Best Tablesaw for Festoolians

[Forrest Anderson]

...
Also, btw, the CMS is actually NAINAY or NAINAYet. It is winding its way through our tortuous UL approval process.
...

Really?  Where'd you hear this?   When will it be available? 

Christian Oltzscher of Festool has mentioned the Precisio and CMS before, but back in Jan 2007 he didn't seem to think that the CMS would get UL approval...

There is still a chance of the CS50 and CS70 (Precisio) coming to the US. There is no chance that
the CMS will get UL approval. The only exception might be the router table insert.

If you click on the Quote from: Christian O. on 31-01-2007, 16:34:03 link above the blue quote box, then you'll get the whole thread from back then.

Forrest

 

[Eli]

So, on the topic of tablesaws Festool, I used a CS70 for some ripping today. It really drove home that I miss the Dewalt I had. For me, a tablesaw is going to be all about the fence. The Dewalt fence was great, fast, easy to set, easy to use, easy to read measurements. I finished the day kind of pissed off that I had to buy a DeWalt again (I sold it when I moved). Not because I dislike it, just because... I'd been really fooling myself that the CMS was going to do it for me. I have never liked the fence on the CMS, it's even worse than the Precisio fences. It's a bit wonky. The Precisio fences are solid (and are another $400), but nothing like the feeling you get from dialing in a tiny adjustment on the Dewalt fence and flipping the lock down, knowing it's square because of the geared rails. No measuring at the blade, no knocking back and forth with your hand.

Has anyone had an experience with a comparable fence? I've used a giant Biesemeyer on a cabinet saw setup in a big mill shop. I mean a saw I could actually fit in my garage.

Anyway, the way I feel right now I should just bite the bullet and get another Dewalt. I was going to get the CMS for the added utility of the router insert and be able to pack it all up and stow it away.

For all you guys waiting for the Kapex, revel in the fact that the DeWalt saw is $1000 here. ;D

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Eli: which fence are you not happy with?

I hear the included parallel fence is a bit weak for ripping but that the aforementioned #492095 fence should do the trick. It has the micro adjustment and seems to lock securely without wobble. I got home early today so now I am REALLY gonna attach the TS55 module and do some ripping with the new fence - will report back A.S.A.P.

Agree on the DeWalt by the way, it's not bad really, it gets things done but is not impressive in any way other than that the fence is nice. 

 

[Greg B]

Forrest,

Thanks for the reminder. The rep that I spoke to was new and had not, apparently, heard about the difficulties with approving the CMS system. Piffle! It seems very un-American for commerce to be strangled by anything. Particularly, when yurpeen standards for the tool are so high.

GB

 

[Goerge]

Eli,

I'm a bit astounded. I visited my Festool Retailer earlier this day to test the tools I asked about in my other threads, and by chance had my first look at the DeWalt table Saw you mentioned. It surely is a bit sturdier built, but I can't follow your Dissapointment with the fence. While the DeWalt's fence moves smoother than the bosch's (I think you would know the bosch's as 4100), it's nothing compared to the optional fences on the stationary festools in my opinion.

The Festools (Cs50 70 and CMS) all use, as far as I know, the same parallel fence, I'm talking of this one here:
Ripping-cut fence CS 70 LA 488062
To make full use of it you should have the Extension table VB.

Dude, I have to adjust from using full sized pro's machines in a 1200 m? shop - and the festools were the only saws my fingers wouldn't fall off on their own. It's precise, smooth, sturdy (ok the deWalt might take a few more bumps and cuffs) - and the ripping fence is heaven! And believe me, I checked every Table Saw I gained knowledge of...

Did you use the "Angle Stop WA" one, which comes with it, not only as an accessorie? Try again with the other one!

Anyway, I think even a Table Saw without a sliding Table ain't worth no money. If you don't have one, the you'll especially love the drawable saw blade. It's the best thing to have around making precision cuts either in small workpieces or crosscutting in Workpieses to long to handle on the sliding table.

Dude don't do it. Stick with festool  We need your money for our gross national product 

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Yurgeee: yes, that was what I was thinking, the Angle / sliding stop that comes with the CMS as standard seems a bit weak/wobbly for ripping and (in my case) the LA 492095 seemed like just the ticket according to users over here.

The main disadvantage for the CMS over the Precisio CS is that you don't have that nice draw-saw feature, the advantage is multi tasking. 

Then again WYGIWYB (What You Get Is WHat You Buy). 

 

[Eli]

Yup, I've used the parallel fence (did I mention add'l $400 here in OZ), and the angle stop (which I think is not even a fence, being secured only in the middle and not at each end, as a fence should properly be). I was underwhelmed (that means not impressed) with the microadjust feature. It's just not anywhere close to as good a fence as the Dewalt FOR RIPPING.

Maybe I didn't mention that. See, I've got an MFT. I've got rails. I never made a habit of using a sliding panel saw. In my opinion, the tool hole that needs to be filled in my shop is a ripping device for long narrow pieces. Yes, there are methods to do it on the MFT. I don't want to do that. I'd like to be able to walk up to a table saw, adjust it quickly, rip up a bunch of stock, and then go back to what I was doing. If I'm cutting a lot of ply, I'm using rails and the TS55, no question, or the MFT.

