Anyone using a distance measuring laser???

It's been my sense that the basic measuring technology of these devices has pretty much standardized in the past few years.  You will get about the same accuracy and precision from a $100 unit as from a more expensive one.  For distances greater than about 5 or 6 feet (a couple of meters) all of them are more reliable than a tape because they don't sag, stretch, or have a hook that can get bent.  They are also much faster than a tape, and the only sane way to go solo.  I've been quite happy using one for crown and similar moldings, as I usually make them a shade long and spring them into place.

There are differences that you might want to consider, many of which go with higher price:

- range: more expensive units often have significantly greater working range.  This could mean a lot if you will use it outdoors for large distances such as laying out an entire house.  It probably doesn't matter on room-size measurements indoors.
- aiming/leveling: some have sighting marks and/or bubble levels so that when you shoot the distance between walls you know you didn't measure a slant - though, unless the walls are significantly out of plumb, this usually doesn't affect the accuracy of the measurement by much.
- reference points: basic units typically measure only from the front or the back of the assembly, which doesn't work well if you need to get into a corner.  fancier ones have more selectable reference points.
- units:  If you care about fractional inches or decimal inches, check the specs.  Not all lasers do both.
- memories: cheaper units tend to have fewer memories to save measurements.  Of course, none have annotation, so if you use the memory you have to remember which part of the room was stored in memory #4!
- modes: many will solve a right triangle to make "indirect" measurements.  Some will calculate area or volume based on measurements of the sides.
- build quality and ergonomics:  I haven't seen one from any name brand that was junk, though, as usual, you can find some really cheap and not worth that much ones on eBay.  I've been happy with the Bosch, but some people complain that they don't like the push-to-measure feel.

Steve
 
I would echo what Steve says. I've got a Hilti I bought in the Depot in the US about 3  years ago.  I use it instead of a tape for moldings etc.
Richard
 
For all,
Are these units _predictably_ inaccurate? Meaning, if it is accurate +- a mm or a 1/16, if it reads long by a will it _always_ read long so as to be able to "mentally compensate"?

I use mine for final cuts with crown, base, etc.  The trick, mentioned above, is to calibrate a tape measure to your laser.  This can be accomplished by slightly bending the clip.  I use one of the FastCap flatbacks, and keep it at my cutting station. 
 
I have the Stabila LD 400   and mine is out by only 1mm regardless the distance which is fine with me I always know that the messurment it reads on the screen is always 1mm short adding 1mm to a number is easy to do and its consistent so I know I can trust it.  

It has a few other features. One of the features allows you to measure the height of something indirectly.  It uses a triangle method to be fair its rubbish! Its very inconsistent it will vary about 20mm or more.  I dont use that feature for obvious reasons and I dont think any other laser avaliable on the market can do a better job with that type of feature to be honest. As it requires you to be DEAD still and to point the laser accurately in both corners with out moving but also point the laser infront of you as square as possible which is not possible. So I dont blame the Stabila. I blame the feature.

I paid £60 for mine brand new only because Rexy did me a mint deal normal price is about £140

Milwaukee do one one but its the Stabila LD400 but in RED and with Milwaukee printed on it and costs more so pointless really.

I own the Lacia Laser Level and its good!  I think Lacia is a good brand so I would assume their Laser measure will be very good.  they do one with a Camera so you can ZOOM in to what your aiming at on the screen and it connect to a laptop so you can transfer all the measurements pretty cool but ALOT of money!!!

JMB
 
harry_ said:
WarnerConstCo. said:
I use the 100.00 bosch one for doing crown by myself.

Has not failed me yet.

Darcy,
Is it really accurate enough for final cuts on crown? Or do you use it for 'blank' cutting then fit for a final cut?

For all,
Are these units _predictably_ inaccurate? Meaning, if it is accurate +- a mm or a 1/16, if it reads long by a will it _always_ read long so as to be able to "mentally compensate"?

The only time it was off was because I measured from the wrong side of the unit. [doh]

Other then that, all pieces were the perfect length for a nice tight snap fit.  All were lengths over 14'.
 
harry_ said:
WarnerConstCo. said:
I use the 100.00 bosch one for doing crown by myself.

Has not failed me yet.

Darcy,
Is it really accurate enough for final cuts on crown? Or do you use it for 'blank' cutting then fit for a final cut?

