Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.

[DeformedTree]

All this talk because a couple kapex’s went poof ? What are all you people talking about ? Whatever y’all are smoking you sure aren’t sharing.

The Kapex died, no talk will heel it.  Blaming 120V or trying to re-wire countries or eliminate what is probably the most used single type of electrical plug in the world won't heel it.

Thus things end up in discussions with people learning about different parts of the world which as long as constructive/good spirited is useful so people don't make the same assumptions in the future. If the Kapex has an under-lying design flaw, it very well is due to those designing it not fully understanding users/usage of the tool in the 120V countries, or not understanding the nature of the electrical system in those countries.

 

[Coen]

We effectively use 1 plug, a NEMA 5-15. 

Yes, but it's the same bulky plug. Did you ever compare the US plug on a phone charger to the europlug we have here? That US thing will cut your clothes, bags and skin while bending, then electrocute you when you stick it in the wrong way because the exposed contacts are way too long and allow touching them with your fingers while they are already live.

Yeah, these days tend to insulate more; that automatically reduces the energy needs. Standard connection in the Netherlands is 3x25A total 17.25 kW. Some other countries in Europe do have higher amperage connections, but since we near 100% of houses connected to piped natural gas, nobody heats their home with electric resistive heating.

I'm not sure if you are confusing the US plug with something else like the UKs BS plug.  An ungrounded 5-15 plug is more or less the same size as a Europlug, main difference is Europlug has fancy round pins.

No, i'm not confusing them with the monstrously large UK plugs. I have a bag full with leads with US and UK plugs here, supplied with stuff I either imported or stuff that's not localized and ships with two or three....

The US plugs are almost without exception way too sharp on the edges of the pins. And because the pins are so thing, they are very easy to bend. They are also not insulated halfway, like the Europlug is.

Canada, USA and Japan seem to do just fine with it. We trust our kids to plug stuff in without issue.  Remember the voltage is also half, so even if something does go wrong it's not nearly as bad.

Not having it go wrong with half insulated plugs is even better.

Also you are limited to 2.5A, thus that's like us being limited to 5A at 120V,  so your going to need a different plug for other things.

Yes, that means the leads can be very thin without any problem. You can run a ton of things on 600W. The plug is also thinner because it has round pins. So thinner lead, thinner plug, pins that don't cut you(r stuff), don't bend as easy and are halfway insulated. What's not to like? Did I say the 'fullsize' plug fits in the same outlet?

  The plug North America and Japan use are probably the least issue.    Plug design is clearly something no one agrees on, as all around the world everyone has different ideas.  If the world is going to try to get North America to change, first the world needs to settle on a plug.  Just in Europe i'm coming up with over 14 plugs and that's not counting obsolete ones.  If there was a true global plug it would reduce one of the sticking points.  One of the first things that would come up during a conversion is do we unify the plug, and to what.  While we have applicable plugs it's not as good as getting to the same plug.

Agreed. Like USB; that's the same all over the world. Although with USB-C now you never know what it can and cannot do...

N.A. has strong energy codes that keep getting stronger.  We also have very large houses and build in very extremes.  Some live in the arctic, hot desert, rain forest, grassland, forest, etc.  A lot of Europe falls in a generaly mild band of temps. Not a lot of need for air-conditioning (most the US needs it to some degree either for cooling or dealing with humidity) and the atlantic currents mean your northern countries don't get that cold in the winter.  2 weeks ago is was 50F at my house, this weekend it will be below 0F.  I can be 105F in summer and -20F in winter.  Such extremes are typical of the northern half of the country.  If you need the AC, then you need power for it.  Only a sub-set of the country has Natural Gas service. It's not growing because it's to expensive to put in outside of dense neighborhoods. Older neighborhoods don't tend to see upgrades both do to cost and folks not wanting to change.  Gas companies just try to keep up with not having to many houses explode from natural gas. The systems are old and since it's very expensive to maintain right, it doesn't get maintained and thus gas explosions are very common. Boston had three towns evacuated and 100+ homes destroyed recently from gas when the over pressure systems failed.  Natural gas growth is in Power generation, it's killing coal at an extreme rate, so it's usage is centralized and makes electrons for our homes.  Areas without NG use Oil (not that much any more), Propane, Wood, sometimes Coal.  Electric heat took off in the 60s as electricity was cheap and we were building nuclear plants everywhere.  Now the big push is on Heat pumps. NG is ok, but even it's usage is going to have to end before long as it's better than say coal, but still a problem.  Nice thing with electricity is it's easy to make now that solar is cheap.  A lot of the country does use resistive heating.  It's simple to install, works great in small locations or where someone doesn't want to deal with propane/oil/wood delivery. Cost to run isn't that bad, especially as places with it tend to be small.  Still probably the bulk of homes built in the 60-70s were electric heat.  Mini-split Heat Pumps are about the only real upgrade option for those homes since they have no duct work system.

