Better guide rail attachments?

[mino]

With my rails as shown, Yes it is centrally expanding.
My thinking is that I would assess the alignment and see how the Saw or Router runs along the rail. As there is a 0.1mm difference in rail width are now looking to see what type of tape can be used to make both rails the same width. What ever tape is used on the outer rail or paint or coating, can be applied to the side of the joiner for the rail that requires re alignment.
My current thinking is to leave it like it is, and then apply a coating to the reference side of the skinny one, and then live with the 0.05mm miss alignment on the floating side.
The Festool connectors, favour one side when tightened due to the offset design of the relief slot for the flexure.

Not sure from your post of your take on this, so take below as if for posterity mostly:

There is only one reference plane with the FS/2 rails - the vertical surface of the rib that is closest to the cut line. This means that even if two rails are not perfectly same width, which extrusion can never be, when using the Festool self-aligning connector set, the only "variances" in play are the "internal" width and reference wall material thickness of the reference rib. In practice that is within 0,02 mm or so, i.e. irrelevant.

Where one can get a variance in the 0.1 mm range is in the distances between the two ribs and the "back" vertical surface in turn. But that does not come to play when one uses only a single self-aligning connector like with FSV/2 or your setup. As such I would not waste a second worrying about the concern raised. The "unevenness" of the rail along its length - that gets multiplied by the short self-aligning connectors interfacing it - is THE concern to worry about at that stage. It is up to two orders of magnitude bigger and cannot be remediated. Ribs thickness concerns like this are completely irrelevant in that context.

Not using self-aligning connectors is pretty much the only way to get better than what you (and Festool) got now as far as whole-system accuracy goes *).

Thumbs up for the work!

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*) Assuming the reference surface is used correctly there is zero variance and the presence of two rails even allows compensating for rail unevenness if long-enough reference edge is used ...

 

[mcfal12]

EDIT: And apparently the Mafel/Bosch rail connectors work on the same one-edge-straight while the other edge has eccentric washer principle. And people report those as being good.

Having had both festool and makita rails before switching to Bosch/Mafell - it’s night and day and the B/M solution is superior for a number of reasons. 1. The connector is on the top, 2. In a single ‘groove’, 3. The eccentric washer mechanism as you outlined, 4, the width of the rail connector ensures only one is required and 5. I don’t worry I am going to strip the tiny grub screws like with the Festool/Makita connectors.

Of course there are trade offs such as limited OEM and aftermarket accessories with the B/M rails. I posted recently how I was able to use the older dashboard pws hinge system alignment insert to overcome the lack of a ‘rail square’.

https://festoolownersgroup.com/threads/dashboard-pws-and-hinge-rail-adapter.71725/post-732254

As an aside for anyone considering the Bosch FSNWAN Track Miter Guide as ‘rail square’ and angle finder option, my experience was subpar. The sliding adjustment would constantly get stuck. Additionally, there aren’t positive stop detents as you’d expect/want- especially at the price point. (I should probably write up a few review on it).
Back to accessories- there are some Etsy makers producing storage and stop solutions for the Mafell/Bosch rails- but there isn’t a solution like the Festool FS 1400 LR 32. You could undertake a modification and drill the holes out yourself and I think it could be accomplished with great precision with a tool like the UJK Parf Guide Mark II (although designed for drilling holes 96mm on center you can slide the guide back and forth and make it work).

Anyway- Bosch/Mafell rails have benefits and disadvantages over the Festool/Makita design- enough that I switched to the B/M and have no regrets based on my work.

 

[Cheese]

Having had both festool and makita rails before switching to Bosch/Mafell - it’s night and day and the B/M solution is superior for a number of reasons. 1. The connector is on the top, 2. In a single ‘groove’, 3. The eccentric washer mechanism as you outlined, 4, the width of the rail connector ensures only one is required and 5. I don’t worry I am going to strip the tiny grub screws like with the Festool/Makita connectors.

