Best screws for cabinet making..

[MacMitch]

I am interested in hearing opinions on the various types and styles of screws now available, specificallly what people like to use for cabinets and why. I have used a bunch of DedckMate etc. from the Depot for building projects. I have used McFeely's square drive bits for quite a few projects and developed an appreciation for the better screws and screw heads. I bought out a local stores supply of Spax screws when I was offered a great, take em all deal. Most recently I purchased some GRKFasteners . I like the the GRK's a great deal so far but they do seem expensive compared to some of the other higher quality offerings. My early experience suggests that the Torx bits may work even better than the square bits. I was also very surprised when I was at Home Depot the other day to discover that my local store is only stocking DeckMates with Torx/Star heads now.

I am at a cross road with my conversion to Festool drills and seriously considering moving to mostly Torx/Star screws, since they seem to offer as good or better function compared to square. I am trying out the GRK RT and R4 screws now? I am about to start a bunch of cabinets though which will need a different type screw than the construction projects I have been doing over the last few years. I know there are some solid reasons for several options and though I have read a fair number of opinions as to which to use I have not heard much regarding the reasoning behind the opinions. The GRK Torx heads seem to have the best head for not getting torn up or wearing off finishes. The square may have an advantage in terms of staying on a bit once placed there. My impression is the Climatek coating is probably the best "coating" especially in treated wood. I am looking at the GRK RT, Fin/Trim, R4 & RSS for cabinets, PAN for pocket holes maybe.

 

[Sparktrician]

I don't disagree with you that GRK screws are on the spendy side.  Then again, how spendy is it when a cabinet falls off the wall with a customer's best china in it?  I prefer the GRK cabinet screws for mounting the cabinets, largely because, with the large heads, they don't pull through, unlike deck screws that will eventually pull through when overloaded.  For cabinet construction, though, I prefer using dominoes for consistent strength.  In the case of cabinets that I know will be heavily loaded, I prefer to use GRK RSS screws to hang them, again for their superior strength. 

[smile]

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

GRK's.

There is a reason they are more expensive then the rest, seems familiar around these parts huh?

I cuss, moan and holler when I have to use any other kind of screw.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Not to hijack the thread, but has anyone out there ever had a cabinet fall off the wall? 
I'm not a cabinetmaker, but I have abused and overloaded lots of cabinets and never had one come loose...

 

[peter halle]

My home, built 1993, by guys used to doing it the old way, has cabinets installed on the walls with finish nails.

 

[jonny round boy]

I took a kitchen out in a client's home once, to discover the state of the one and only wall cabinet. There had been a leak from the bathroom above many, many years ago, and the chipboard around the wall hangers had completely disintegrated.

The large 1000 wide cabinet was held to the wall with absolutely nothing except the thick bead of silicone that had been put round it to fill the gap to the wall. [eek]

 

[mastercabman]

Not to hijack the thread, but has anyone out there ever had a cabinet fall off the wall?   
I'm not a cabinetmaker, but I have abused and overloaded lots of cabinets and never had one come loose...

YES!!  On my head!!  This was years ago.I had a work order to reset a cabinet that was not centerd with the filler strip on each side.The original installer did not hit the stud(s).When i took the bottom screw,cabinet fell on my head. KNOCKED ME OUT!!  Woke up later(not sure how long i was out),got my tools and went home.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Here is an example of builder's cabinets that are crap.  Held on the wall by 1/4" plywood back that was stapled into the carcass.  I had been warning the homeowners for years not to overload the cabinets while doing other work for them.  I continually noticed the gap at the back getting bigger.  They didn't listen!
I built a new cabinet out of red oak to match the others and used a quality 1/2" plywood back that's pocket screwed and glued into the carcass.  That's been a bullet proof mix for me over the years.  They can load it and hang from it all they want.  I also use either deck screws or Fast Cap's washer head style screws DEEP into the studs and/or blocking.  1/4" ply is not structural enough and can distort.

Just a note:  This was my pre-Festool days and the customer's invented the book support till they were ready to give in and call me.

 

[Pete Pedisich]

Nice Ken! I like to see things built to last.

 

[tjbier]

I agree with the others, GRK's are the best fastener.  They seem to drive in with less effort, I have personally never stripped one out. But have seen it done, lol, but you should have seen the fella doing it.
Yup, pricey but just like Festool, some things are just worth it.
There is another German company called Spaxx, that is sold at Menards here and they are a good substitute, and they are a little cheaper.

 

[RonMiller]

I'm a cabinet-maker and do alot of kitchen installs. Just today I was called to an rental unit where the upper cabinets were coming off the wall from a heavy load of plates in just one of them. The studs were missed and not enough screws were used, but they're up there sturdy now with 3" square drive PowerHeads from FastCap.

 

[flair woodworks]

I like the screws sold as genuine Roberson screws.  The Kreg screws are pretty good to, in the right application.  To the Torx users, can you do this?

 

[MacMitch]

Thanks for the replies, obviously great support for the GRK's.

