Beginner considering a bookshelf project - Need advice

[Stone Message]

Hi JMB

You are right - professionals should not make that mistake. I was in a town library (somewhere in Devon I think) last year and they had a small section closed because of sagging shelves. So it was worth pointing out to our friend who started this post who needs some help and guidance.

Peter

 

[Kodi Crescent]

I appreciate the reminder about sagging.  The spans for the audio equipment will only be about 24", and the spans for the books will be between 28" - 33".  The shelves will receive some frame-type edging which will strengthen them further.  Sagging shouldn't be a problem.

 

[RC]

Wouldn't like to think a professional would make that mistake unless the client has specific specifications or a very unusual design which they haven't done before. But as standard shelves and tables etc goes a professional should not be making that mistake.  

I have yet to find a single professionally designed and made bookshelf by the likes of Ikea, Lundia, etc. that would take a full shelf full of books without sagging after a while. The only kind of bookshelf that I've found not to sag is the box-module type of bookshelves like this.

Even expensive shelves like Lundia ones. Sag under full book load and don't stand a chance in storage rooms. I actually managed to break a 1500mm shelf when I stacked it full of 400mm x 400mm x 10mm granite tiles (which in retrospect was maybe pushing it a bit)  [tongue]

I had about 12 metres of Lundia shelves in my library and every shelf >1m long sagged after 5 years of use under hard cover books. Now I've substituted a third of them with the Boknäs modules and am happy with them, but since they are extremely expensive it will take a while to replace all. Even shortly considered to craft my own, but don't trust myself to be able to reverse engineer them well enough to stand next to the real deal  [embarassed]

 

[mouppe]

In Chippendale's Cabinet maker directory, his bookshelves were about 30" wide. Books in the 18th century were much larger and heavier though. If you want longer shelves, make them thicker, although this doesn't look as elegant. I think 5/8" is a good thickness for bookshelves unless the case is really small.

How deep will your bookcases be? I'd make them out of pine over plywood as you can dispense with all the edge banding hassle and you can probably find pine wide enough to make all the components out of single planks. You can also thickness the shelves down a little to break up the monotonous look of having everything from 3/4" sheet goods. It also weighs a lot less and planks are easier to carry than sheet goods which is something to consider if you have to shlep everything into an attic. I would still use plywood for the back though. 1/4" would be fine. Pine is nice to work, easy to paint, not too bad to stain, smells good and is cheap. After a few years, it will still look good and you can easily renovate it or repair it.

Does your attic have a baseboard. You have to think about how the bookcases will go against the wall if so. Cut the baseboard or notch the bookcases? Also don't forget to attach the bookcases to the wall somehow. I use discreet angle brackets at the top of the bookcases. You don't want your kids climbing up the bookcase to get something and pulling the whole thing down on themselves.

 

[peter halle]

If you are doing face frame cabinets I don't think that you will have any issues with having your bottoms and tops inside the sides or outside.  I personally usually have the tops and bottoms extend over and under the sides.  I know you said that you didn't want to use screws, but if you use pocket screws along with dominos you can avoid clamps in many situations and the screws can be hidden with careful planning.

If you choose to place the tops and bottoms inside the sides you have the benefit of being able to set a stop and cut the tops, bottoms and shelves all at the same time.

Just some thoughts.

Peter

 

[jmbfestool]

Wouldn't like to think a professional would make that mistake unless the client has specific specifications or a very unusual design which they haven't done before. But as standard shelves and tables etc goes a professional should not be making that mistake.  

I have yet to find a single professionally designed and made bookshelf by the likes of Ikea, Lundia, etc. that would take a full shelf full of books without sagging after a while. The only kind of bookshelf that I've found not to sag is the box-module type of bookshelves like this.

Even expensive shelves like Lundia ones. Sag under full book load and don't stand a chance in storage rooms. I actually managed to break a 1500mm shelf when I stacked it full of 400mm x 400mm x 10mm granite tiles (which in retrospect was maybe pushing it a bit)  [tongue]

I had about 12 metres of Lundia shelves in my library and every shelf >1m long sagged after 5 years of use under hard cover books. Now I've substituted a third of them with the Boknäs modules and am happy with them, but since they are extremely expensive it will take a while to replace all. Even shortly considered to craft my own, but don't trust myself to be able to reverse engineer them well enough to stand next to the real deal  [embarassed]

... your saying ikea and places like that are professionals who designed them?    I thought they where office workers who want make a lot of money and are professionals in that sense but not in trade.