Untill recently connection to NG grid was mandatory for new housing with few exceptions. With like 1 year notice all new applications were banned from connection to the NG grid. Lot's of people bitched and whined before the first houses under the new rule were even build. It turned out just fine. We rarely ever have a problem with NG explosions.

Resistive heating here is about 2.5 times more expensive than heating with gas, so nobody does it. There was a short rage in the '80s, but that died off quickly.

Again, I have nothing against the US going 220 all around.  But I think you are massively underestimating the challenge for it to happen.  North America has no basic reason to change, and there is basically no case you can make to people for the change. 

Grid losses will be reduced, less mess with different plugs, etc. etc.

Things like going full metric will happen much sooner and easier than getting rid of 120V.  Anything can be done.  This country doesn't do change well, even when the benefits are obvious and huge. Telling Joe and Jane homeowner that the neutral is getting disconnected and they will need to replace their electric panel, have every outlet, switch, fixture checked inspected and replaced depending on it's rating, and then deal with appliance replacements is going to get your run out of the country.

When the water companies here switched to plastic tubing they just send a letter saying everybody had to stop using their stuff as earth connection and get their own earth electrode. Progress happens. People with asbestos on the outside of their roof also have to change it out on their own dime.

From a North American standpoint we are extremely standardized.  Everything is the same plug and voltage.  We don't run into plugs from different countries, we don't have issues feeding across country borders, all the switches, lights, gear, etc get made here and or due to the shear size of the country justify the production for the US and Canada.  If one US state was different than the rest, that would be an issue. But they aren't.  The Netherlands is close to the combining  the US states of  New Jersey and Massachusetts in both population and size.  Those are small states.  If they were different than the rest of the country they would certainly figure out how to change to match the rest and it would be understandable. The conversion would also be way over schedule, budget, massive corruption and probably involve 7 or 8 governors going to jail over their dealings in the conversion.

Not everything is the same voltage and plug if you make an 'exception' for heaters, washers, dryers, AC.... Ha, we can plug the washer and dryer on the same 16A circuit.

There are a lot of things I'd like to see changed in the US, I'm very pro global standards.  Like I mentioned, I'd love to see 3phase and 220 to all homes. But I'm realistic on how this country functions that it's not going to happen and other things are way ahead in priority.  When it comes to power, I think most folks would be happy to just have reliable utility. Or get the power to their homes underground so they don't have power outages all the time. When is snows, is windy or a branch falls.  The transformer supplying my house is from the 50s and half rust. It can't support the power draw of the houses it feeds. The power company knows it needs to be replaced but they will not replace transformers until they explode.

What about the children when that thing explodes? Yeah, the overhead lines puzzle me too. It used to be the same here when going into Germany; the cyclepath ends, the wiring becomes above ground, the windows are smaller and no PVC rainwater piping on houses. The above wiring is less and less though.
But in NL digging them into the ground might be a lot easier since the soft soil everywhere.

Since it still functions they can't be forced to replace it. People want to see issues like this fixed. And yes, it would be easy to say that this is how you phase in 220 only.  But the reality is folks will take the old sketchy transformer over having to deal with re-wiring their house and changing appliances.  Even for those who say "hey this sounds good, lets do it"  the next problem is, "ok I converted my house, where can I buy a 220V toaster"  to which the reply will be "Europe".  Retail is not going to want to support a 20-30 year period of carrying 2 of everything.

