Anybody shot waterborne pre-cat varnish?

[Chris Hughes]

I'm getting ready to try a new product to me.  If anybody has used this product recently I'd like to get your input.

 

[tiralie]

Chris
If you haven't already I would post your question on Woodweb's Finishing forum.
Like here there are lots of good folks with a experience and willing to share info to help you out there.
Tim
And sorry I haven't shot any pre-cat varnish yet.
Shot some of W/B (Target) shellac, lacquer and Poly though.

 

[junk731]

I use Target EM2000 Alkyd Varnish all the time, don't know if this is what your thinking of using? Type at me or PM if I can help.

John

 

[Chris Hughes]

I got comp'ed some Zeinith water borne pre-cat when I went in to get the catalyzing agent for the oil based conversion varnish.  I just started using conversion finishes so I'm not even squared away with that product yet.  If the water borne stuff works as well as the oil stuff but without the harsh solvents then I might have jumped coward in the finish dept a long way.

I'll check out that other sight, thanks for heads up.

 

[junk731]

Chris

I've been using the Zenith coloured basecoat and been finishing with Zenith clear top coat. Low odour stuff, good spraying and sanding qualities. Tried spraying it on wood and it looked lifeless, a lot like WB off the shelf of the big box stores. The EM2000 has an amber tone and warms the finish much like oil based conversion varnish.

John

 

[Chris Hughes]

Thanks Junk.  So what you are saying is if I want a traditional look of oil based, go with the alder tint.  How does the clear work for drawer boxes?  That was my original thought.

I am very interested in using the pre-cat instead of paint.

 

[tiralie]

I always use an amber shellac based sanding sealer which gives a nice warm tone to clear W/B finishes that sometimes can have a blue cast.
If you are used to shooting petroleum based products and are switching to W/B you may need to set up your gun differently or even buy a gun that is designed for water based finishes.
There are many complaints from folks with AAA systems who have problems shooting W/B finishes with there regular set up.

Tim

 

[mastercabman]

There are many complaints from folks with AAA systems who have problems shooting W/B finishes with there regular set up.

Tim

AAA ?    Air assisted airless?
I also heard/read problem with spraying W/B with it.
I am also looking into  W/B product.But i  think i need to spend some money on a new system.I was looking at the C.A.T. gravity feed spray gun.Is that ok for WB finishes?

 

[tiralie]

gravity feed spray gun.Is that ok for WB finishes?

Yes, AAA is air assisted airless.
Depending on what you are spraying, how much and how often a gravity feed spray gun is fine.
I have one and use it for spraying W/B shellac based sealer.
Because the gravity feed guns usually only hold small quantities they are not practical for large projects.
CAT systems are getting good ratings, and I would definitely test them (if you can) against Kremlin or similar manufacturers. CAT also makes a gun specifically for W/B.
Because these systems are relatively expensive >$1000USD, you can often test them before buying.

Tim

 

[junk731]

To answer Chris, I don't think you would have any problem with drawers and using the Zenith, you will find if you final sand your wood to 180/220 you will get very little grain raise. For Tim and Master, I use both a Cat gravity gun with the 750ml PPS system or Devilbiss Transtech gun with a pressure pot and have no problem with larger spray ups. I prefer the CAT gun which came as a kit with 3 different needles/tips and cost about $550.00 CDN, 2 years ago. Its sometimes nice to be able to spray 2 types of finish at once. I haven't tried Airless yet, I priced the CAT airless and it was over $2000.00 at the time.

John

 

[mastercabman]

Thank you,I'm going to check on some guns the next time i have a job.Most of my jobs are pretty small,so a gravity cup is usually fine for the size of jobs i do.
I am going to try WB finishes,i have heard that they are getting better and better and the use of the right equipment is always a plus.

 

[tiralie]

Thank you,I'm going to check on some guns the next time i have a job.Most of my jobs are pretty small,so a gravity cup is usually fine for the size of jobs i do.
I am going to try WB finishes,i have heard that they are getting better and better and the use of the right equipment is always a plus.

If you have a chance to attend spray classes I highly recommend taking the Water base/borne class.
ML Campbell sponsors one here (Macfaddens) and it's very good. It's one day class and you get a real good overview of how to set up your equipment and spray ML Campbell WB lacquers, clear and pigmented both pre and post catalyzed.

Tim

 

[gates559]

I dont think you will find any water base product that will hold a candle to solvent base. I spent over a year using water base and got sick of trying to get good results. I tried a lot of different brands. To get a good quality it will cost at least double over an equal solvent base. 

