Any helpful tips for transferring accurate measurements for a non pro?

hockey_magnet

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I do a lot of smaller reno typ work, mostly for friends. My problems seem to be in the area of measuring and getting accurate results. If building something from scratch this doesn't seem to be as much of a problem but when doing molding, baseboards, trim for existing homes I seem to have problems - I end up with good results but have to use the "nibble" approach which drives me nuts. I always seem to "measure twice, cut 3 times"  [mad] . Any tips or advice in  terms of cutting down my trips to the saw? I'm usually using a Kapex and TS 55. I'm not looking for absolute perfection but as close as I can get. Any help would be appreciated. I'm sure some of this is repetition and practice related but since I'm not doing these jobs every day, I'd like to find a repeatable method that works consistently.

Chris
 
Chris,

I understand your position and frustration. When working on site and measuring there are too many non-square walls and I would rather as you say "cut 3 times" rather than cut twice and still be too short...

I work on site and unless I'm on site for a while.... will do as you do...and may cut three times... Things in transport could have been bumped. Once on site and have tested cuts and setting then I can get faster and dead on with my first cuts. But I error on the side of being a bit long/proud....as i don't want to be one half inch shy....  (sorry Paul).

Chris, it comes down to knowing your tools, and knowing how you measure. Same tape...or  someone else tells you... give it time... but one project a month and things won't change for you.  Use the tool every work day for 3-6 months...and thing will change.

Cheers,
Steve

 
Two thoughts:
1) The nibble approach works.  Take a deep breath and accept the fact that "it is what it is" and that is what it takes to achieve an acceptable result.

2) Lower your standards and invest in some caulk and wood filler.  

I know the answers seem sarcastic, but I choose between those two options all the time.  Making a value judgement as to what needs to be super tight/ perfect vs what is acceptable to the avg. homeowner is also key.  When you are staring at a cut, 1/32" may look like a mile- stand back and all is good.

Making a story stick where you can transfer marks might also help with lugging material back and forth to the saw.  Mark the line dead on, have confidence in your measurement, and cut it dead on.  ( you will find yourself with a lot of short wood if you do that  [tongue] )  Just for fun, limit yourself to two cuts and see what happens.    

I'm not sure there is a silver bullet, especially in renovation work.  Its the nature of the beast.    

 
Steve R said:
Chris, it comes down to knowing your tools, and knowing how you measure. Same tape...or  someone else tells you... give it time... but one project a month and things won't change for you.  Use the tool every work day for 3-6 months...and thing will change.

Cheers,
Steve

That is a good point!  I had two tapes that were 1/8" off from each other.  Now I like to stick with one tape through an entire project. 
 
I use the nibble approach a lot too. Works just fine for me. When it comes to measurement mistakes, I found that most of the time it's my head that's making the mistakes. I measure 36,5 cm and then when I mark the piece I do it at 35,5 cm. I've had too much of these silly mistakes over time so I had to adopt a system of checking and double checking to make sure it didn't happen again.

As for marking I always use a sharp knife. I don't like pencils for marking as the line itself often is 1 mm thick and this will introduce an error.
 
Thanks guys, I feel somewhat better - One of the great things with Festool at least is that with the great dust extraction, you can set up inside most of the time and don't have to run back and forth all the time. What set me off this time was I was set up in the basement which was the only place with room to set up so it was up and down the stairs many times - Well at least I didn't need to go for a workout at the gym  [smile]
 
Since 1959 I have not hired a cabinet maker or installer who was not comfortable using metric measurements. They make internal communication easier.

As for transferring marks, I am a major believer in story sticks in situations where I cannot apply CNC technology. Two of my shop Kapex are equipped with Tiger Stops which accept data from computer central to increase accuracy and avoid walking back and forth setting flag stops.

Since I was a child first learning woodworking in the late 1930s I have always use a sharp marking knife. The only marking I ever do with a pencil is perhaps to outline the knife mark and/or to indicate which is the off-cut side or the orientation of the part following cutting.
 
Yes, definitely use the same tape measure.  Past that there are a couple of rules I have.

We have several saws and machining centers with CNC positioners.  I trust those way more than my eyes.  They are accurate to 1/10 of 1 millimeter.  Even on my best day I can't see that well.  In the shop I rely heavily on those (tigerstop, sliding Table saw with CNC fence, CNC router etc.)