Of course there are trade offs such as limited OEM and aftermarket accessories with the B/M rails. I posted recently how I was able to use the older dashboard pws hinge system alignment insert to overcome the lack of a ‘rail square’.

https://festoolownersgroup.com/threads/dashboard-pws-and-hinge-rail-adapter.71725/post-732254

As an aside for anyone considering the Bosch FSNWAN Track Miter Guide as ‘rail square’ and angle finder option, my experience was subpar. The sliding adjustment would constantly get stuck. Additionally, there aren’t positive stop detents as you’d expect/want- especially at the price point. (I should probably write up a few review on it).
Back to accessories- there are some Etsy makers producing storage and stop solutions for the Mafell/Bosch rails- but there isn’t a solution like the Festool FS 1400 LR 32. You could undertake a modification and drill the holes out yourself and I think it could be accomplished with great precision with a tool like the UJK Parf Guide Mark II (although designed for drilling holes 96mm on center you can slide the guide back and forth and make it work).

Anyway- Bosch/Mafell rails have benefits and disadvantages over the Festool/Makita design- enough that I switched to the B/M and have no regrets based on my work.

Mafell does offer a Holey Rail...207601. Photo 1

The Mafell rails really are the best...my favorite for sure.

You forgot to mention the dual clamp tracks on the bottom of the Mafell rail which allows you to easily cut narrower pieces. Photo 2

 

[smorgasbord]

My understanding from Peter Millard is that the Mafell rails need special thinner rail clamps and don't have a top groove to hold not just a rail square, but also length stops. I also wonder about the ability to have different bases to run things like trim routers along a rail. The joining of rails seems obviously better on the Mafell, but that alone wasn't nearly enough for me to look at getting into that system.

Seems someone could design a new rail with all the best attributes, but then backwards compatibility with existing saws would be problematic. And so that'll never happen, unfortunately.

 

[mcfal12]

Mafell does offer a Holey Rail...207601. Photo 1

The Mafell rails really are the best...my favorite for sure.

You forgot to mention the dual clamp tracks on the bottom of the Mafell rail which allows you to easily cut narrower pieces. Photo 2

My mind is blown on the existence of that rail! I’m glad I posted…. I’ll be calling Timberwolf the US Mafell distributor.

and good call out on the clamps. I never use it for smaller cuts as I’m spoiled with the Festool CSC Sys 50 but I have seen it demonstrated.

 

[Cheese]

My understanding from Peter Millard is that the Mafell rails need special thinner rail clamps and don't have a top groove to hold not just a rail square, but also length stops. I also wonder about the ability to have different bases to run things like trim routers along a rail. The joining of rails seems obviously better on the Mafell, but that alone wasn't nearly enough for me to look at getting into that system.

Seems someone could design a new rail with all the best attributes, but then backwards compatibility with existing saws would be problematic. And so that'll never happen, unfortunately.

The Mafell rails do need a thinner rail clamp. However it's a one-handed squeeze style which is really easy to use.

Mafell also offers rail stops and FC Tools & Taiga Tools offer rail squares for Mafell & Bosch rails.

 

[Cheese]

My mind is blown on the existence of that rail! I’m glad I posted…. I’ll be calling Timberwolf the US Mafell distributor.

and good call out on the clamps. I never use it for smaller cuts as I’m spoiled with the Festool CSC Sys 50 but I have seen it demonstrated.

Unfortunately Timberwolf doesn't offer it but maybe they can order it in from Mafell...that'd be nice.

 

[justin_248]

Seems someone could design a new rail with all the best attributes, but then backwards compatibility with existing saws would be problematic. And so that'll never happen, unfortunately.

Metabo almost achieved exactly this. Their rail is compatible with Festool/Makita-style track saws, but uses a Mafell/Bosch-style splinter guard and connecting system. Unfortunately, they completely dropped the ball with the rest of the design, as the rail does not have a side t-slot to connect parallel guides, rail squares, and other useful accessories. Such a disappointment.



There's a Russian company called AMS Tools which makes a hybrid that has the best of both worlds, including the side t-slot that Metabo eliminated. Given the current situation, however . . .