All of the water base has a milky/ hazy look as well as a blue tinge in the right light. Its harder to spray as well. Water base will raise the grain more which means more sanding and time. It also builds slower as you have to spray thinner coats.

I use a Kremlin and spray daily.

 

[tiralie]

I dont think you will find any water base product that will hold a candle to solvent base. I spent over a year using water base and got sick of trying to get good results. I tried a lot of different brands. To get a good quality it will cost at least double over an equal solvent base. 

All of the water base has a milky/ hazy look as well as a blue tinge in the right light. Its harder to spray as well. Water base will raise the grain more which means more sanding and time. It also builds slower as you have to spray thinner coats.

I use a Kremlin and spray daily.

A lot of folks would agree with you.
Apparently 80% of ML Campbell's sales in Ontario are still solvent based.  However the Campbell rep. did however add that his biggest client (commercial door manufacturer) buys about $350K a year of coatings from him and only uses WB.
It's definitely a challenge to apply WB so that the finished product looks anywhere close to a solvent based finish. I can't say that I am 100% happy with my results, and probably never will be. Generally I am blaming myself, I am just too inexperienced to get the results I want, so the course helped me to know what it is I am supposed to achieve.

You are definitely spraying a lot more than I have or ever will.

I am curious about the results you got when you did use WB. When you say you never got good results what do you mean, did it not level out as well, dry as fast etc.?

It looks like the newer "compliant" guns are designed to reduce shearing (alter viscosity) and if used with the properly formulated coating (balance of anti sag and good leveling) can create a final finish that is less likely to sag but levels out better.

Tim

 

[gates559]

One of the biggest things, I don't like is the cost. Next  is the extra work, more coats, more sanding.  The cloudiness and the blue appearance are the bad results. Its also harder to get a nice waxy feeling off the gun with WB

Big companies use water base because it meets clients expectations of being green and they no doubt get a tax brake for it as well.

I never had any problems with water base laying flat, The Kremlin takes care of that! It did take some time to get used to it sagging so easily.

When I first started using WB I had a lot of troubles but as I learned more they went away, Mostly caused by thinning with water instead of proper thinner.

I was forced to use WB for over a year due to my shop arrangement, the second that changed I switched back to solvent and am loving it.

What part about your finish are you not happy with?

 

[gates559]

Chris,

What brand is the pre cat CV you are referring to. I was just talking with my coatings supplier and he said they have a new WB conversion varnish he wants me to try. Supposedly a new formula with a low cost and good clarity with an amazing build. We will see I guess.

 

[junk731]

Chris,

What brand is the pre cat CV you are referring to. I was just talking with my coatings supplier and he said they have a new WB conversion varnish he wants me to try. Supposedly a new formula with a low cost and good clarity with an amazing build. We will see I guess.

Gates

If you don't mind sharing, who is the supplier/manufacturer? I'm always willing to try a product that works good and can save some money.

John

 

[gates559]

John,

To be honest, I dont know yet. They just said they had tried some and it was on order, they wanted to drop some off when their shipment came in.  I presume it is Chemcraft. I had other things on my mind so I didn't get all the info except it is available in pre cat as well as post and it has a separate sealer which I like a lot better than self seal.

 

[tiralie]

What part about your finish are you not happy with?

As you described it trying to get that "waxy" feeling. I may have to cave and get a AAA sooner than I had planned.
Although John (Junk) swears I can't get the finish I want  because I need a pressure pot.
Tim

 

[Curt B]

I spray about 5 gal a week of SW Kem Aqua plus.  I use is for all my tinted jobs as well as my natural stained work.  I obtain the solvent look by using all solvent based stains and oils mainly BLO, and then two nice coats os Zinsser Seal coat to use as a barrier before I top coat with the clear WB.  The reason I switched from Conversion varishes and pre and post cat lacquers was a new shop , different insurance, and fire marshall wouldn't sign off on solvent products... I made the switch 2 years ago, and havn't looked back.  I had to switch all my preasure tanks over, new fluid lines, all new stainless SATA guns, and updated compressor to handle all the hurdles that come with switch, but in my opion it is well worth it.  I have done my own durablity tests, and suprisingly it is very close to even my older conversions.  As far as looks go...  As long as you don't spray both types of finish on the same piece it is un noticeable.  I think WB finishes are the wave of the future so we might as well except it as a reality.