Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.

[Jiggy Joiner]

Nah, mix it up and go gas powered tools. In this electric age you can feel all retro pull starting your 2 stroke saw. Or go all out and go steam power with belt drives.  No one expects someone to stoke the boiler with coal in the morning on a jobsite. Other workers can come over, brew up some coffee on the boiler and see they can get some belt time later in the day to drive their planner.  No more electrical safety concern.

[big grin] [big grin] [big grin] I like it it!

 

[jeh]

My Take on this
The problem is not that hard to sort out. This is simple off the shelf engineering not a new concept.

My experience with German engineering showed me the design is always just up too the specifications never over. They always design to the specs with no tolerance for customers pushing the envelope or improper use.

Other manufactures will always over design and dumb down the specs and just assume customers will be pushing the design envelop and customer misuse.

Rick

One of my suspicions is they didn't account for the variability in voltage around the world, that some folks can get some really poor power.  If they just looked at the general US spec that says 120V, with about plus minus 7V range, they may have messed up and not accounted for the reality that people can drop their voltages to near 100V pretty easily if depending on where they live or their service size, or service provider.  Of course Festool makes plenty of tools that work fine for the same people.  This is in part when people have been told "low voltage" by Festool, I have some skeptism.

All companies will use the "improper use"/"out of spec" claims.  Most just understand they need to build tools to handle way more than what they list on the spec sheet.

They use universal motors (as do the vast majority of hand held power tools). The allowance for fluctuations in voltage is built in.

 

[DeformedTree]

They use universal motors (as do the vast majority of hand held power tools). The allowance for fluctuations in voltage is built in.

Where it gets tricky is their speed control. So it's not a completely simple setup.  Part of my comment is due to folks saying they were told by Festool that the issue was low voltage.  Now you can't say that based on looking at the tool, you have to be there measuring when it happens. But if it looks like something drew too many amps, it would be a reasonable suspicion. If Festool's answer is the supply voltage was too low, then it would mean they have a design issue based on voltage which means they didn't cover the Voltage range in the design that they needed to.

Like I said, I'm skeptical of the "low voltage" statement by Festool, but if it is part of the issue then it would in general mean they didn't design to handle it.

 

[Bohdan]

Or could it be that they mean 110v tool when thay say "low voltage" as distinct from 230v.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

I was on a site last Friday, and there was a flooring company putting down 19mm Solid oak T&G.
I noticed two Kapex saws set up and an array of Festool kit. At tea break, I got talking with the boss of the company, and I asked him about his experience with the Kapex.
He told me the company had bought four of the 120’s at various dates but they were all 110 volt.
He said two of the saws had never missed a beat, where as one of the others was on it’s second replacement motor, and the other saw was on replacement number three!

He said nearly every time one failed, there was a slight burning smell, a plume of smoke and that was it. He said it all seemed random, sometimes it would happen halfway through the day, and one went early one morning after just two cuts.
He said that sometimes the switches were replaced as well as the motors when repaired.

I asked him if he’d buy any more, and he said yes he would, as apart from the issue, and inconvenience, they’re a great saw, and in his opinion the best.
Bearing in mind, that all of his were repaired under warranty, not sure how he’d feel if he’d have paid for the repairs?
He questioned Festool, asking why so many failures, and apparently they told him they sell so many of the saws, and so a percentage will possibly have issues?
He was a die hard Festool fan though, and to be fair, said all of his other vast collection of Festool had never let him down.

I think he said he’s a member here, so may well comment about his experiences, if he hasn’t already.

 

[Jaybolishes]

Jiggy that is an embarrassing story for festool.  Kinda puts all this baloney “we don’t know the actual number of failures” to rest. Absolutely ridiculous this has gone on for so long and all you hear from the company crickets. Smh

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

Jiggy that is an embarrassing story for festool.  Kinda puts all this baloney “we don’t know the actual number of failures” to rest. Absolutely ridiculous this has gone on for so long and all you hear from the company crickets. Smh

Yes it is indeed embarrassing, I was actually thinking as much when the chap was telling me. I was also trying to hide my surprise at him telling me he’d still buy them again?