For all,
Are these units _predictably_ inaccurate? Meaning, if it is accurate +- a mm or a 1/16, if it reads long by a will it _always_ read long so as to be able to "mentally compensate"?

Mine always reads 1mm short regardless how long the measurement is so its simple maths just add 1mm to the number it shows on the screen!  What I wish they had as a feature is a +/- 3 mm so you can set it into the laser to add 1 mm automatically basically have a calibration feature so you can set it up perfectly.

JMB
 
All,

Just some comments on some general statements made here about laser measurement devices..

Laser Measuring Devices (LMD) DO deviate over temperature and moisture conditions of air and this DOES affect smaller distances as well..
I'm saying here, it may not affect a single measured value, but if you measure and compare several values within a few minutes on the same distance (tripod mounted) you will be amazed how different the values are. There is always a span of variation in the values, and this is why the high-priced devices do have a certified accuracy of within +/- 1mm @ 20 degree Celsius..
...
There are also some optical factors, which get in the equation, when measuring with lasers.. specially when used outdoors... the main problem here is the observation of the beam spot at a distinct distance in ambient light.. Most devices offer to use special targets which a second person has to hold to observe the spot.. but this requires a second person - which is not always possible (for e.g. if you measure a building size, length of a roof from the ground..)
Here the optical viewfinders are very helpful, as they allow you to see the point within the range of the Unit.
...
For all which already have a laser device, try to measure the same distance outdoors (15m/50ft) at different Temperatures - record and verify the deviation - and get a feeling what i mean..
It's not about the absolute value.. it's the deviation which i'm really concerned..
I owned the Blue Bosch DL50 recently, which claimed to have an accuracy of +/- 1,5mm up to 50m.. but my own measurement and comparison to a Leica/Hilti devices showed  to 3-4mm on distances up to 10m..
Ok, it went to ebay.. and now i have this Leica D5... btw Bosch now has the DLE70, which is an improved version..
...
What i'm trying to say here is.. dont think LMD's are absolutely accurate - if you buy cheap, you always get cheap - depending on your application, real work with high accuracy, or just convenience cause your tired wasting time with your tape measure.. you should consider to invest a significant amount of money to get a good device, which lasts for a lifetime (unless you drop it more than 3 feet..)
Additonally.. Professional devices contain Auto temperature calibration technolgy which keep them accurate over time - they dont tell you on the package about, but you can read in the specs how good they are..

Just my 2 cents..

Kind regards, Mike

p.s. Here is a translated german page reporting about a test of several LMD's which is pretty up to date:
German Test of  Laser Measurement Devices

p.p.s Dont blame me for the translation.. it's google magic [big grin]
 
jmbfestool said:
It has a few other features. One of the features allows you to measure the height of something indirectly.  It uses a triangle method to be fair its rubbish! Its very inconsistent it will vary about 20mm or more.  I dont use that feature for obvious reasons and I dont think any other laser avaliable on the market can do a better job with that type of feature to be honest. As it requires you to be DEAD still and to point the laser accurately in both corners with out moving but also point the laser infront of you as square as possible which is not possible. So I dont blame the Stabila. I blame the feature.

Have you tried this feature from a tripod, because i used this feature on my D5 quite a few times with a tripod.. and it worked exactly ..  but i agree - without a tripod your lost..

kind regards, Mike
 
Michael_MA said:
jmbfestool said:
It has a few other features. One of the features allows you to measure the height of something indirectly.  It uses a triangle method to be fair its rubbish! Its very inconsistent it will vary about 20mm or more.  I dont use that feature for obvious reasons and I dont think any other laser avaliable on the market can do a better job with that type of feature to be honest. As it requires you to be DEAD still and to point the laser accurately in both corners with out moving but also point the laser infront of you as square as possible which is not possible. So I dont blame the Stabila. I blame the feature.

Have you tried this feature from a tripod, because i used this feature on my D5 quite a few times with a tripod.. and it worked exactly ..  but i agree - without a tripod your lost..

kind regards, Mike

No I didn't I did assume with a tripod it would be better. As the harder I tried to keep it steady the more I was shaking lol. The thing is if your going to get the laser out and then a tripod you might as well walk up to the wall and measure it directly. Another reason the feature is useless is because if the wall is bowed in the middle from top to bottom or is out of level a lot it affects the measurement as well as if you had a door or window which is obviously set back from the wall which gives you the wrong measurement.