In the field it's a different story.  One thing I can say is I don't use my tape at all if I don't have to.  For example, if I'm running crown on a kitchen I always have someone else help me hold the joint together on one end while I mark the length directly onto the molding of the cut I need on the cabinets.  This is by far the best way to deal with variations that occur in the field.  I don't use a tape unless I can't figure out a way to mark the stock directly.

For other things (like counter tops) I almost always make a template.  Especially if it's between walls.  Again I avoid trying to read a tape measure if possible.

All that being said, there is no substitute for doing something everyday.  After 15 years, I think I'm might actually be getting good at running moldings etc [big grin].

Good luck,

Ted
 
Chris,
First Id like to say you aient alone brother…

I use the nibble approach. But since I got the apex Ive been using the heck outta the laser, measuring and marking the piece then lay the piece on the apex , then measuring again making sure the the mark and the tape are correct.
Then cut.

Story sticks are actually very accurate. Most of the old carps lived by them.

Ive been using a folding rule lately.

You might want to get a flat lieing tape measure.

Besure you dont drop or otherwise abuse your tape either.

That can lead to inaccurate measurements
 
Ted, you are a man after my own heart!

My firm does not now, have we ever, fabricated counter tops. My building is surrounded by counter top vendors of all varieties. Heh, I took the first Festool Solid Surface Fabrication class at a point when I was considering renting time on my CNC routers to solid surface folks.

Long ago, when interior surveying was still mostly used on huge commercial projects, I adapted that approach to interior finishing.

My shop is dedicated to custom cabinets, but we make them using the best CNC equipment available. I know that if I cut a prototype using CNC machines, as does Ted, that if the parts do not fit correctly it is because somewhere in the instructions there is a mistake. Those CNC machines can only make the same part number the same way even if months have passed since the last time the part was needed. Oh, Yes, custom cabinets are generally designed around existing modules. Sure, we can and do make drawers, but even those follow stock drawer boxes made by several very good firms who have supplied me for decades.

When we book a job, the client provides us a tentative install date at least 6 weeks in the future. They provide their working drawings of the job as well as plans from the architect. Before making a quote we convert all that data to our Plan-It system, noting which measurements need confirmation. Once we get signatures and a down payment, we order or schedule construction of the drawer boxes, any special hardwood lumber and exotic veneers. The selection of drawer hardware informs the design of the cabinets to fit available drawers. All that is plugged into the Plan-It data. Since the size of the drawers is set, we can go ahead and make their fronts as time permits even if all the hardware has not arrived.

Once the drywall or old-style plaster is finished on the site, a team takes our laser surveying system to create "as builts" to 0.10mm From the field that data is transmitted to computer central at my shop. Now all the working drawings and the computer instructions to the CNC machines are tweaked. All the material we need is in place. Ted knows how fast parts can be made from sheet material with a correctly programmed beam saw. Those parts needing significant routing or drilling are made as rapidly on our CNC nested routers.  Doors for cabinets which also have drawers can safely be made in advance, because fudging will happen on other places. Thus the only last minute doors are for cabinets with no drawers. If the walls are closer together than called for in the spec, shelves can be slightly less wide and the client does not care.

Tiger Stop has recently introduced an advance version of Saw Gear, which is their entry to site work. The original required that measurements be entered manually. For the shop we spent a lot for for Tiger Stops which can receive data from a computer. A compromise system is part of the new Saw Gear, so that will accept data from the laser measuring system on site. All of our installers appreciate the accuracy and convenience, since the Kapex with the Saw Gear can be outside with a data receiver plugged in.We know that when pieces of crown, for example, get cut they will not need a return trip to the saw.
 
ccarrolladams said:
Since 1959 I have not hired a cabinet maker or installer who was not comfortable using metric measurements. They make internal communication easier.

As for transferring marks, I am a major believer in story sticks in situations where I cannot apply CNC technology. Two of my shop Kapex are equipped with Tiger Stops which accept data from computer central to increase accuracy and avoid walking back and forth setting flag stops.

Since I was a child first learning woodworking in the late 1930s I have always use a sharp marking knife. The only marking I ever do with a pencil is perhaps to outline the knife mark and/or to indicate which is the off-cut side or the orientation of the part following cutting.

I save most of my mahogany long trim pieces for story sticks and mark directly on them with a marking knife and then write a description of what the measurement is for.