Retail is already carrying 50 of everything... with or without case, with or without official calibration report, with or without [...]. They also carry all the films in both DVD and BD, the phone chargers in micro USB, Apple, USB-C, etc.

  Lawsuits will be everywhere with folks arguing "the government can't tell me my voltage"  "they want to take away your hair dryer"  "it's so they can force you to have to buy new appliances which they control".  There will be endless people talking about the harm to children 220V will cause.  If you want to get a sense of things, look up "Smart Meters" in this country, and check THIS out.  Utilities putting in smart meters has brought these people out, I don't even want to think about the reaction to eliminating 120V.  Zoo's would have to provide Elephants with extra protection.

Good point. They tried to mandate smartmeters here too, but that didn't succeed . But they did it in the most dumb way. Lots of the "smart meters" have already been replaced at least once because they broke or were unsafe. Then of course it turned out the earlier smartmeters billed the user for the energy the meter used. And on top of that it billed poor power factor differently. It was supposed to not bill blind current... but they did. That was of course besides the whole discussion about privacy, wireless connection giving you cancer and what not. I'd say all the smart meter achieved was raise cost for everyone and provide eternal jobs for dozens of people doing nothing but replacing broken smart meters. I'd rather have they upgrade their ancient cable in the street...

We already have the standing rule that with substantial changes to the electrical installations you have to conform to the newer rules. But policing on that is nonexistent. They still sell used houses for half a million euros without rcd's.

 

[harry_]

I see the US residential market going to 12VDC before we go 220VAC. With the exception of a handful of items, almost everything in the american home has a step-down to 'low voltage' someplace.

Led lighting...stepped down
televisions....stepped down
laptops/computers.... stepped down

Basically if it is not a 'major appliance' or does not have a motor, it is stepped down either on the cord or internally.

I am starting to see, finally, USB wall outlets installed into new homes on a regular basis (not enough though). Personally, I think it should be added to the NEC.

While I fully realize that a USB cable/outlet can only handle a small amount of current/power, the old school automotive cigarette lighter socket was good for 20 amps/275 watts. So there is room for something in between.

 

[DeformedTree]

plug stuff..

I think you would just have to live here.  We use one plug for everything*.  The other plugs are things you barely ever use or specialty purposes and they have a good reason for it. No one ever gets frustrated with plugs here as we have just 1.  While those other plugs exist, few ever un-hook a dryer and such. And for things like their RV or generator you don't want them the same.  We can't run say a dryer off the regular plug because 240V/16A isn't enough, dryers take 240V, 30-40A.  Keep in mind a lot of items don't use a plug and are just connected directly to junction box.  A slide in range will generally use a plug, but a built in cooktop or wall oven uses a direct connection to the junction box. Some of those plug options that were shown are due to the transistion to 4 wire from 3.  Before the 90s neutral and ground didn't have seperate pins.  Code now requires 4 wire, but you are allowed to connect via 3 wire if you have an old house, or an old appliance.

Untill recently connection to NG grid was mandatory for new housing with few exceptions. With like 1 year notice all new applications were banned from connection to the NG grid. Lot's of people bitched and whined before the first houses under the new rule were even build. It turned out just fine. We rarely ever have a problem with NG explosions.

Resistive heating here is about 2.5 times more expensive than heating with gas, so nobody does it. There was a short rage in the '80s, but that died off quickly.

Mandating connection to something would end badly. Plus there is no way to implement that.  Forcing homes to be connected to a private company? Plus folks are trying to go off grid.  Same with electricity, plenty of place are not connected simply because their is no electric runs in the area. Even when the road has service, people find out that running power from the road to their building could cost them 20-30,000 dollars, they decide to stay off grid, use generator, install solar.

When the water companies here switched to plastic tubing they just send a letter saying everybody had to stop using their stuff as earth connection and get their own earth electrode. Progress happens. People with asbestos on the outside of their roof also have to change it out on their own dime.

Water lines were generally supplemental grounds here.  Houses have ground rod(s), that tie to the panel.  Other stuff is bonded (water pipes, gas pipes, etc) back to the ground system.  Changes to more plastic has causes changes there, generally confusion because people are un-sure what to do when something is a mix of metal and plastic.  Stuff like PEX in homes is still fairly new, lots of people still insist on copper, some cities/states only fairly recently began to allow PEX. 

