Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop

[sae]

Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

Whoops...Bosch suggested retail price is $1499. I guess Saw Stop just got bailed out of their potential conundrum.

Is that the real price?

MSRP on the GCM12SD was also $1499...and I never saw the saw sold for over $799 ($649 now).

 

[wow]

Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

Whoops...Bosch suggested retail price is $1499. I guess Saw Stop just got bailed out of their potential conundrum.

Is that the real price?

MSRP on the GCM12SD was also $1499...and I never saw the saw sold for over $799 ($649 now).

As long as that REAXX saw is less than $1000 street price, it will do very well. If they can offer it for $749-$799, they're gonna kick butt and take names.

This could get VERY interesting.

 

[Cheese]

Wow, 
I concurr. If this saw can be purchased for $700-$900 it will be an ass kicker. At $1400, it will be an also ran because of the quality of the SawStop product for the same price.

 

[Frank Pellow]

Wow, 
I concurr. If this saw can be purchased for $700-$900 it will be an  kicker. At $1400, it will be an also ran because of the quality of the SawStop product for the same price.

I expect that you will be able to get the Bosch for that street price.  But it will really surprise me if 'real' SawStop prices drop to that level.

 

[Cheese]

The rule of thumb I was taught back when I was a pup was that you could run a REAL 1.5HP motor on a typical 120 Volt circuit, but that was it. You couldn't run a 2HP one - period.

In addition to the 'downhill, with the wind, and once' nonsense ratings that are batted about these days, there have been some companies that have come out with REAL 1.75 HP motors to eek the last little bit of power out of a typical !20 Volt circuit. I think I *might* even remember a 1-7/8 HP rating one for the same reason.

Wow,
Thought you may be interested in this.  [smile]
I looked in my Baldor catalog and just to confirm your information, Baldor lists all of their single phase, 115 volt, 1 1/2 HP motors as requiring 12.6-16.4 amps. While all of their 2 HP motors require 16.6-23.0 amps. So to quote you, "You can't run a 2 HP one (on 15 amps) - period.", much less a 4 HP variant.

All of these motor rating shenanigans reminds me of the audio amplifier ratings in the 70's & 80's.  [huh]

 

[tbellemare]

Can someone please help me with where my math is going wrong?

1 HP = 746 Watts
2 HP = 1492 Watts

The lower end of distributed electricity in the U.S. is ~110 VAC

1492 Watts / 110 VAC = ~13.56 Amps

Tom

 

[elfick]

Can someone please help me with where my math is going wrong?

1 HP = 746 Watts
2 HP = 1492 Watts

The lower end of distributed electricity in the U.S. is ~110 VAC

1492 Watts / 110 VAC = ~13.56 Amps

Tom

Why do you think there is something wrong with your math? It looks right to me (IANAElectrician/Engineer).

For the REAXX they only published (that I could see) the HP (4) and amperage (15), so they are the numbers I used.

4 HP = 2984 W
W=VA so W/A=V so 2948/15= 198.3V

I suspect the numbers they published aren't for NA, at least not on 120V.

 

[jimbo51]

You are not accounting for motor efficiency. I saw one reference to 80% efficiency for standard motors less 4 hp.

Now Festool can introduce a table saw with Bosch technology! I bet that one would not sell for

 

[elfick]

You are not accounting for motor efficiency. I saw one reference to 80% efficiency for standard motors less 4 hp.

Now Festool can introduce a table saw with Bosch technology! I bet that one would not sell for

 

[GregBradley]

Can someone please help me with where my math is going wrong?

1 HP = 746 Watts
2 HP = 1492 Watts

The lower end of distributed electricity in the U.S. is ~110 VAC

1492 Watts / 110 VAC = ~13.56 Amps

Tom

Your math is correct.

A 1 HP motor can also be called a 746 Watt motor, meaning that it makes 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

That doesn't mean that a 1 HP motor requires 746 Watts of Electrical Power.

It needs more than 746 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

Typically need 900 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power also known as 1 HP.

You can have a 2 HP motor running on 120v but you need a 20 A circuit to do it.