My own thoughts were, although this company provided other services than flooring, the Kapex’s they were using, were dedicated to their flooring division. Again just my opinion but, I would say a Kapex 120 is overkill cutting floor boards and finishing trims, as opposed to somebody using one for first fixing or roof joists etc?
So, I cannot imagine these saws were over worked, and seeing how these people operated, definitely not abused in any way.
Even one of my cordless miter saws would have easily coped with the work they were doing.

Great shame as I said before, not so much because the issue is actually there, more of a shame at how long it’s gone on, and with no concrete reason of why it happens.
I would expect Festool to have fixed the issue very quickly, and made customers and potential customers, feel as though they shouldn’t be having doubts or losing confidence.

I had a similar experience with Fein, until they started being more truthfull. This isn’t a dig at Festool, as they have been handed a lot of my hard earned, just like the rest of you, and that will no doubt continue, and I’m often amazed at their ideas and pioneering but, surely the mighty Festool can put this issue to bed, and confirm so?

If I buy a tool from any maker, and itis not right, I normally ask for a replacement as I like to give the benefit of the doubt. However if the replacement is also not right, then I get a refund and move on.
So, this is how I view the Kapex, I initially went to buy one a long time ago after seeing them on site. When I heard of the issues the doubt set in, and we all know what doubt can do.
Then I researched a bit more, and decided that there is obviously a real issue with some of saws, enough for me not to buy one until Festool state that the problem is fixed once and for all.

There are no doubt many very happy owners, that probably can’t understand what the fuss is all about, until their saw starts smoking.  [scared]

 

[Cheese]

Thanks for the post Jiggy...that's not good for Festool. [sad]

One of Festools explanations in the past is that they have no control over what the saws are used for, how the operators use/treat the saws and what type of power they receive. All of which I can fully agree with.

However, this little episode reads rather like a controlled experiment of sorts in that saw usage was standardized, operator usage was standardized and the power supplied was standardized. I'm not saying that everything was absolutely equal but certainly more equal than evaluating the results from Tom's Trim Shop vs Dan's Deck Repair.

So the scary thing here is there were winners and losers in this experiment with no apparent consistent reason for failure. This is not good for Kapex owners and not good for Festool. [crying] [crying]

 

[harry_]

JimH2:
You may be right. But... I wonder...
How many faithful current Festool buyer/owners of a variety of their products -
Read this long, ongoing lament about Kapex problems/failures -
And would REALLY like to buy one... But, just won’t take the risk.
I’m one of them.

These Kapex problems/failures -
May, or may not be, a small number of all the Kapex sold.
But, in the business of marketing - And ultimately, the selling products -
PERCEPTION IS (BECOMES) REALITY.

Being a member of The Fog for decade before I purchased my first and I have since purchased a second (via recon).

For me it was never about the reliability holding off the purchase, it was the cost.

 

[kevinculle]

One can understand a cheap tool being less than perfectly reliable, but a tool costing 3 or 4 times typical that's also fragile?

 

[DeformedTree]

Thanks for the post Jiggy...that's not good for Festool. [sad]

One of Festools explanations in the past is that they have no control over what the saws are used for, how the operators use/treat the saws and what type of power they receive. All of which I can fully agree with.

However, this little episode reads rather like a controlled experiment of sorts in that saw usage was standardized, operator usage was standardized and the power supplied was standardized. I'm not saying that everything was absolutely equal but certainly more equal than evaluating the results from Tom's Trim Shop vs Dan's Deck Repair.

So the scary thing here is there were winners and losers in this experiment with no apparent consistent reason for failure. This is not good for Kapex owners and not good for Festool. [crying] [crying]

And this gets to the heart of the problem. Take what this company has seen with their 4 saws and then trying to be Festool studying it.  It leans the direction of the problem away from it being the motor.  As I mentioned a while back in this thread, the armature burning up doesn't mean it is an issue of the armature, it can be the victim of some other part.  The saws that go thru motors probably have a part that is causing the motors to burn. But when inspecting saws, the killer part probably shows no sign of being wrong.  Even then though, if there is a killer in the tool, it only has the urge to kill rarely.  So even if all 4 where sent in for study, how long, if ever would it take for Festool to witness a murder. And would they have it instrumented up in a way to detect what went wrong.  If it's some highly intermittent glitch in a chip on a control board, good luck ever tracking it down. At some point you'd almost have to replace every part that is different from the 230 to 110V models to either a different vendor or PN, make these boards or what ever in batches, and ship them out in tools and wait to see what ones come in for failures.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

I always thought at the back of my mind, that the issue was with a faulty batch of motors, from what I’ve read here and heard from users etc, I’m starting to think that it may be something else causing the issue.