They did include this handy little chart:

 

[mcfal12]

Unfortunately Timberwolf doesn't offer it but maybe they can order it in from Mafell...that'd be nice.

@Cheese after checking their website and not finding it; I spoke to Jeffrey at Timberwolf and he said he can order it. 1-3 month lead time. He went on to explain that the reason it’s not a stocked item is that it’s designed for the Mafell LO55 Router which is not available in North America. His understanding is that router does not work in the US on 60hz frequency.

I might do it. I would need a 3d printed adapter for my routers - gotta love that we live in an age this is possible - which might get me into 3d printing as a hobby……Or I’ll hit a maker up

 

[mcfal12]

Metabo almost achieved exactly this. Their rail is compatible with Festool/Makita-style track saws, but uses a Mafell/Bosch-style splinter guard and connecting system. Unfortunately, they completely dropped the ball with the rest of the design, as the rail does not have a side t-slot to connect parallel guides, rail squares, and other useful accessories. Such a disappointment.

View attachment 375629

There's a Russian company called AMS Tools which makes a hybrid that has the best of both worlds, including the side t-slot that Metabo eliminated. Given the current situation, however . . .

View attachment 375630

They did include this handy little chart:

Great info Justin. One thing I commend Bosch (and Milwaukee - I think) is that their track saws have the ability to use their rails plus the Festool/Makita rails by removing an insert on the base of the saws.

 

[mcfal12]

My understanding from Peter Millard is that the Mafell rails need special thinner rail clamps and don't have a top groove to hold not just a rail square, but also length stops. I also wonder about the ability to have different bases to run things like trim routers along a rail. The joining of rails seems obviously better on the Mafell, but that alone wasn't nearly enough for me to look at getting into that system.

Seems someone could design a new rail with all the best attributes, but then backwards compatibility with existing saws would be problematic. And so that'll never happen, unfortunately.

I can confirm, as I have several printed adapters, you can use the Bosch/Mafell rail as a guide for routers and jigsaws. I also found 3d printed stops for plunge cuts and stop cuts.

You’re correct about the lack of an option- that I know of- for parallel guides. Then again I didn’t know about the Mafell rail.

I never clamp down the rail when cutting. I haven’t found a need to do that.

@justin_248 highlights a great feature of these rails I missed. The splinter guards are affixed into a groove as opposed to double sided tape. The good is they’re faster, cleaner and easier to replace…. The bad is you cannot simply slide them over and reaffix with doubled sided tape as I know folks do to extend the life and save money. For me this hasn’t been a problem, I have a couple of splinter guards- when I change a blade from ripping to cross cut or for a different material, I pull off and store the current splinter guard and take the splinter guard I used previously with the blade I am switching to out of the Systainer and install it. It is a fast process and has served me well.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Buy longer rails and forget about joiners. Gauge straightness by eye. If it looks dead straight - it's close enough, and a 0.1mm error over 3m makes f*** all difference. The wood you're cutting is gonna expand and contract at least 10x the tiny error you're currently obsessing over. Chill out and get everything as near as dammit. It will be good enough. It's a natural material. It swells, contracts, twists, warps, shakes, splits, bows and misbehaves in every possible way it can. 38 years on the tools as a professional woodworker with a massive legacy of stellar work says I'm right.

 

[mino]

Buy longer rails and forget about joiners. Gauge straightness by eye. If it looks dead straight - it's close enough, and a 0.1mm error over 3m makes f*** all difference. The wood you're cutting is gonna expand and contract at least 10x the tiny error you're currently obsessing over. Chill out and get everything as near as dammit. It will be good enough. It's a natural material. It swells, contracts, twists, warps, shakes, splits, bows and misbehaves in every possible way it can. 38 years on the tools as a professional woodworker with a massive legacy of stellar work says I'm right.

That 0.1 mm "difference" was over the 150 mm of the connector .. with two 1400 mm rails joined that translates to about 1 mm deviation, that in addition to any rail non-straightness. Just for the record.