 

[Frank Pellow]

I just received an ad for pre-order of the Bosch GTS 1041A-09 REAXX saw from ToolNut and their price is the same as the list price set by Bosch, that is $1,499 (us).  [sad]  I really did expect to see a lower street price so that's bad news.

The ship date is November, 2015.

 

[Cheese]

Your math is correct.

A 1 HP motor can also be called a 746 Watt motor, meaning that it makes 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

That doesn't mean that a 1 HP motor requires 746 Watts of Electrical Power.

It needs more than 746 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

Typically need 900 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power also known as 1 HP.

You can have a 2 HP motor running on 120v but you need a 20 A circuit to do it.

Thankyou...the light bulb just went on. Output vs input.

 

[Grasshopper]

I wouldn't expect them to lower the price out the gate for a brand new release product such as this.

I'd expect "sale" prices and lower street prices after the newness wears off.

I just received an ad for pre-order of the Bosch GTS 1041A-09 REAXX saw from ToolNut and their price is the same as the list price set by Bosch, that is $1,499 (us).  [sad]  I really did expect to see a lower street price so that's bad news.

The ship date is November, 2015.

 

[Sean7a]

I wouldn't expect them to lower the price out the gate for a brand new release product such as this.

I'd expect "sale" prices and lower street prices after the newness wears off.

I just received an ad for pre-order of the Bosch GTS 1041A-09 REAXX saw from ToolNut and their price is the same as the list price set by Bosch, that is $1,499 (us).  [sad]  I really did expect to see a lower street price so that's bad news.

The ship date is November, 2015.

At the end of the day.... it's expensive tech.  It may be a few years, and take a few more competitors, to bring these prices down.

Note estimated delivery schedule of November 2015

 

[grbmds]

I've always found HP ratings on electric motors misleading. The manufacturers seem to rate them to suit their own purposes rather than trying to provide accurate information. I'm not the expert but the amps and the type of motor would determine how much power it provides, wouldn't it? In the case of Bosch, is there any reason to believe the motor is any different than the motor in the current 4100? Seems like the same saw. Whatever that motor is, this new saw is likely to be the same. It's is rated with the same number of amps. I can't believe you would get 4HP from a 15 amp motor. It doesn't seem like that is possible.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I'm not sure where efficiency fits in mathematically, but if it is where I think it is, then it does work out to a 240V saw.

198.93V * .2 = 39.79; 198.93 + 39.79 = 238.72V

The complete equation is:

Hp = V x I x pf x eff / 746

V - Volts
I - Amps
pf - PowerFactor
eff - efficiency

The powerfactor is a variable function that changes depending on motor load. When the motor is idling with no load, the powerfactor is only about 0.15. As the motor approaches maximum load, the powerfactor approaches 0.90 (1.0 theoretic). When the motor nameplate specifies a powerfactor, it is actually kind of an arbitrary number depending on how conservative the engineers/company wanted to be for how far they push their windings. This is why some motors are listed at 0.80 (most common) and some push it to 0.90.

The efficiency is actually a different and less common number that most people mistake for the powerfactor. This is a fixed number for that specific motor, and relates to windage losses (air friction), air gap between the stator and rotor, and electrical hysteresis losses in the iron core of the windings. This number is also around 0.80 to 0.90, but will be the higher end for better quality motors.

In order for a tool to comply with U.S. standards, it's current must be limited to 16 amps on a 20 amp circuit. So a power tool can have a maximum power delivery of about:

120 x 16 x 0.85 x 0.85 / 746 = 1.85 Hp

 

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Rick.

What I would like to know is how Bosch can possibly try to claim 4hp.  Is there some brief period at start up where the power could theoretically get to that level.  [scratch chin]

Shame on you Bosch for this deception!  [mad]

 

[Cheese]

Thanks for the formula Rick [big grin]
It's a bit more involved than I thought.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I believe they do it mathematically by bringing the motor to an abrupt stop and calculating horsepower based on the resulting torque and rpm from full speed.

 

[thedude306]

I think they make the same crazy claims on their (Bosch) routers.

I'm just glad this opens up some competition and moves power tool tech forward (I hope)