Also, trying to be fair to Festool, the thing about them telling somebody, that they can’t be held accountable for how the saw is used by an individual, and power sources and fluctuations etc, does carry some merit. However, I don’t know about anybody else but, I don’t hear of other makes of miter saw having motor issues, and smoking etc?
So surely that alone should alert Festool that the problem is real?

I have new and old miter saws, various makes, and some are 30+ years old, and the only replacement parts they had, are brushes and blades, and these saws were used daily for years.
Does anybody know if the Kapex motor is used in any other application, even non Festool? If so, I wonder how it fairs?

Perhaps Festool really don’t know why some of these saws let go, as otherwise surely they would eliminate the problem?

 

[Doug S]

When I go to tool shows I always ask the Festool representatives about the Kapex motor problems and the answers I have had are....

"There is no problem"

"There was a problem with a few early models"

"Think there was a batch of bad parts"

"We have had some problems but it has been sorted out"

Would be nice to get official answer.

 

[kevinculle]

Two failures in a sample of four gently used saws isn't exactly a marginal problem.

 

[Cheese]

Two failures in a sample of four gently used saws isn't exactly a marginal problem.

Or to put it in another way, 7 armatures in 4 saws isn’t exactly a marginal problem.

I kind of harken back to DeformedTree’s analogy of a “killer part” somewhere in the mix.

Why do some saws have absolutely no issue while others are on their 3rd armature? What’s the likelihood that 2 faulty armatures were pulled off the shelf years apart from each other and then installed and consequently failed ?

Aligning with the current popular conspiracy theory subscribers  [sad] [sad] there’s a ticking time bomb inside certain Kapex’s.

 

[DeformedTree]

When I go to tool shows I always ask the Festool representatives about the Kapex motor problems and the answers I have had are....

"There is no problem"

"There was a problem with a few early models"

"Think there was a batch of bad parts"

"We have had some problems but it has been sorted out"

Would be nice to get official answer.

Well, they have to dance around the issue. Those folks you're talking to probably have no idea and can only do official deflections. If they did known something and spoke out of turn, they risk being fired as everyone knows what ever they say will be posted online in a hurry.  In general I wouldn't go trying to put someone in their position on the spot. It's not like the correct/official/one true answer is just going to be magically produced right then and there.

 

[Gregor]

Windings (both rotor and strator) of a well designed motor normally shouldn't burn up as long is it isn't blocked (thus only one winding is energized constantly and no airflow from the fan to cool it), so failing electronics used for RPM control shouldn't be a possible source of problems.

I suggest to watch 21:09 to 21:56 of the AvE TS 55 youtube video (that isn't allowed to be linked here for some reason) where he talks about the strator winding and would like to ask everyone who does/did self-repair on a Kapex with motor failure to compare said part of that video to the the fault they located in their machine - and possibly, if so kind, to enlighten the rest of us (who don't have a dead one to look outselves) if there is a connection between the two.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

Two failures in a sample of four gently used saws isn't exactly a marginal problem.

Or to put it in another way, 7 armatures in 4 saws isn’t exactly a marginal problem.

I kind of harken back to DeformedTree’s analogy of a “killer part” somewhere in the mix.

Why do some saws have absolutely no issue while others are on their 3rd armature? What’s the likelihood that 2 faulty armatures were pulled off the shelf years apart from each other and then installed and consequently failed ?

Aligning with the current popular conspiracy theory subscribers  [sad] [sad] there’s a ticking time bomb inside certain Kapex’s.