What about the children when that thing explodes? Yeah, the overhead lines puzzle me too. It used to be the same here when going into Germany; the cyclepath ends, the wiring becomes above ground, the windows are smaller and no PVC rainwater piping on houses. The above wiring is less and less though.
But in NL digging them into the ground might be a lot easier since the soft soil everywhere.

I don't know how your gov/utility interaction works.  Here they are classified as a public utility, which basically imposes some rules far as billing. But for the most part the government has no say over anything the utility does. They have a monopoly, so it's not like you can speak with your wallet. So they have zero motivation to improve things. They wait for parts to fail, then just fix it enough to be back running again.  This is why they don't go back thru and bury stuff. They will claim some sky high price to do it.  The reality is they just don't want to spend any money.  Since the government doesn't come after them for bad service and such, again, no motivation.  The main utility for California just declare bankruptcy after causing so many fires. They will just carry on as normal.  Of course you go to rural areas you have Electric Co-ops. This was the only way rural areas were able to get electricity starting in the 1940s. There you will find a large chunk of the system under ground, and well maintained. Amazing what non-profit utility does.

New developments and such generally have underground, but soon as you leave the sub, it goes back on a pole.  Like everything else, going back and replacing an above ground line with underground doesn't have a value add generally, so it's not going to change.  Running poles thru a wetland is easier than underground, and easier thru solid rock, over mountains, etc.  Poles have a place, but in towns, they really need to go away since folks want trees on their property but that always means trees falling on lines.

We already have the standing rule that with substantial changes to the electrical installations you have to conform to the newer rules. But policing on that is nonexistent. They still sell used houses for half a million euros without rcd's.

Everything is grandfathered here. Unless you are doing massive reno to something, old can stay. If you got knob and tube in your house, as long as you don't alter that part of the house it can stay.  In general until you open up a wall, it can stay, and even then it's just where your modifying.  This is for all aspects of building. No one gets forced to upgrade anything. Also probably safe to say most homehowners don't pull permits, thus no building inspection on their work. Plus once you leave cities/large towns there is no code-enforcement/permits anyway. States all have building code that apply to all, but without any code enforcement/permits people just wing it.  Generally people doing stuff understand what they are doing well enough or just do it the way it always has been done. So recent changes or minor things get lost to them.  This is changing more now that insurance companies are pressuring code enforcement to exist. But still, if someone doesn't pull a permit, it's not like anyone will ever know about what they did.

 

[DeformedTree]

I think DC will be what causes global standards.  If the world can get standardized on specs/plugs folks will just start adding DC to houses.  It's been tried before, but now due to solar and such has a better chance.

USB is a good example but it's also an example of the problem.  Folks started putting in USB plugs in walls a while back, now there is USB-C, so they now need to change. How long will USB-C be the plug?  And of course it is only good for small devices.

If DC can get it's act together it could replace AC for most consumer goods.  AC will be left for large loads, motors, induction cooking.

Something like powertools would probably stay AC, since I doubt any DC system would go beyond 100V.  What could happen is all tools become cordless, and makers sell AC-DC adapters that plug into the battery connection.  That is probably the idea situation.  If a Kapex death was fixed by just buying a new adapter, just like buying a new power brick for a laptop, it wouldn't be so bad.

 

[kevinculle]

...aaaand as Kapexes continue to go up in smoke the focus here on the FOG is reengineering global electrical supply standards.  Interesting that Chinese small appliance manufacturers sell millions of cheap and functioning mixers, blenders and other motorized gizmos across the world while Festool cannot yet root-cause or remediate smoking motor failures in its overpriced and apparently dainty SCMS.

 

[six-point socket II]

Honestly, I think it was one of the best decisions I've ever made to put outlets with additional USB-A sockets in. And if needed I gladly replace them with USB-C in due time.

I'm not running after every new gadget/phone, so it will be quite a while before USB-A is vanishing/ has totally vanished in this place.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Coen]

plug stuff..