JMB

 

[RC]

Well, I presume they have to have professional designers with capability to run the calculus in their design CADs when preparing a design for mass production. I highly doubt that half of the can use a router and not maim themselves. So yes and no.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

In Chippendale's Cabinet maker directory, his bookshelves were about 30" wide. Books in the 18th century were much larger and heavier though. If you want longer shelves, make them thicker, although this doesn't look as elegant. I think 5/8" is a good thickness for bookshelves unless the case is really small.

How deep will your bookcases be? I'd make them out of pine over plywood as you can dispense with all the edge banding hassle and you can probably find pine wide enough to make all the components out of single planks. You can also thickness the shelves down a little to break up the monotonous look of having everything from 3/4" sheet goods. It also weighs a lot less and planks are easier to carry than sheet goods which is something to consider if you have to shlep everything into an attic. I would still use plywood for the back though. 1/4" would be fine. Pine is nice to work, easy to paint, not too bad to stain, smells good and is cheap. After a few years, it will still look good and you can easily renovate it or repair it.

Does your attic have a baseboard. You have to think about how the bookcases will go against the wall if so. Cut the baseboard or notch the bookcases? Also don't forget to attach the bookcases to the wall somehow. I use discreet angle brackets at the top of the bookcases. You don't want your kids climbing up the bookcase to get something and pulling the whole thing down on themselves.

My attic does have a baseboard.  I'm not quite sure how I'll handle the baseboard yet.  If I can run it continuously on the bottom, I may.  Otherwise, I may build up some column details where the cases meet some vertical supporting framing members.

I'm still in the process of clearing out and preparing the "hole" where these will sit.  I should have all the wiring re-routed by the end of the day today. 

I don't think I specified before, but this is going into a wall, and not sitting in front of it.  When the builder finished my attic they dropped walls under the roof joist spans to come to the 54" minimum ceiling height needed for the legal definition of "living space".  There is plenty of space behind this in the attic scuttle way, so this is where the cabinetry will go.

Since this is going into an unconditioned space, I figured that I'd use 3/4" for all sides, including the back.  I planned on sealing the back side too to try to minimize any odd wood behavior during the very humid NC summers.

Thanks for the recommendation to attach these to the wall.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

If you are doing face frame cabinets I don't think that you will have any issues with having your bottoms and tops inside the sides or outside.  I personally usually have the tops and bottoms extend over and under the sides.  I know you said that you didn't want to use screws, but if you use pocket screws along with dominos you can avoid clamps in many situations and the screws can be hidden with careful planning.

If you choose to place the tops and bottoms inside the sides you have the benefit of being able to set a stop and cut the tops, bottoms and shelves all at the same time.

Just some thoughts.

Peter

I'm going to sandwich the sides between the top and bottom.  I don't have any clamps other than those Irwin quick clamps and Festool clamps, so it's time to take the pain and buy some woodworking-type clamps.  It was painful, but I winced and bought Festool, so I can probably wince and take the pain of buying some decent clamps for this.  [smile]

I have other similar projects in the future, so I won't cheap out on them and use some non-standard construction method to save some pennies.

As I tell my wife, this first project is going to be the real budget kicker.  All future projects will be primarily materials and finishing now that I have the tools.

 

[Stone Message]

Kodi you are so right - you have to speculate to accumulate and as long as you keep going with your woodwork you will reap the benefits of your tool purchases. At every stage in my life I have bought new tools and loved them but now that I have got the Festool bug I really regret not going for the brand a lot earlier. I wrote to my editor today and told him that since getting mostly Festool tools my work has become more fun, I am doing things more accurately and in less time. My wife has always been a great supporter and she appreciates the advantages of my (various) Festool purchases. The only trouble is I keep getting requests to make more furniture and things for the house.

Peter

 

[semenza]

Kodi,

You are going to want some clamps at some point, but regardless of using them for something on this project or not..... I highly recommend using Dominos and pocket screws to assemble the boxes / carcass. I have found it to be much easier than clamping boxes together, and dados/rabbets have just become a pain compared to Dominos trying to hold parts together while getting clamps on.  If something really needs clamping I still clamp, but for cabinet type boxes it is hard to beat Dominos and pocket screws especially when working alone.

If you put the tops / bottoms between the sides the pocket screws on the outside of the cabinet , they are automatically hidden. The bottom ones are between the floor and the cabinet. The top ones are covered by whatever is above the cabinet , in your case (I think) the ceiling.

Seth

 

[Kodi Crescent]

Kodi,

You are going to want some clamps at some point, but regardless of using them for something on this project or not..... I highly recommend using Dominos and pocket screws to assemble the boxes / carcass. I have found it to be much easier than clamping boxes together, and dados/rabbets have just become a pain compared to Dominos trying to hold parts together while getting clamps on.  If something really needs clamping I still clamp, but for cabinet type boxes it is hard to beat Dominos and pocket screws especially when working alone.

