Brushed vs brushless track saw

[robgott1]

I just got a ts60 and had me thinking….

For anyone with hands on experience. How does the power on the brushless ts6 compare to the power on the ts75. Obviously the cutting depth is different but does the beast still take the cake. Or is it a much more narrow margin with the improved technology. ?

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[sancho57]

I dont have a TS60 but I do have a TS75.

I have no complaints about the TS 75, Ive even cut 2" thick mesquite live edge slabs with it w no problem. IMO ya just need the right blade for the job

 

[robgott1]

What blade are you using for that [mention]jobsworth [/mention]

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[mino]

I just got a ts60 and had me thinking….

For anyone with hands on experience. How does the power on the brushless ts6 compare to the power on the ts75. Obviously the cutting depth is different but does the beast still take the cake. Or is it a much more narrow margin with the improved technology. ?

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TS60 uses a 1.8/1.2 mm kerf blade at 6800 rpm (~60 m/s blade speed)
TS75 uses a 2.4/1.8 mm kerf blade at 4400 rpm (~50 m/s blade speed)

The TS75 has
- bigger motor (aka heavier) with a signifficantly bigger momentum of the motor as well as about 2.4x the momentum of the blade (1.5 from thickness, 1.6 from diameter)

The TS 60 has
- fast full-wave electronics and fast speed sensors

When put this together, you get:
TS75 has a HUGE (about 3x) momentum advantage, hence the blade will not bog down when it hits something nearly as fast as the TS60 one would*. Hence some serious smoothness of operation is seen in practice.

The TS60 has VERY fast electronics AND a 30% better kerf-to-motor-power ratio, compensating for the lack of mechanical momentum.

So, my theoretical take is:
TS75 is (still) smoother, running over knots and such, but not by much.
TS60 is about as strong, but thanks to the narrower kerf actually punches ahead in *sustained* load while being about equal at knots and such

Overall, if you can get away with those 57 mm of cut depth, go for TS60 and look no further. Not because it can do more than TS75. Because it can do it at almost 1/2 the weight.

Lastly, thanks to the bigger momentum mentioned above, TS75 can go as low as 1400 rpm for aluminum or steel cutting ... the TS60 has no chance there - no matter how fast, electronics cannot compensate for the lack of a blade momentum when cutting metals. That is also why 3000 rpm is its lowest speed.

*had the TS60 had a TS75-style motor

 

[sancho57]

[member=81862]robgott1[/member]

The panther blade

 

[ChuckM]

[member=61254]mino[/member]
By any chance, your were a physics teacher in your previous life? I suggest that Festool adopt your approach when trying to explain some of its technical stuff.

As a previous owner of the TS75, I, too, would choose the TS60. The TS75 is heavy if you use it all the time for cuts that can be handled by a TS60.

 

[mino]

[member=61254]mino[/member]
By any chance, your were a physics teacher in your previous life? I suggest that Festool adopt your approach when trying to explain some of its technical stuff.

As a previous owner of the TS75, I, too, would choose the TS60. The TS75 is heavy if you use it all the time for cuts that can be handled by a TS60.

Well, my study fields were physical chemistry and electrical engineering .. is a bit of a curse too,  cannot avoid looking at everything through these lenses and it tends to annoy people for some reason.

Is like someone who worked at the food industry and just cannot put the other lenses off ..

 

[robgott1]

Great responses. Wonder if anyone has hands on with the ts60 and ts75

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[Packard]

On a slightly diverging path, I contrast my brushless battery powered drill with my 110 volt conventional drill.

My brushless allows me to tighten the chuck with one hand as the shaft does not turn unless it is under power.

My 110 volt drill has a chuck that requires both hands as there are two collars to grasp.  On the plus side there are side vents for the cooling fan, and I use that “wind” to blow away saw dust, and sometimes I miss that blower when using my brushless.