I think you would just have to live here.  We use one plug for everything*.  The other plugs are things you barely ever use or specialty purposes and they have a good reason for it. No one ever gets frustrated with plugs here as we have just 1.  While those other plugs exist, few ever un-hook a dryer and such. And for things like their RV or generator you don't want them the same.  We can't run say a dryer off the regular plug because 240V/16A isn't enough, dryers take 240V, 30-40A.  Keep in mind a lot of items don't use a plug and are just connected directly to junction box.  A slide in range will generally use a plug, but a built in cooktop or wall oven uses a direct connection to the junction box. Some of those plug options that were shown are due to the transistion to 4 wire from 3.  Before the 90s neutral and ground didn't have seperate pins.  Code now requires 4 wire, but you are allowed to connect via 3 wire if you have an old house, or an old appliance.

7-9 kW for a dryer? That's insane. Most sold model here is 1 kW. Only the cheap ones are inefficient and use 2,8 kW. Either can be connected on a normal outlet. Cooktops are usually connected over Perilex here (residential) or CEE plug (commercial). Direct wiring is fine too.

Untill recently connection to NG grid was mandatory for new housing with few exceptions. With like 1 year notice all new applications were banned from connection to the NG grid. Lot's of people bitched and whined before the first houses under the new rule were even build. It turned out just fine. We rarely ever have a problem with NG explosions.

Resistive heating here is about 2.5 times more expensive than heating with gas, so nobody does it. There was a short rage in the '80s, but that died off quickly.

Mandating connection to something would end badly. Plus there is no way to implement that.  Forcing homes to be connected to a private company? Plus folks are trying to go off grid.  Same with electricity, plenty of place are not connected simply because their is no electric runs in the area. Even when the road has service, people find out that running power from the road to their building could cost them 20-30,000 dollars, they decide to stay off grid, use generator, install solar.

The connection mandate was for new housing. The grids are owned by companies whose stock is fully owned by different parts of the government.

They even connected rural areas here. But given population density here, it makes sense. Even our "rural" areas are not near as uninhabited as in the USA.

When the water companies here switched to plastic tubing they just send a letter saying everybody had to stop using their stuff as earth connection and get their own earth electrode. Progress happens. People with asbestos on the outside of their roof also have to change it out on their own dime.

Water lines were generally supplemental grounds here.  Houses have ground rod(s), that tie to the panel.  Other stuff is bonded (water pipes, gas pipes, etc) back to the ground system.  Changes to more plastic has causes changes there, generally confusion because people are un-sure what to do when something is a mix of metal and plastic.  Stuff like PEX in homes is still fairly new, lots of people still insist on copper, some cities/states only fairly recently began to allow PEX. 

They have ground rods here too, or mats. But for some time they used the water connection for that. In some areas the ground is provided by the net.

What about the children when that thing explodes? Yeah, the overhead lines puzzle me too. It used to be the same here when going into Germany; the cyclepath ends, the wiring becomes above ground, the windows are smaller and no PVC rainwater piping on houses. The above wiring is less and less though.
But in NL digging them into the ground might be a lot easier since the soft soil everywhere.

I don't know how your gov/utility interaction works.  Here they are classified as a public utility, which basically imposes some rules far as billing. But for the most part the government has no say over anything the utility does. They have a monopoly, so it's not like you can speak with your wallet. So they have zero motivation to improve things. They wait for parts to fail, then just fix it enough to be back running again.  This is why they don't go back thru and bury stuff. They will claim some sky high price to do it.  The reality is they just don't want to spend any money.  Since the government doesn't come after them for bad service and such, again, no motivation.  The main utility for California just declare bankruptcy after causing so many fires. They will just carry on as normal.  Of course you go to rural areas you have Electric Co-ops. This was the only way rural areas were able to get electricity starting in the 1940s. There you will find a large chunk of the system under ground, and well maintained. Amazing what non-profit utility does.

The grid company is separate from the companies that own the power stations. The grid company can however force these companies to produce in case of shortages. The grid company might be a private company, but all the stock is owned by the government. The companies that own the power stations all have to 'rent' the same grid. Everyone can pick and choose between a dozen different companies for power. Nobody really cares for that "competition" here as it was just fine before. Now it's also fine but the power companies make adds now... They get new customers by giving them a "free" iPad...
I've long had the idea that in general private companies in the US offer better service than private companies here, but the complete reverse with government-owned stuff.