If you put the tops / bottoms between the sides the pocket screws on the outside of the cabinet , they are automatically hidden. The bottom ones are between the floor and the cabinet. The top ones are covered by whatever is above the cabinet , in your case (I think) the ceiling.

Seth

My sides will be sandwiched between the top and the bottom.  I must be missing something regarding the pocket screws.  I don't know anything about them.  From what I've seen they go in at an angle.

Wouldn't I screw through the joint portion of where I'm domino'ing at?  If they go in at an angle, I'm not sure what they'd attach to.  If they screw in through the bottom into the sides, how do they differ from just drilling a small pilot hole and using some other type of screw?

I'm not sure how they are better than how some screw through a butt joint with drywall screws.  Please enlighten me.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

Kodi you are so right - you have to speculate to accumulate and as long as you keep going with your woodwork you will reap the benefits of your tool purchases. At every stage in my life I have bought new tools and loved them but now that I have got the Festool bug I really regret not going for the brand a lot earlier. I wrote to my editor today and told him that since getting mostly Festool tools my work has become more fun, I am doing things more accurately and in less time. My wife has always been a great supporter and she appreciates the advantages of my (various) Festool purchases. The only trouble is I keep getting requests to make more furniture and things for the house.

Peter

After using the Festool stuff I've begun to adopt a more "European" philosophy towards consumerism.  Instead of shopping for "stuff" just to have stuff, and then turning it over due to breakage or obsolescence, I'll pay the extra to buy something of high quality that will last for a long long time.  I may get less, but at least I won't have to replace it a handful of years down the road.

Festool broke me of being cheap.

 

[peter halle]

Kodi,

There a ton of Kreg videos out there.  At the end of this post is one of which system I use the most.  I have three complete setups, but this one which cost less than $50 (but you need to have or buy a clamp) works well even in a test situation.  One of the situations that can come into play with the Kreg system is a slight bit of creep when tightening the screws.  The dominos help to prevent this.  The screws act as the clamps when tightened.

In a shelving situation like what you are talking about the screws in the Kreg system are not going into end grain like a butt joint and they can be hidden on the bottom side of the bottom and the top side of the top.  

Here is a link.:  Kreg Junior

Peter

 

[Kodi Crescent]

Okay, I'll get some of these.  I see how you use them to put the carcasses together and not be visible.

 

[tjbnwi]

If Kreg was still in NC you could have spent a day with him learning the process.

If you want to make a pilgrimage to Atlanta to see the "King" he teaches a built-in fabrication class at Highland Hardware.

Tom

 

[Kodi Crescent]

I've watched some of the videos for the pocket screws.  It looks like a pretty smart joiner solution.  But I thought the Domino was the "game changer".  The pocket screws have been out long before the Domino.

Does this reduce your need for the Domino?  I have one.  I've watched plenty of those videos on that, and it seems that the pocket screws make the Domino less useful or less necessary.  Are some of you only using the Domino in places where the pocket screw holes can't be hidden?

Am I missing something?

 

[Scott B.]

I've watched some of the videos for the pocket screws.  It looks like a pretty smart joiner solution.  But I thought the Domino was the "game changer".  The pocket screws have been out long before the Domino.

Does this reduce your need for the Domino?  I have one.  I've watched plenty of those videos on that, and it seems that the pocket screws make the Domino less useful or less necessary.  Are some of you only using the Domino in places where the pocket screw holes can't be hidden?

Am I missing something?

I've been meaning to post my builtins (from my own house) from a few years ago. I don't go much over about 32" in shelf length, and with square stock front banded 3/4", never had a sag, and I have more books than most.

As to joinery, for face frame to carcass assembly, pocket screws are a great way to draw them in. Even if I had a Domino, I would probably consider it overkill for the faceframe unit installs. Domino in my opinion is for those more structural type woodworking joints.

 

[tjbnwi]

I use Dominos in concert with pocket screws, Dominos alone, pocket screws alone. T&G joints. Clamps, no clamps...............

After you do a few, you will find what works best for the application.

No one jointing process works for each application.

Tom

 

[Scott B.]

I use Dominos in concert with pocket screws, Dominos alone, pocket screws alone. T&G joints. Clamps, no clamps...............

After you do a few, you will find what works best for the application.

No one jointing process works for each application.

Tom

Tom

Do you find dominoes to be a practical faceframe unit assembly (stile to rail) joint?