Another New Product - CMS

[Administrator_JSVN]

OK, next question, can the CMS-GE be joined to the MFT/3 with the connectors? I think the idea of a stand alone unit would be a better idea for guy working onsite.

Brice, I would hate to give you the wrong answer.  Forrest may be better able to give you the right answer on this one.  I suspect the answer is yes but I don't have even knowledge about the CMS-GE.  We have one in the office and I can try to get a definitive answer on Monday if Forrest doesn't beat me to it  [smile]

 

[Forrest Anderson]

OK, next question, can the CMS-GE be joined to the MFT/3 with the connectors? I think the idea of a stand alone unit would be a better idea for guy working onsite.

Brice, I would hate to give you the wrong answer.  Forrest may be better able to give you the right answer on this one.  I suspect the answer is yes but I don't have even knowledge about the CMS-GE.  We have one in the office and I can try to get a definitive answer on Monday if Forrest doesn't beat me to it  [smile]

I'd like to hear the definitive answer myself!

The MFT/3 brochure specifically says that the MFT/3 "connects to the Compact Module System CMS".

Having said that, I'm not at all convinced that the CMS-GE legstand can be easily joined to the MFT/3. I have not seen any photos of the two units joined together, and reckon that the MFT/3-VL is the only official way to join CMS modules to the MFT/3.

The CMS-GE lacks a usable T-slot in the side rails, so it can't be joined to the MFT/3 using the same Connecting Piece VS (Order No 484455) that is used to connect two MFTs together.

For ease of reference, here are photos of the CMS, MFT/3 and the MFT/3-VL

Shane - on Monday, when you are checking to see if the CMS-GE and MFT/3 can be connected together, can you check to see if the MFT/3-VL can connect to the CMS-GE? Although it's not what Brice was after, some people might well like the idea of having two CMS modules side-by side in one unit.

Forrest

 

[Wim]

I'm in the process of moving to the USA permanently. So I will sell my "European" Festool stuff. But I think to keep the CMS table and related components. In the USA, all I have to do is find a new circuit-breaker and plugs and I'm rolling. I have to wrap the table very carefully and then I can carry it with me as baggage on my next flight to the USA. I'm allowed two pieces of baggage of 50 ponds each. Then I don't have to wait until Festool USA sees the light.  [wink]
The alternative is to make a MFT/3 look alike and make adaptors for the saw and router, Steve Jones style.

Wim,

The 240V probably won't be an issue, but isn't it 50Hz in Europe?   We're 60Hz kinda folks over here.  Will that be an issue?

Dan.

Dan,

I don't think the 240V will be much of a problem for our 230V tools, even the 60Hz will just result in more RPM for the 50Hz motors. But I think a delicate item as a circuit-breaker may cause trouble. Magnetic coils may react differently with other frequencies as the original ones. And for a safety item, I don't like to take any risc.
Next week I will be over to the USA (for 3 months) and I will start converting part of the basement into a workshop. The house is wired for 120V with 10A breakers only. So I have to add some 15A and 20A fuses and roll out wiring for light and wall sockets.

 

[koop]

Shane - on Monday, when you are checking to see if the CMS-GE and MFT/3 can be connected together, can you check to see if the MFT/3-VL can connect to the CMS-GE? Although it's not what Brice was after, some people might well like the idea of having two CMS modules side-by side in one unit.

I have the MFT3 and the MFT/3-VL; the VL connects to the MFT using the V-nut groove.
I don't have a CMS-GE (yet) but i think you can connect the GE and VL together since they both have the V-nut groove. I don't think you can physically connect the MFT and the CMS-GE. They should be the same height though.

The router insert ( i use it with the OF1010) is excellent!

Rogier Koop

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I have the MFT3 and the MFT/3-VL; the VL connects to the MFT using the V-nut groove.

Would there be any chance of you taking a photo of the actual connection? There are very few photos of the VL around, and I'd be interested to see what type of clamping mechanism is involved.

I don't have a CMS-GE (yet) but i think you can connect the GE and VL together since they both have the V-nut groove. I don't think you can physically connect the MFT and the CMS-GE. They should be the same height though.

That's my line of thought too. And if it is possible to connect the MFT/3-VE extension to the CMS-GE leg set, then it's also likely that the -VE extension can be connected to the CS50 and CS70 Precisio table saws, as they have the same height and V-groove as the CMS-GE.