I can get a lot of measurements on a single piece of good mahogany.

Jack
 
sancho57 said:
Chris,
First Id like to say you aient alone brother…

I use the nibble approach. But since I got the apex Ive been using the heck outta the laser, measuring and marking the piece then lay the piece on the apex , then measuring again making sure the the mark and the tape are correct.
Then cut.

Story sticks are actually very accurate. Most of the old carps lived by them.

Ive been using a folding rule lately.

You might want to get a flat lieing tape measure.

Besure you dont drop or otherwise abuse your tape either.

That can lead to inaccurate measurements

I'm definitely going to give the folding rule a try. The Kapex lasers are outstanding but making the cut accurately isn't the main problem. It's the measurement and transfer
 
jacko9 said:
ccarrolladams said:
Since 1959 I have not hired a cabinet maker or installer who was not comfortable using metric measurements. They make internal communication easier.

As for transferring marks, I am a major believer in story sticks in situations where I cannot apply CNC technology. Two of my shop Kapex are equipped with Tiger Stops which accept data from computer central to increase accuracy and avoid walking back and forth setting flag stops.

Since I was a child first learning woodworking in the late 1930s I have always use a sharp marking knife. The only marking I ever do with a pencil is perhaps to outline the knife mark and/or to indicate which is the off-cut side or the orientation of the part following cutting.

I save most of my mahogany long trim pieces for story sticks and mark directly on them with a marking knife and then write a description of what the measurement is for.

I can get a lot of measurements on a single piece of good mahogany.

Jack

Jack, the best part of using mahogany as your story stick is that when that job is done, a few passes with a sander gives you a new story stick!
 
ccarrolladams said:
jacko9 said:
ccarrolladams said:
Since 1959 I have not hired a cabinet maker or installer who was not comfortable using metric measurements. They make internal communication easier.

As for transferring marks, I am a major believer in story sticks in situations where I cannot apply CNC technology. Two of my shop Kapex are equipped with Tiger Stops which accept data from computer central to increase accuracy and avoid walking back and forth setting flag stops.

Since I was a child first learning woodworking in the late 1930s I have always use a sharp marking knife. The only marking I ever do with a pencil is perhaps to outline the knife mark and/or to indicate which is the off-cut side or the orientation of the part following cutting.

I save most of my mahogany long trim pieces for story sticks and mark directly on them with a marking knife and then write a description of what the measurement is for.

I can get a lot of measurements on a single piece of good mahogany.

Jack

Jack, the best part of using mahogany as your story stick is that when that job is done, a few passes with a sander gives you a new story stick!

Yes and best of all, Mahogany is a very stable wood that I don't have to worry about warping.
 
try a fastcap tape measure and put a pencil mark on the tape instead of reading the measurement, its basically a story stick as suggested but it fits in your pocket
i generally mark my tape and write a note next to the mark for common measurements and they are there until the job is finished so you are not constantly re-measuring
not only is it more accurate but it also saves a ton of time
 
I named my blog after this particular problem I had  [blink]  Which means I don't have much to offer  [tongue]
 
As a cabinet installer, I run a great deal of prefinished trim.  The running joke with my kitchen designer is that I can fill a coffee up with the material I have left over.  Margins are small, so ordering an extra stick of painted and glazed crown, light rail, or furniture base can add a great deal of cost to the job.

When I'm runnig trim, I tend to cut pieces a half inch heavy, bring the piece to the cabinet and mark my cut line with a .05 pencil.  Yes, it adds time.  But if I cut one piece wrong, it can take up to four weeks for a replacement, so a few extra minutes, to me, is worth it.

Oh yeah, put some nice soft rock music on while running trim.  It helps you fight the urge to go go go go got to get this done!
Jon

Ccarroladams, some day I'm going on vacation just to visit your shop with a notepad(s).  Three years self employed, and I get inspired hearing about shops like yours.  Just have to keep reminding myself its a marathon, not a sprint.
 
PaulMarcel said:
I named my blog after this particular problem I had  [blink]  Which means I don't have much to offer  [tongue]

Yea....Paul... like you don't have anything to add...Okay maybe this topic...  But if you stop your reviews...we're putting a hit out on you!!! But then we wouldn't learn anything... Okay we would have to start the Occupy movement in Paul's driveway ....till the reviews start again...  or we tapped a keg.

Cheers,
Steve
 
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