New developments and such generally have underground, but soon as you leave the sub, it goes back on a pole.  Like everything else, going back and replacing an above ground line with underground doesn't have a value add generally, so it's not going to change.  Running poles thru a wetland is easier than underground, and easier thru solid rock, over mountains, etc.  Poles have a place, but in towns, they really need to go away since folks want trees on their property but that always means trees falling on lines.

For a country were companies mandate that employees hold the rail when going up or down the stairs those poles + above ground lines are a bigger danger I would think.

We already have the standing rule that with substantial changes to the electrical installations you have to conform to the newer rules. But policing on that is nonexistent. They still sell used houses for half a million euros without rcd's.

Everything is grandfathered here. Unless you are doing massive reno to something, old can stay. If you got knob and tube in your house, as long as you don't alter that part of the house it can stay.  In general until you open up a wall, it can stay, and even then it's just where your modifying.  This is for all aspects of building. No one gets forced to upgrade anything. Also probably safe to say most homehowners don't pull permits, thus no building inspection on their work. Plus once you leave cities/large towns there is no code-enforcement/permits anyway. States all have building code that apply to all, but without any code enforcement/permits people just wing it.  Generally people doing stuff understand what they are doing well enough or just do it the way it always has been done. So recent changes or minor things get lost to them.  This is changing more now that insurance companies are pressuring code enforcement to exist. But still, if someone doesn't pull a permit, it's not like anyone will ever know about what they did.

Here it's just the professional electricians saying you will not be insured in case of [x] if you DIY anything electrical, but that's not the case in reality. As long as you don't change anything you can get away with ancient stuff yes. The changes after the 60s didn't have to be applied retroactively.

I think DC will be what causes global standards.  If the world can get standardized on specs/plugs folks will just start adding DC to houses.  It's been tried before, but now due to solar and such has a better chance.

USB is a good example but it's also an example of the problem.  Folks started putting in USB plugs in walls a while back, now there is USB-C, so they now need to change. How long will USB-C be the plug?  And of course it is only good for small devices.

If DC can get it's act together it could replace AC for most consumer goods.  AC will be left for large loads, motors, induction cooking.

Something like powertools would probably stay AC, since I doubt any DC system would go beyond 100V.  What could happen is all tools become cordless, and makers sell AC-DC adapters that plug into the battery connection.  That is probably the idea situation.  If a Kapex death was fixed by just buying a new adapter, just like buying a new power brick for a laptop, it wouldn't be so bad.

https://www.directcurrent.eu/en/ pushes a DC standard with 350Vdc. They converted some greenhouses to fully DC, saving energy.

I see the US residential market going to 12VDC before we go 220VAC. With the exception of a handful of items, almost everything in the american home has a step-down to 'low voltage' someplace.

Led lighting...stepped down
televisions....stepped down
laptops/computers.... stepped down

Basically if it is not a 'major appliance' or does not have a motor, it is stepped down either on the cord or internally.

I am starting to see, finally, USB wall outlets installed into new homes on a regular basis (not enough though). Personally, I think it should be added to the NEC.

While I fully realize that a USB cable/outlet can only handle a small amount of current/power, the old school automotive cigarette lighter socket was good for 20 amps/275 watts. So there is room for something in between.

LED light bulbs often have a lot of LED's in series. There is not much stepping down there. They often sell these buls in two configurations; with one series string for 230V area and two parallel series strings for 110V.

Going 12V everywhere would be a huge PITA since you would tenfold the current. Lots of phone charger already lose 20% in the cable...

If you tenfold the current, you tenfold the voltage loss. But 1 volt lost on 110V is not a problem. 10 volts lost on 12.... is.

 

[Gregor]

I see the US residential market going to 12VDC before we go 220VAC.

To wire a house 12VDC is about the worst thing you could do: Way thicker cables needed to carry the amperage, problems with voltage drops on longer lines, switches and plugs with vastly reduced lifetime caused by arcing, ...