About the temp I only use mine indoors and most houses or pretty much same temp so I don't av a problem. Well mine has never changed from when I bought it it has always been 1mm I know this because I always check my laser before using it on every job I would quickly measure a wall distance and then use my tape measure to check to see if it's still okay unless my tape measure is affected by temp at the same time well then their is no hope.

Jmb
 
No I didn't I did assume with a tripod it would be better. As the harder I tried to keep it steady the more I was shaking lol. The thing is if your going to get the laser out and then a tripod you might as well wall up to the wall and measure it directly. Another reason the feature is useless is because if the wall is bowed in the middle from top to bottom or is out of level a lot it affects the measurement as well as if you had a door or window which is obviously set back from the wall which gives you the wrong measurement.

About the temp I only use mine indoors and most houses or pretty much same temp so I don't av a problem. Well mine has never changed from when I bought it it has always been 1mm I know this because I always check my laser before using it on every job I would quickly measure a wall distance and then use my tape measure to check to see if it's still okay unless my tape measure is affected by temp at the same time well then their is no hope.

Jmb

I agree.  I've never fully trusted the "indirect" mode.  It seems to have too many assumptions built in, even after you eliminate shake by means of a tripod.  The math works only for a right triangle, but are you really going to check that everything is level and plumb or square first?  And what do you do if they aren't?  It assumes that you measure to a spot directly above where you measured the baseline, else you have measured some diagonal line not the height.  OK for a rough cut, but I wouldn't use it for anything crucial.

I also work indoors, so I wonder how much the temp variations matter.  Anyone have any info on % error per degree change?  I don't know whether the key factor is the change in refraction of the air or the drift of the electronics...
 
There are simply NO assumptions in here if you measure the height of a building from a distance, when you can't get close..
because it's a complete mathematical function, which is as precise as the values you put into..
here is a video from Leica Geosystems to see where this function comes from and how precise it actually is.. (at 2:00 the function is shown..)
Indirect height measurement with Leica Unit

So, it's simply a mathematical function based on measuring the tilt angle AND the distance to the various points. Unless you have a unit with internal tilt angle measurement and put this unit on a tripod, you will not obtain excact values.
There are loads of other features built in the newer devices, which one may not imagine or consider useless unless shown and understood..
Here is Demo video of the leica D8 - called "The flagship"
The New Leica Disto D8 - The Flagship !

It may be considered  as an example of what professional handheld devices are capable of today.

kind regards, Mike

 
To give you the full picture about accuracy.. here are the specs of a typical Laser Measurement device.

Watch closely the exact specification of the initial tolerance (+/-1.5mm) and the comments made below with the (*) and the (**)  :)
Lets assume.. we have a distance of 30m and 30degree Celsius.. and Concrete as the reflecting surface..

So, you may end  up of having a variation of
   1,5mm                 (1,5mm initial tolerance)  
+ 4,5mm              (30 x 0,15   (0,15/m from **)  
+ 6 mm                 and this is not compensating for surface conditions and  temperature change, as the temp slope is unknown..
                               so if you have more than 20 degree Celsius and have a surface not reflecting perfectly, you may have to add another
+ 0,5 - 0,8mm        at least to the tolerance... which then sums up to
6,8 mm for 30m..

What i'm trying to stress here is the most important thing - dont rely on those units blindly by taking only one measurement on critical distances.

kind regards, Mike

Edit: Copy and paste error corrected.
 
Has anyone tried this Leica:
Leica DISTO D210XT Laser Distancemeter Rangefinder
http://www.opticsplanet.net/leica-disto-d210xt-laser-distancemeter-rangefinder.html
It looks like a heavier duty model of the D2-D3 models:

Specifications for Leica DISTO D210XT Laser Distance-meter Range-finder:
Typical measuring accuracy: ± 1,5 mm
Range: 0,05-70 m
Measuring units: 0,000 m, 0'0" 1 ⁄ 8, 0 in 1 ⁄ 8, 0'00" 1 ⁄ 16, 0 in 1 ⁄ 16, 0,00 ft
Recall last values: 10
Display illumination: Yes
Measurements per set of batteries: up to 5000
Protection class: IP65; dust-proof and jet water protected
Multifunctional end-piece: automatically
Batteries: 2×AAA (Included)
Dimensions: 122×55×28 mm
Weight with batteries: 159 g
 