That’s currently my sort of thinking too Cheese.

As for the “problem, what problem?” that some have had said to them by Festool. It reminds me of a story I’ve heard a few times regarding Rolls Royce.
Some time in the 70’s a chap in England apparently took delivery of a brand new Rolls.
A few weeks later, the owner decided to tour parts of Europe in the new Rolls.
After just a few weeks, the car apparently developed overheating issues, and then an engine rattle.
The owner was said to have spoken to his dealer, who asked for his location. A few days later, a courtesy Rolls arrived at the hotel he was staying in. Also a mobile workshop arrived, in the form of a large box lorry/truck.

The problem car was loaded into the mobile workshop, and emerged two days later, running as sweet as a Rolls Royce could be.
The owner was given a lengthy apology, and some champagne. When he asked what the problem was, the technician explained the car had a minor fault that had now been corrected.
So the owner asks why it took two days to fix? He was told that after the repair, they wanted to thoroughly check the car over, before handing it back over.

Apparently, it transpired afew months later, that a complete new engine had been fitted into the car. I don’t know how true this story is but, I’ve been told it a few times.

It reminds me of Festool’s attitude over the Kapex, instead of admitting there’s an issue, and risking the rep of such a respected company, they just make the issue go away (for now) and play it down as a minor niggle?

 

[DashZero]

Rolls Rouce.  In 1976 my father purchased a New Rolls Royce Silver Shadow. It had two problems that lasted all the way until 1994 when it was traded to an owner of another car dealership.

The first problem was the car would always drain the battery or randomly refuse to start.  The car was kept permanently on a battery tender and I finally purschased a “Sears Die Hard Gold” battery.  The battery was guaranteed for as long as you owned the car.  This was in the mid 1980s.  Every month I would bring the dead battery to Sears and they would give me a new battery. This problem never was fixed by Rolls Royce or any of the other people that looked at the problem over the years.

The second problem was related to many things being hydraulic on the car.  It was surmised that during one of the first services the mechanic put the wrong fluid in and some seals deteriated.  It leaked hydraulic fluid the entire time we had the vehicle, in different spots and finally mostly in one area but we never could track down where.

Initially app service was done by the Dealership the first year. Then the dealership never sold anymore Rolls Royce’s and the stopped selling them. We had to resort to independent mechanics.  The factory ones never could find the problem anyway.

This car was a left hand drive US model.  The owner of the dealership the car was finally traded in to in 1994 had a right drive of the same year and wanted a left hand drive.  Within two weeks of them having the car, it was shipped to one of their homes across the country, their mechanic fixed the hydraulic fluid leak.  There was a completely undocumented hidden seal between the firewall and some other part.  No one at the factory had every seen or knew of it, outside the original person that built that part.  Except this mechanic.  Apparently unless you had put the wrong fluid and deteriorate that seal, as well as others that had been replaced, you never would have had the leak and known to completely disassemble that area of the car just to get to the one seal causing the problem.

The first service before the leaking seal, my father got the bill.  On it it said “Adjust pneumatic cylinders, Quantity 4, price each $75, total $300

My father being a car guy had never heard of a pneumatic cylinder, and went and asked the service department to explain the charge.  At that time the Factory Mechanic from England was still here in the USA training the dealership. He walked outside and said “There sir” as he pointed.  My father was confused and didn’t see him pointed at any thing specific.  He asked the mechanic once again to show him exactly what was done.  The mechanic replied “Surely you jest?” In a tone that angered my father as he realized the charges were $75 each to put air into the tires.  My father replied “not for $75 each and that is unacceptable”. My father refused to pay that part of the bill, even after they told him if you can afford this car you can afford the price to air the tires.  My father explained he could afford the car because he didn’t go around letting people charge him such a ridiculous price for airing up tires. After that it became my job as a kid to wash the car by hand and always air up the tires.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

DashZero, That’s an interesting story, thank you for sharing.

It just might explain why sometimes over the years, when working at the homes of wealthy people, I have seen Rolls Royces in the garage with the battery on trickle charge. We’ve joked that even a Roller can have a flat battery, perhaps it was a characteristic of certain models?