Can we get back on topic now?

 

[Rollin22Petes]

Well our shop Kapex has gone out again this makes 4 times absolutely ridiculous. So I decided to give Festool a call well that was a mistake the young man I talked with said I was probably using a dull or dirty blade. I've been a professional woodworker longer than this young gentleman has been alive and told him that was not the case well then he said the saw has a lot of electronics in it. Ok I get that but have an 8 man shop with tools from the cheapest harbor freight heat gun to $130,000.00 BIESEE cnc and everything in between and no other tool has these problems. Well the next thing he said is I don't know what to tell you it's just a trim saw by this time if I could have reached through then phone I probably would have punched him square in the face well maybe not but I sure felt like it. So what does that even mean its just a trim saw can I only cut small piece  of wood? if you take a look in some of there catalogs it shows people cutting large pieces such as 2x6's or 8/4 material I'm not sure about you guys but I don't consider that trim to me that is  misleading or false advertisement ? I forgot and mention that saw is out of warranty so I debated on getting it fixed or not. The thing is I really like the saw so I sent it in for repair and to my surprise Festool repaired it for free so I have to give them credit for that and I have always had good experiences with the repair department. The saw came back in a timely manner and had a bunch of new parts installed it didn't even need so a huge THANKS to the guys in service. Interesting thing on the card they send back stating what has been repaired there is no longer a box to check for the Armature it just says motor components. I really don't see how people keep buying this saw and I really fell sorry for those folks who just don't any better. I know Festool would never acknowledge it but I hope the model coming this has a addressed these issues I would love to buy a second but not until have reassurance that motor problem has been resolved. I know people get tired of seeing these kinda post but a  saw that has went through 4 motors in 4 years I couldn't keep silent I'm pretty disappointed. I thought the saw was built for the toughest demands obviously not. 

 

[Jaybolishes]

There isn’t anything different in the new kapex motor. It’s the same motor. If someone buys the new one just cross your fingers and roll the dice and enjoy it for the 3 year warranty while you’re covered.

 

[ChuckM]

A $1500 CMS for trim work only? I would become the town's laughing stock if I told my woodworking friends that was what I bought a Kapex for! It must have been an ill-prepared response on the part of the Festool service fellow.

I wish Festool did come up with a new motor for its new Kapex and that the new motor could be installed in the old generation of Kapex. I would have been willing to pay to have the new motor installed -- removing the cloud of worry on my saw once and for all.

 

[Cheese]

There isn’t anything different in the new kapex motor. It’s the same motor. If someone buys the new one just cross your fingers and roll the dice and enjoy it for the 3 year warranty while you’re covered.

And how do you know this? It hasn’t been released yet in the states and the new Kapex still hasn’t been entered into Ekat.

Even when it’s entered into Ekat, the part numbers may or may not be significant.

Just curious as to your insight on this because I’m also a Kapex owner.

 

[DeformedTree]

I wonder if the poster was commenting on the repaired unit having same motor as it would have had before it failed.

As you say, we know nothing about the new one.  Even if the motor was 100% the same one, you can be sure Festool would give it a different PN just so people can't say it's the same motor.  Reality though is I don't think anyone thinks the new one will be the same motor. I would lean more towards Festool spec'd a motor that will run fine even if it's down to like 80V, pulling 25A.  They know it will be a bad day if the new one starts killing motors.

 

[onevw]

I have a Kapex but do not use it for heavy work.
It does look as though Festool just designed this saw for light use and did not design any extra protection in the system for work past the light use design.

One good thing is this post has not been deleted by Festool yet, so too cover up any problems with this saw.

This looks like a need for damage control at the executive level. The Germans to not do this very well. It's like never admitting defeat and pushing the problem off to the customer. Just look at BMW, VW, Audi, and some others.

This lack of company control is a problem with the controlling directors of the company and lack of control does have negative impact on the BRAND.

As a X owner when I found out we had generated this type of problem Instant forced terminations took place to save our investment in our BRAND.

What do you all think?

FYI

I own and use many Festool products for personal use 25 systainer's so far, but in business use we try not to buy it and look for USA/UK Machines tools. We have found these systems can be pushed past the design limits.