 

[robgott1]

Interesting I wonder if there are similarities to this with the track saws

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[Svar]

Lastly, thanks to the bigger momentum mentioned above, TS75 can go as low as 1400 rpm for aluminum or steel cutting ... the TS60 has no chance there - no matter how fast, electronics cannot compensate for the lack of a blade momentum when cutting metals. That is also why 3000 rpm is its lowest speed.

Momentum maters little here, since metal has no knots, it's just steady load.
Festool recommended speed for cutting Aluminum with TS75 is 2500-4400 rpm (1300-2900 m/min). You can cover that range with their other saws. Festool does offers metal blades for their TS60 and TS55.
I routinely cut metal (extrusions and plates) with much less capable TS55.

 

[mino]

On a slightly diverging path, I contrast my brushless battery powered drill with my 110 volt conventional drill.

My brushless allows me to tighten the chuck with one hand as the shaft does not turn unless it is under power.

My 110 volt drill has a chuck that requires both hands as there are two collars to grasp.  On the plus side there are side vents for the cooling fan, and I use that “wind” to blow away saw dust, and sometimes I miss that blower when using my brushless.

This is because there is a (mechanical) shaft break in the drills which are designed for hand-release chucks.

I had a Narex 230V drill with the same feature as it shipped with a quick-release chuck. That same drill shipped with a conventional chuck does not have such a brake.

Momentum maters little here, since metal has no knots, it's just steady load.
Festool recommended speed for cutting Aluminum with TS75 is 2500-4400 rpm (1300-2900 m/min). You can cover that range with their other saws. Festool does offers metal blades for their TS60 and TS55.
I routinely cut metal (extrusions and plates) with much less capable TS55.

/sorry for OT

The 160 and 168 Festool "metal" blades are multi-material for aluminum or very thin steel like drywall studs etc.
What I had in mind are special "dry cut" blades for up to 1/8" thick stuff which Festool does not sell these days. When cutting thicker profiles, the lighter blades slow-down enough as teeth hits the material to vibrate the whole saw heavier/bigger momentum blade helps there a lot.

Additionally, I usually I cut profiles which have all kinds of non-homogenities in thickness of the material the blade needs to go though. Basic rectangular profile fits that. If the blade is too light, I had a case when the blade literally stopped on 2-3 teeth after it hit the thicker section and the TSC just shut down for overload .. on a not much more powerful chopsaw, the bigger blade momentum from a 216 x2.8/2.2 blade and a heavy motor assembly helped it get through without a hiss.

But I do not want to go into details here, the main point was that the minimum speed of the TS 75 is signifficantly lower which makes it better for some niche use cases - steel cutting is one of those. The lower speed still can work even with the low torque the motor has at that speed mainly thanks to the heavier blade and motor assembly.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I have both, but have never used them to do the same thing (like back to back testing)
I've got a Panther blade for the TS75, but the lowest tooth-count blade I have for the TS60 is the Universal, something like 28 teeth? There is no comparison there.

 

[robgott1]

Yea [mention]Crazyraceguy [/mention] with my ts60 it’s buttery smooth and consistent even in white oak

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[robgott1]

[mention]Crazyraceguy [/mention] that would be an awesome test

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[Coen]

I just got a ts60 and had me thinking….

For anyone with hands on experience. How does the power on the brushless ts6 compare to the power on the ts75. Obviously the cutting depth is different but does the beast still take the cake. Or is it a much more narrow margin with the improved technology. ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TS60 uses a 1.8/1.2 mm kerf blade at 6800 rpm (~60 m/s blade speed)
TS75 uses a 2.4/1.8 mm kerf blade at 4400 rpm (~50 m/s blade speed)

The TS75 has
- bigger motor (aka heavier) with a signifficantly bigger momentum of the motor as well as about 2.4x the momentum of the blade (1.5 from thickness, 1.6 from diameter)

The TS 60 has
- fast full-wave electronics and fast speed sensors

When put this together, you get:
TS75 has a HUGE (about 3x) momentum advantage, hence the blade will not bog down when it hits something nearly as fast as the TS60 one would*. Hence some serious smoothness of operation is seen in practice.