The things I like about the Dewalt fence are that the front and back of the fence are on geared rollers. They are always square. There's a quick release, and if I'm remembering it right and not embellishing, a macro and micro knob for adjustment. Open quick release, push the fence into rough position, use the smaller knob to get it really fine (magnifying glass on the built-in tape), lock the lever. Much faster and more accurate without breaking out a tape measure.

The Festool may be a better saw, better built, the legs fold, it has a sliding table, it matches all my other gear and all that. Really to me, a table saw is just that, a saw in a table. All tables being flat and equal, the strength of the motor, quality of the blade, and the ease of use of the fence are the components of a table saw. The blade can be changed. But he fence is a pain in the ass compared to the Dewalt (and this is the GOOD fence we're talking about). I wish the Dewalt fence was on the CMS. I'd buy it in a second. Believe me, it's not a realization I'm happy with. I'm certainly not going to rush into it. As far as outfeed table and such go, Rousseau make a good set of add-ons, and even an off-sider router table. I'm going to look at some other contractor grade saws as well of course, the bosch being one of them.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Ok, Eli I see your point - and it saddens me a bit as my intended use for the CMS + TS 55 will be ripping, although on pretty small caliber wood. We'll see how it goes, hopefully good enough for field work.

The Makita 2704 tablesaw is an awesome machine with plenty of power, a superb fence (square, fast and very secure locking and also with a magnifier for the base ruler) and it does very well for all I have thrown at it. High precision machinery for sure and I'd take it any day over the DeWalt. And honestly I could have gotten the Makita for the same price as the CMS table plus modules, maybe even saved a penny.  The only reasons I did not get the Makita was I can't make it disappear (fold away table and stow, TS55 in the Systainer) and my fiancee would have sliced me up (ripped ME) if I brought home the Makita.

:-X

If you are ever out shopping for a great table saw the Makita 2704 has no real shortcomings and can be fitted to a hydraulic, foldable rolling bench.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

I forgot to mention I have used the DeWalt, the Bosch and the Makita tablesaws and Makita stands out with the Bosch being my second choice.

 

[Eli]

Well, I wanted the CMS (still do), but that fence seems to be a deal breaker for me. I hear you on being able to put the CMS away, that's why I'm so disappointed. I'm sure I'm going to stall on buying a tablesaw for a while now. One of the things I hated about the Dewalt (remember, I owned this saw already in the States) was that I had to always lug it out and put it away and it's heavy enough to not want to do that. Officially, I'm still looking for options. I've used the Makita. Wicked saw. In the US, it has a blade brake as well, which is a feature I like a lot. I'm going to have a good look around though.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Eli: I was wondering whether the CMS you used was the older Basis plus, the predecessor? It is said to have had some shortcomings which have been ironed out to some degree on the CMS.

The Precisios are (however I try to justify it) darn expensive considering the better part of the competition.
The draw saw feature is pretty nifty but that's it.

I am starting to feel bad about not having done any ripping yet  :-\ but it is the first weekend in a few months that me and the missus have two consecutive days off so those tools had better stay in the box, and I decided to postpone my excursion to the pending house repair due to "unforeseen circumstances". (he is a friend and is in no rush) 

 

[Eli]

No it was the CMS, the basis is discontinued here. In any event, the experience is the same, they use the same fences. Don't feel bad by any means, I mean you still have the advantage of being able to have modules for all the other tools. That was always the attraction of the CMS for me. It's not a bad saw at all, and the big bonus is that you can use the TS55 out of it as well. I still feel it's good value, I just really want that DeWalt fence back.

It's my hangup, don't let me sway you so easily. I've found that with all my other festools, I'm less willing now to let any tool be a compromise in terms of what I want my enjoyment out of it to be. 

 

[Goerge]

- Klugschei?er Modus an - *

Here in germany there's some rather upset rumors at discontinuing the basis.
The basis sported a real good rollertable (st1120) with a decent surface area compared to the standard sliding tables. Moreover it had the draw-saw feature, and was interconnectable to the mft, which might have saved you an extension table.

Rumor says as the ATF55 was discontinued in 05/06 and with the basis, while sporting the draw saw feature, drawing to much Interest away from the precisios, basis was altered to the now sold cms.
The cms uses the same accessories as the precisios, bringing in a bigger margin an less tooling cost for Festo.
Put simply, a lot of people here feel the cms is not as good as the basis was.

Eli, I do like the Module-Thing about the CMS / Basis, but apart from my constant nagging about height / tilt adjustment, try assembling and disassembling the ts into the cms....not very comfortable.

If you own guide rails and a plunge saw, I'd still choose one of the precisios - I think they are superior by far compared to the cms. If you enjoy the stationary router / linisher / jigsaw, think about getting the basic unit for around 750 bucks separately. You can connect all accessories of the precisio to the cms.