Forrest

 

[koop]

closeup of clamping mechanism:

mated together (without insert). the hexagonal screw are there clamp the VL to the MFT, half the time i don't bother. The MFT-VL has 2 adjustable legs, so you can put it level with the MFT

closeup of the grooves: (the same as on the MFT)

 

[Forrest Anderson]

closeup of clamping mechanism:

mated together (without insert). the hexagonal screw are there clamp the VL to the MFT, half the time i don't bother. The MFT-VL has 2 adjustable legs, so you can put it level with the MFT

closeup of the grooves: (the same as on the MFT)

Many thanks for the photos! It's now clear how the -VL attached to the MFT/3. It does indeed look as though the -VL could attach to the CMS-GE, CS70 and CS70 as well.

Much appreciated.

Forrest

 

[awdriven]

Consider this one more vote from someone who is ready to pick up a CMS and the TS and OF modules as soon as you're ready to offer it in the USA. It's way cheaper than expanding the size of my shop!

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Sorry, I know this is an old posting but I was tied up back when this thread was last active.

Changes in frequency do not impact universal motors. It is induction motors that will run faster or slower from 50/60 Hz. Universal motors will change speed when the voltage changes. I didn't think the CMS had a magnetic switch, but if it does, it too will be immune to the change in frequency.

I'm in the process of moving to the USA permanently. So I will sell my "European" Festool stuff. But I think to keep the CMS table and related components. In the USA, all I have to do is find a new circuit-breaker and plugs and I'm rolling. I have to wrap the table very carefully and then I can carry it with me as baggage on my next flight to the USA. I'm allowed two pieces of baggage of 50 ponds each. Then I don't have to wait until Festool USA sees the light.  [wink]
The alternative is to make a MFT/3 look alike and make adaptors for the saw and router, Steve Jones style.

Wim,

The 240V probably won't be an issue, but isn't it 50Hz in Europe?   We're 60Hz kinda folks over here.  Will that be an issue?

Dan.

Dan,

I don't think the 240V will be much of a problem for our 230V tools, even the 60Hz will just result in more RPM for the 50Hz motors. But I think a delicate item as a circuit-breaker may cause trouble. Magnetic coils may react differently with other frequencies as the original ones. And for a safety item, I don't like to take any risc.
Next week I will be over to the USA (for 3 months) and I will start converting part of the basement into a workshop. The house is wired for 120V with 10A breakers only. So I have to add some 15A and 20A fuses and roll out wiring for light and wall sockets.

 

[Wim]

Frequency has a slight influence on magnets on operating temperature. In combination with a capacitor its operation characteristics will be influenced more, but it depends on the specific values of the combination. Capacitor/resistor/coil combinations are used as filtering-elements in electronic circuits. For instance in your loudspeaker, to send the high and low tones to your tweeters and woofers.
So if you use a 50 Hz unit in a 60 Hz system, you should be careful and check the correct operation, especially with safety-elements as circuitbreakers.

 

[greg mann]

The gentleman had very nice things to say about the CMS. He especiall liked an overarm attachment that mounted on the back rail to carry a guide over the bit for freehand profiling. I have not been able to pull that accessory up on the UK website so I don't know what it is called. If you don't know what it is maybe Forrest can do his magic.

Greg

I wonder if it was really the CMS he was talking about? The modular system before the CMS came out was the Basis, which also had drop-in router, circular saw, jigsaw and belt sander modules, just like the more recent CMS.

The Basis and CMS are visually similar, but one difference is the side profiles - the Basis used T-slots on the side and top of the profiles like the MFT800/1080, whilst the CMS uses a V-groove along the top, rather like the MFT/3.

Anyway (getting back to the point!), one of the attachments for the Basis was the "Copying Device Basis 5 KE", described as "For Basis 5, Basis 5A and Basis 6A, copying roller with holder, dust extraction hood and hand guard". The order No was 484459. The Basis 5A and the 6A modules were the drop-in modules for the small (eg OF1010) and large (eg OF1400) routers.

Here is a picture of the item, which is listed at 73 GBP in the UK 2007 price list, but doesn't appear in subsequent editions:

It is shown as an accessory (Item 4) on page 89 of the Basis section of an Australian Festool catalogue, but the photo isn't very clear.

I've never met one in person(!), but from its appearance, it looks as though it would attach to the side T-slot on the Basis by means of the brass-coloured rectangular nut, and then stretch over the top of the router plate.

As far as I know, this accessory wasn't sold with a modified mounting suitable for attaching to the CMS, and is now obsolete.