Secondly, two rails joined using a non-self-aligning connector like the Makita one referenced against a long-ish straight edge are potentially "straighter" than a 3000 rail. Which is limited in accuracy by flex, actually.

That said, for a pro who can justify the costs by revenue, joining rails is only for on-site work due to transport. Agreed there. For a hobbyist, the calculus changes and often turns into the difference in having a rail and not having it to make a cut.

Case in point: My "1700" rail semi-permanently joined from two 850 mm pieces is straighter than my 2500 (cut of from 2700) when put next to each other. The ca 0.1 mm difference is not something that bothers me though ... the rails do flex more in use.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

"Straightness" is a relative thing. As @woodbutcherbower said, a cut that looks straight is straight, in a place where visibility is what matters. Making cuts that have to be joined to each other is a different situation, but also a very specialized use-case. This is where the company's purchase of a Makita saw (and track) was a let-down. After seeing my TS55 make cuts, in Corian, that were straight enough for invisible seams, someone assumed that any track saw could do that. Turns out that wasn't the case, and they returned it, in favor of a TSC 55. Previously join-able seams were always created by flush-trimming with a router against a known straight edge. Whatever guide you use, it has to be near perfect, since the opposing sides double any error. Otherwise, you are stuck setting up for a mirror cut, which is a rather tedious process.
This is all a completely un-fair situation though. I'm sure these saws/tracks were never intended for this type of precision. For the much more typical sheet goods break-down, eyeball straight is plenty good. Convenience is more the factor there, and what that means is up to the user. For me, shop bound, convenience is one-piece rails, at all lengths. For installers and on-site joiners, that is more likely to be portability. Those 3m rails don't fit vans very well, especially in a safe storage space. (I'm pretty sure that's why the 2.7m rails even exist)

 

[mino]

"Straightness" is a relative thing. As @woodbutcherbower said, a cut that looks straight is straight, in a place where visibility is what matters. Making cuts that have to be joined to each other is a different situation, but also a very specialized use-case.

Not as specialised as you may think.

The main (almost only ?) accuracy-critical situation with rails for a hobbyist is when making cabinets out of sheet goods.

For a lot of frameless cabinets, one absolutely needs 0.2 millimetre (0.01") and better precision along the cut length. This is a non-issue for short cuts, 600 mm or so, but becomes not so simple when cutting 2000 mm high side pieces.

0.5 mm off, and the "cube" will already not connect when the edges meet in many cases. This is worst with laminated white chipboard - the go to for kitchen cabinets over here. There even shelves must be straight to not create unseemly gaps.

IMO Pros do not come across this mostly - they do not cut sheet goods for cabinets this way in most production cases. The have more efficient means for that task. Be a tracksaw, a CNC, or sub-contracting to a panel-saw equipped contractor.

Sure, people mitigate this by gang-cutting, etc., etc. But that gets you only so far and is not applicable every time.

That why I mentioned the 1 mm potential total deviation from improperly joined rails by just 0.1 mm at the connector bein a real problem. That is equivalent to ruined cut at best, ruined cabinet at worst if not caught before assembly. Been there, done that, ditched Makita rails for this specific reason as they did not "make the cut" even standalone ...

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ADD:
One more very, very common use case for a hobbyist: Making compatible pieces like shelves for existing industrial-made cabinets and/or adjusting/fixing/customising those.

That seemingly simple task to a spouse/friend/neighbour, is not so in practice and requires top-notch skills and kit. There is also often zero room for error - the board being used as stock may be from an unneeded part of the set and there is only one of it. No possibility to restock. Do it right or throw out the material and be cursed on for years by a relative.

Thinking more about it, this is the actual critical use case for a hobbyist to justify the investment and care.
Making new stuff is "easy". One can compensate by design, use additional stock etc. and the effect of failure is just time/money. Once the effect of a ruined cut is a pissed off spouse, the stakes are raised. To say the least.


As always, use cases, use cases ..