Rick

 

[DeformedTree]

While many would agree with you, it will still keep coming down to the matter that we will never know how many saws had issues. It very well may be a small number of them or some specific use case/environment.  So it's easy to go after Festool, but they very well could be just as baffled as users, and it could also be a very small percentage of sales.  Internet has been good/bad here.  It allows people to find stuff out that they never could before, thus companies pushing really bad products do get filtered. At the same time it can cause a small issues on a small number of units to look like a massive problem when it's not.

If it was an easy fix, Festool would have done a running change long ago and moved on.  So they very well don't know why they fail. This happens, I have seen in my career folks chase an issue and apply changes, beef stuff up, etc and it didn't fix it, simply because the issue was something far more nuanced then it looked like on face value.  Products end up with these issues because of this. They made it through testing in development because the testing, design specs, etc don't account for on obscure condition in the design space. The same process that has been used for decades with no issues for some reason didn't catch something this time.

This is why I suspect we will see a motor beefed up in all ways on the new model, with the hope of covering it even if they might not fully understand the issue.

We also take folks on their word of what they were doing/have done with their saws when they failed. I hope most people are honest, but human nature is always there and people will tone down their actions even if they have no idea they are.  More than a few saws have probably died when the user was doing something clearly bad for it, but that doesn't mean others didn't do everything right and it failed.

 

[Cheese]

Just look at BMW, VW, Audi, and some others.

Rather reminds me of the Audi unintended acceleration issues in the late 70's and early 80's. It's literally taken Audi 20+ years to claw their way back from that debacle.  [eek]
https://www.autosafety.org/audi-sudden-acceleration/

 

[vkumar]

I accept what you say [member=68063]DeformedTree[/member] , that sometimes it is hard to find the root cause of failures.  However you do not find competitive saws from Dewalt, Milwaukee, Ridgid, Makita, Hitachi failing, since these saws outsell Festool by a good margin I would guess that even a small number of failures would be blown out of proportion. Their users have the same exposure to the internet just like Festool does.  Look at the number of youtube videos on these saws.  Perhaps it is the speed control which these saws lack is the culprit, or what Festool has to do to the motor windings to achieve speed control. There is also the culture behind that does not accept blame (witness Audi in the eighties with sudden acceleration, VW recently with dieselgate, Takata airbags and so on). I too have an extensive product development background and feel that Festool has not done enough to make this problem go away.

While many would agree with you, it will still keep coming down to the matter that we will never know how many saws had issues. It very well may be a small number of them or some specific use case/environment.  So it's easy to go after Festool, but they very well could be just as baffled as users, and it could also be a very small percentage of sales.  Internet has been good/bad here.  It allows people to find stuff out that they never could before, thus companies pushing really bad products do get filtered. At the same time it can cause a small issues on a small number of units to look like a massive problem when it's not.

If it was an easy fix, Festool would have done a running change long ago and moved on.  So they very well don't know why they fail. This happens, I have seen in my career folks chase an issue and apply changes, beef stuff up, etc and it didn't fix it, simply because the issue was something far more nuanced then it looked like on face value.  Products end up with these issues because of this. They made it through testing in development because the testing, design specs, etc don't account for on obscure condition in the design space. The same process that has been used for decades with no issues for some reason didn't catch something this time.

This is why I suspect we will see a motor beefed up in all ways on the new model, with the hope of covering it even if they might not fully understand the issue.

We also take folks on their word of what they were doing/have done with their saws when they failed. I hope most people are honest, but human nature is always there and people will tone down their actions even if they have no idea they are.  More than a few saws have probably died when the user was doing something clearly bad for it, but that doesn't mean others didn't do everything right and it failed.

 

[kevinculle]

Perhaps Festool needs to rebrand the Kapex SCMS as the Kapex DTMS (Dainty Trim Molding Saw) so that users don't try crazy stuff like crosscutting a 2x4 or a piece of hardwood lumber that might strain it beyond its intended use?

 

[jeh]

I ordered the replacement parts for mine as I like the saw. Mine lasted the better part of 7 or so years with moderate use. I did some looking before I ordered, but could not find anything I liked better.