I notice Sparktrician mentions using RSS screws for hanging cabinets that will be heavily loaded. I think the RSS is designed to be a tougher screw than its smaller relative the Cabinet Screw? I am guessing the Cabinet Screw will handle anything not bordering on the ridiculous, as some mention cabinets hanging from much lesser fasteners. The washer head screws makes sense to me as I have used screws set in washers in the past to attach cabinets to walls.

I am wondering how the GRK Pan head screws work for pocket holes vs Kregs screws designed for pocket holes or McFelly's beefed up pocket hole screw. As I recall McFelly's pocket hole screw has a heavier duty screw head something like the GRK Caliburn. The GRK Pan head looks like it also has a heavy duty but more tapered head, probably more than enough strengthen than needed for Torx/Star bits.

Ahh the last poster prefers square drives. I like them too. The main challenge I had with square drives was the bits seem to show wear and tear, loosing the square shape, at least on the ends, using my Hitachi and Makita impact drivers. Bits are fairly cheap though and the square/Robertson bits do last longer than phillips bits and at least as long as the combo bits. It is nice for the bits to actually hold screws without a magnet. This feature has become an issue for me when using magnetic and some other bit holders, they may leave the bit and sometimes part of the driving system in the screw when trying to remove the drill from the attached screw.

 

[tbellemare]

When I was a youth of about 39 years old, my Mother's upper cabinets came down, slowly, (luckily). They were full of stuff and my Dad was Chemo'd out.

When I got over there, after coming back from a road week at LANL, my Dad had supported the whole thing with a bottle jack and some scraps from his stuff in the garage. My Mom was in tears, but had taken most everything out of the cabinet.

My Dad and I examined the carnage and realized that the, apparently premade, cabinets had held their shape but pulled from the wall after about 15-20 years. They were originally attached with nails. It was all really lucky, actually...

Tom

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I like the screws sold as genuine Roberson screws.  The Kreg screws are pretty good to, in the right application.  To the Torx users, can you do this?

Why would I want to? 

Storage?

 

[Sparktrician]

Thanks for the replies, obviously great support for the GRK's.

I notice Sparktrician mentions using RSS screws for hanging cabinets that will be heavily loaded. I think the RSS is designed to be a tougher screw than its smaller relative the Cabinet Screw? I am guessing the Cabinet Screw will handle anything not bordering on the ridiculous, as some mention cabinets hanging from much lesser fasteners. The washer head screws makes sense to me as I have used screws set in washers in the past to attach cabinets to walls.

If I have even the vaguest suspicion that a customer will overload a wall-hung cabinet creating the potential for failure, I'll use RSS screws.  I've hung closet systems (like California Closets) using RSS screws to mount the rail.  Not one has ever failed.  I tell customers that if they insist on doing chin-ups on them, don't call me when the partitions fail.  [scared]  But that rail will not part from the studs so long as I use the RSS screws.  And yes, the RSS screw IS designed to be a whole bunch tougher than the GRK cabinet screws, but the cabinet screws aren't wussy either. 

[smile]

 

[MacMitch]

Well I want be using nails to hold up any of my cabinets, thats for sure. The RSS screws may even come into play for the heavy loads, or if I decide the RSS is just a better all purpose screw for me, which is quite possible. Although the Cabinet screws might come in handy for holding down HDPE (plastic) on dog kennel frames and table tops.

Is anyone using the FIN/Trim or RT's? I got some RT's for use in composite deck but have not gotten much chance to use them yet due to cold & ice here. Although the Kameleons do have a couple differences in the tread/head design they appear to be designed to function much like the RT's but with color options. I love my Hitachi 15g nail gun but I realize the limitations of the straight brad/nail.

I will probably have R4 and RSS screws on hand for construction jobs. The Top Star is fascinating for door installs, eliminating shims would be very nice. Although I have used quite a few Tapcons type concrete screws I have not found them to be reliable at holding in either cinder block or concrete walls. I got a small container of Caliburns and will be using them to lock down some 6x6 posts on concrete that are next to a new door, so I should at least get an idea of how easy they are to use with my T15 drill.

No one has mentioned using Pan heads either, pocket holes or drawer slides maybe? The threads look to be somewhere between Kreg coarse & fine threads, closer to coarse, which I hear some people use exclusively for pocket holes.

 

[waho6o9]

Nancy Bevacco

FASTENPRO

6001 Burgundy Ave

Alta Loma. CA 91737

909 944 3944

909 989 5177 fax
fastenpro@hotmail.com

I just received my GRKs from Fastenpros.  Quick service and a great product, and they have alot of different GRKs.  Nancy is great to deal with.  Good luck.  [big grin]

 

[fdengel]

I like the screws sold as genuine Roberson screws.  The Kreg screws are pretty good to, in the right application.  To the Torx users, can you do this?

How much weight do you think a joint like that would support?

;D

 

[flair woodworks]

Why would I want to? 

Storage?
[/quote]
Ok, I'll admit the useful applications are limited, but when installing my ceiling, I was able to drive a screw, leave my driver in the screw suspended from the ceiling, get my next screw, position it, then grab my driver and sink the next screw.  And so on.  Yes, I had to be careful letting go of the driver so in fact it would have been slower than putting it back on my belt, but I only had one hand available because the other was holding up the ceiling!