Forrest

That does look like the attachment he raved about so you are probably correct that he was using the Basis, and the time-frame during which he was in England probably seals the deal. If it is an obsolete item, without a mounting for the CMS, too bad. But then, it is really just a conceptual exercise to re-create it either by finding one and making a new mount or just making a facsimile from scratch. Thanks for doing the research, Forrest. I would not want to steer anyone wrong by claiming a capability that no longer exists.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

So if you use a 50 Hz unit in a 60 Hz system, you should be careful and check the correct operation, especially with safety-elements as circuitbreakers.

Wim, you are overcomplicating an issue that does not need to be complicated within the range of 50 to 60 Hz. As I said in my previous posting, there is no reason for anyone to be concerned about operating the tools in this discussion from either 50 or 60 Hz power.

A universal motor (all Festool motors are universal motors) is called a "Universal Motor" because it is frequency independent, and will operate "universally" from either AC or DC power. The commutator is what reverses the coil polarity that causes motor rotation, and it is the commutator that establishes the frequency of the signal in the windings, so regardless how frequently the AC power is alternating in its waveform, the two opposing magnetic fields are always out of phase with each other. There may be minor variations between AC and DC operation, but within the range of 50 to 60 Hz, there is none.

There are no capacitors in a universal motor. You will find these only in single-phase induction motors (such as tablesaws). The primary frequency in the windings of a universal motor is not the incoming AC frequency. The motor is spinning at several thousand rpm, so the commutator is creating a frequency of several kHz in the windings, so the 50/60 Hz variation will not appreciably impact the magnitude of the magnetic fields.

The PWM module (if the tool has variable speed) operates at very high sampling frequencies compared to the 50/60 Hz, so the impact on the pulse train to the motor is virtually zero. The sampling frequency will vary by manufacturer, but it is up in the kHz to 10's kHz range. The control electronics are rectified, so they don't care about frequency at all (within the 50/60 Hz range). The capacitors that you see on your PWM module are there either to create the DC-bus, or are operating from the DC-bus, and in either case, they do not care about the 50/60 Hz variation.

As for the circuit breakers; thermal fuses, thermal breakers, and thermal-magnetic circuit breakers are also immune to frequency within the 50/60 Hz range. The set trip-point of these breakers and fuses is dictated by the thermal element, and it is immune to frequency within the 50/60 Hz range.

Even in the unlikely case where the magnetic portion of a thermal-magnetic breaker is not completely immune to variations in the 50/60 Hz range, the impact would still be trivial. That is because the purpose of the magnetic portion of a thermal-magnetic breaker is to provide instant short-circuit protection when the current exceeds several magnitudes above the set trip-point (caused by a short circuit). In other words, the magnetic portion of a thermal-magnetic breaker does not activate until the current is in the ballpark of 100 amps for a circuit breaker designed to trip at 20 amps. It is there to protect against short-circuits, so its precise trip point is not critical to the protection of the circuit. Moreover, you will not likely ever find thermal-magnetic type circuit breakers on a tool or accessory.

 

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the excellent explanation Rick.    [thumbs up]

Based on experience, I was fairly certain that there were no problems and now I know for sure that there are no problems.

 

[Paul Franklin]

Is there any news of if and when the CMS will arrive here in the USA?

Cheers

Paul

 

[awdriven]

I get excited every time this thread pops up - I am (im)patiently waiting too. I'd been hoping there would be some news when the catalog (or supplements) come out for the beginning of the year.

 

[GPowers]

I have my Credit Card in hand ready to start buying CMS stuff. Anything in the CMS line  that Festool brings to the USA! Please just do it soon. I do not want to buy a Kreg router table, I do not have the room..... [scared]

 

[Gene Howerton]

It would nice if they could make an announcement on the router table part of the CMS, since it is the most like Router tables that are already sold, table where you drop in the router and connect the plug to a start switch.  I already have that on my benchdog router table.  I think the saw option will be harder, since there is nothing like that here in the states.  But the question is will all of the CMS items sold in Europe fit in our USA CMS system.  If they sell the base unit and it matches the inserts in Europe.  If that is the case, I'm turning 50 soon and have never been to London, so then a trip is order, site seeing and Festool buying.

 

[b_m_hart]

Not holding my breath on this - I'm guessing that it's "close" to being released, but given the rate that Festool moves, I'll be happy to see this available by 2012...

 

[awdriven]

I just had to buy a FLEX-brand polisher because Festool still hasn't made the SHINEX available in the US. I hope festool can bring in the CMS before I need to buy a router table. (not very long now)

 

[GPowers]

I could not wait, bought the Kreg router table with the PC 7518 router and the Kreg lift. Nice thing about it is I will just leave the 7518 mounted in the table. Leaving the OF1400 ready for hand use. But then again I not hauling all my tool to a job site.