal with re-wiring their house and changing appliances.  Even for those who say "hey this sounds good, lets do it"  the next problem is, "ok I converted my house, where can I buy a 220V toaster"  to which the reply will be "Europe".  Retail is not going to want to support a 20-30 year period of carrying 2 of everything.  Lawsuits will be everywhere with folks arguing "the government can't tell me my voltage"  "they want to take away your hair dryer"  "it's so they can force you to have to buy new appliances which they control".  There will be endless people talking about the harm to children 220V will cause.  If you want to get a sense of things, look up "Smart Meters" in this country, and check THIS out.  Utilities putting in smart meters has brought these people out, I don't even want to think about the reaction to eliminating 120V.  Zoo's would have to provide Elephants with extra protection.

 

[glass1]

All this talk because a couple kapex’s went poof ? What are all you people talking about ? Whatever y’all are smoking you sure aren’t sharing.