Features of Leica DISTO D210XT Laser Distance meter Range finder:
Dust-proof and jet water protected IP65
Robust
Multifunctional end-piece
Diverse range of Functionality
Sealed keypad - For measurements in extremely dusty environments. Easy to clean under running water.
Solid rubber housing - Endures drop tests from 2 m height.
Hard-wearing, illuminated display - Measured values can be read, even in the dark.
Flip-out end-piece with automatic detection - Reliable, trouble free and error free measurement from edges or out of corners.
Minimum and maximum measurement function - Horizontal and diagonal measurements, e.g. in corners.
Room dimensions - Values such as circumference, wall area, floor or ceiling area are displayed at the touch of a button.
Continuous measurement - Simple and quick staking out.

Is this a newer model? It is a little cheaper than the D2 and seems to have some significant advantages in terms of sturdiness.
 
The DXT 210 definitly a more robust model of the D2 model for the American/Canadian market.
The D3 is a more professional grade device, as it has the reduced tolerance  of +/-1mm (better temp control) and works up to 100m,
whereas the D2 / DXT works upt to 70m with +/- 1.5mm tolerance.

I had the DXT in my hands. It was around 210 Euro, which is very reasonable.

It cand stand a drop from 2m, and has IP65  dust and water proof - runs up to 70m (210ft)
here is short demostration of its robustness:

LEICA DXT - tough enough
But to be honest, a D2 would do it for basic use, it's robust enough, if you handle your equipment with some basic care..
and the D2 is 138 Euro over here - a real bargain.

p.s. Just checked on Amazon, the D2 is 179 $, whereas the DXT 210 is 219 $, the D3 is 299 $ there..

kind regards, Mike
 
You said it Michael!   GIGO!!!   Garbage in Garbage out!   The maths always works obviously as its a computer!  The thing like mentioned with the cheaper ones like my Stabila D400 and many others they have not got angle finder built in so der is no way of knowing you have your laser at the right angle unless you use a tripod but you till need to find out if your at 90 degree! If you not at the right angle your putting Garbage information in!    If the wall is out of level so leans away from out at the top or the middle is bowed it aint square to your laser so the maths still work but  you have but  Garbage in!     So you always end up with Garbage out!  

GIGO!

 
jmbfestool said:
You said it Michael!  GIGO!!!  Garbage in Garbage out!  The maths always works obviously as its a computer!  The thing like mentioned with the cheaper ones like my Stabila D400 and many others they have not got angle finder built in so der is no way of knowing you have your laser at the right angle unless you use a tripod but you till need to find out if your at 90 degree! If you not at the right angle your putting Garbage information in!    If the wall is out of level so leans away from out at the top or the middle is bowed it aint square to your laser so the maths still work but  you have but  Garbage in!    So you always end up with Garbage out! 

GIGO!

That's exactly what I meant about assumptions.  The math, the measurements, and the calculations can all be perfect, but to apply them one assumes the world matches their conditions.  As jmb says, that isn't always so!
 
Interesting that the site I linked to above has the D210XT for less than the D2.

I was thinking the D210XT might work for my non professional needs.
 
MacMitch said:
Interesting that the site I linked to above has the D210XT for less than the D2.

I was thinking the D210XT might work for my non professional needs.

That' funny, cause Amazon is not always cheap..
Here is the link i found there:
Leica Disto Units on Amazon.com

But it's may be worth to consider buying the D3 on Amazon (279 $) instead of the DXT (219 $)

What do you get for the additional 60 bucks:
- built in Tilt sensor +/-45 degree, therefor more unique measurement options
  can very precisely be used to measure an angle or slope of a surface with 0,3 degree accuracy
- 1mm accuracy instead of 1,5mm (better temp control over live time)
- Extended range of 100m
- Internal memory for 20 values.

Trade off vs the DXT:
- has "only" IP54 Dust and Water proof (withstands Dust and Water from all directions)
- cannot be used under Water [grin]
- cannot be used as replacement for a baseball [biggrin]

kind regards, Mike

 
I have the Leica Disto D3 and I love it.It is accurate,has all the bells and whistles a residential builder needs especially for interior work and is small enough to slide in my tool pouch and forget about until I need it.I love the tilt readout for using on stairs etc.The chain measurement function that allows you to add measurements in a running tally works great for measuring up things like trim to get you to an accurate final number. If I had to replace it I would buy the same one over again.
 
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