What you would gain is separate semi-stationary tools, each optimized for it's purpose, and less set-up time.
What you would lose is a couple of calories shifting more tools around doing on site jobs, and you would spend more money. As far as I noticed, the last bit wouldn't really annoy you for good tools - same with me, I'd rather buy once than twice and stay happy with my decision in the first place. I'd recommend checking out budget and advantages of a precisio and separate cms basic unit.

To which precisio, although I don't own one, the decision would be simple - as you can't cut big sheetgoods or thick and long stock comfortably with either one due to their size and weight, you'd use the plunge saw and guide rail again. So I don't reallyneed the cs70, which btw costs more than a cs 50 with a separate ts75 and some guide rails.

Huh, what a speech. - Klugschei?er Modus aus - **

(* Klugschei?er = gobshit / smart ass)

 

[Eli]

Is anyone actually using the Bosch 4100?

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Ok, I have now done my first ripping with the CMS: it was quite easy to assemble although it took longer than I expected. But, it was the first time and next time will probably be swifter, I am sure.

The LA 492095 guide fence was not that easy to come to grip with - I had to read the little leaflet accompanying it - but once in place it was very sturdy and the microadjustment worked well.

The actual ripping was a case of trimming down a few panels and this it did with ease. Although I was running relatively long pieces (210cm / ≈ 80") the fence did an exemplary job with no wobbling. I particularly liked the feature that allowed me to shift the fence between "normal" and thinner material. The end result was spot on and all in all I have no complaints.

Verdict on the CMS: the price of the unit, with the TS55 module and the LA 492095, - EXCLUDING the TS55 itself - is exceeding that of a Makita 2704. The Makita is a much stronger machine, cuts thicker wood and is a "real" workhorse of a tablesaw. Unfair comparison? Maybe, but pricewise the Makita seems a bargain and is easier to work with and performs better. The CMS is a working, but expensive, compromise.
Also I feel I might not be taking off the TS55 until I really need to and for general small material ripping I am starting to think I might be better off with one of those combined mitre/rip tabletop saws. I have a great mitre saw but I am toying with the idea of getting a combo mitre/rip saw. This would have me use the CMS/TS55 even less as the combo mitre saw would be even more portable as I don't really mind working low/ without a table - actually easier when ripping long material.

The CMS unit would make more sense to me if I got the Router module as well, but, I am hesitant as it means one more item and they do come at a price.

I got the CMS, the TS55 module and the LA 492095 as part payment for a renovation so I have not shelled out any hard cash but a few hours of work so at least I definitely got my moneys worth. The jury is still out on whether I will keep it or sell it and get that combination saw and save up for a "real" table saw if I ever get the extra space to house it. I will use the CMS to cut down some mdf in the week to come so I will see if it does as well with larger material as well.

regards, Henrik

 

[Eli]

Well that is another thing we haven't even really talked about, the fact that you need to put the saw in and out of the table. I'm just too lazy for this. I had the idea that maybe that would be an excuse to get the TS75 maybe. Like you, I wanted the router table as well, but by the time you get there, you could have made a router table and bought another tablesaw. I am remembering now the thing I didn't like about the Dewalt was it didn't have the brake on it like the Makita. I'm not sure the Bosch 4100 with the digital fence is out yet. Do you guys have it in Europe?

 

[Loren Hedahl]

Eli,

Here in the US DeWalt has a new smaller bench saw that has a 15 amp motor, vs 13 amp on the older one, pipe cage construction for better durability and the same type of fence.  It sells for $369 at the local Home Depot store.  Don't know if it is available in Australia, but it may be better suited to your use than the old model.

 

[Eli]

I saw that caged one Loren. I'd bet they don't have it here yet, but I've got a couple things going at once and trying to close on a house, so who knows when the lleh I'll actually get to go to a Non-Festool dealing type location and check out a few diff't ones.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

IMHO Bosch have really come strong the last couple of years and all the new stuff I have seen/tried have been top notch in build quality and handling.

I would be surprised if the Bosch 4100 isn't first rate.

They apparently have a new jigsaw: GST120 which looks really nice, I have the Bosch GST 85PE which has never let me down and is slightly smaller than the Festool equivalent.

There has never been so many niiiiice gadgets to choose from as now.  8)

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Update: have now put the CMS table / TS 55 module into good use, it works "as advertised" and the LA 492095 rip fence has not let me down. As a whole there is nothing to whine about except that it doesn't cut material thicker than 38mm - thick enough for many applications though. Quality of cut is very fine.

For someone with a semi stationery work shop I can recommend it, if you don't find mounting/dismounting the TS55 a hassle. It is fairly lightweight and quite portable.

For me I have just ordered a Makita Flipper F1000 rip/mitre saw which is heavier but still foldable and portable, cuts thicker and will replace my current mitre saw as well as the CMS.

I simply haven't room enough for the Makita 2704 tablesaw as for now (and I have access to one, if really needed) but for anyone looking for a reliable tablesaw with high precision and a nice built in table extension and excellent rip fence this is one to consider.

I had a look at the new DeWalt table (with the "cage") and though it is quite powerful, yet compact the rip fence is not in the same league and the adjustments felt sloppy and wobbly. So I ruled that one out. The shop had the Makita a few feet away and there was simply no contest between the two and they are in the same price range.