The TS60 has VERY fast electronics AND a 30% better kerf-to-motor-power ratio, compensating for the lack of mechanical momentum.

So, my theoretical take is:
TS75 is (still) smoother, running over knots and such, but not by much.
TS60 is about as strong, but thanks to the narrower kerf actually punches ahead in *sustained* load while being about equal at knots and such

Overall, if you can get away with those 57 mm of cut depth, go for TS60 and look no further. Not because it can do more than TS75. Because it can do it at almost 1/2 the weight.

Lastly, thanks to the bigger momentum mentioned above, TS75 can go as low as 1400 rpm for aluminum or steel cutting ... the TS60 has no chance there - no matter how fast, electronics cannot compensate for the lack of a blade momentum when cutting metals. That is also why 3000 rpm is its lowest speed.

*had the TS60 had a TS75-style motor

The momentum is a negative when the cut closes on the blade or when you hit a nail, or...
And for big knots the higher momentum won't help you through it either.

The same with hole saws. When they bite, I'd rather have a nice small brushless motor than the old beastly 230V machines with near-zero torque but insane momentum.

Lastly, thanks to the bigger momentum mentioned above, TS75 can go as low as 1400 rpm for aluminum or steel cutting ... the TS60 has no chance there - no matter how fast, electronics cannot compensate for the lack of a blade momentum when cutting metals. That is also why 3000 rpm is its lowest speed.

Momentum maters little here, since metal has no knots, it's just steady load.
Festool recommended speed for cutting Aluminum with TS75 is 2500-4400 rpm (1300-2900 m/min). You can cover that range with their other saws. Festool does offers metal blades for their TS60 and TS55.
I routinely cut metal (extrusions and plates) with much less capable TS55.

They offer the blades for Aluminium / Plastics for every saw in their catalog (and past ones). But the blades for steel they only make in 210x2.2 (TS 75) and 230x2.5 (HK 85).

 

[mino]

The momentum is a negative when the cut closes on the blade or when you hit a nail, or...
And for big knots the higher momentum won't help you through it either.

The same with hole saws. When they bite, I'd rather have a nice small brushless motor than the old beastly 230V machines with near-zero torque but insane momentum.

All great points. If it came out as pushing one over the other, then such was not my message. To the contrary actually.

I would not agree with the knot stuff though. A heavy blade, on a heavy saw, will just not not stop at anything abruptly, it cuts through it. Allowing the operator to slow-down and give the motor the space needed to cut through. I was very surprised by my 380 mm Protool which is having "only" a 2600 watt motor and a 40 years old design at that. But the sheer momentum of that 110T Leitz blade just does not allow the saw to bog down. Not abruptly. It is then extremely easy to just slow down let the motor pick up pace if the cut if suddenly difficult. That machine reminds me a locomotive. I was afraid of the saw initially, a 45 lb moster after all, but the momentum and related gyroeffect makes it infinitely more controllable compared to every "small" saw I ever held. True, the TS75 is dimmunite in comparison as well.

But. The TS 60 does have the fast electronics and that, roughly speaking, makes up and even beyond for any lack of a momentum. A limitation which one does noticed fast with the TS 55 F & co saws.

So on board with you fully that the TS60 is the saw to get if performance was the deciding metric. At worst case it can be a bit weaker, but never game-changingly. And it will be stronger in those 90% of the causal cases. Would say that even ignoring the night/day weight situation.

 

[Svar]

They offer the blades for Aluminium / Plastics for every saw in their catalog (and past ones). But the blades for steel they only make in 210x2.2 (TS 75) and 230x2.5 (HK 85).

You can get one for steel from Bosch and others starting at 136mm with 20 mm bore. From my experience cutting steel plate I would favor toque over momentum and use blade smaller than nominal for a given saw.

 

[Coen]

They offer the blades for Aluminium / Plastics for every saw in their catalog (and past ones). But the blades for steel they only make in 210x2.2 (TS 75) and 230x2.5 (HK 85).

You can get one for steel from Bosch and others starting at 136mm with 20 mm bore. From my experience cutting steel plate I would favor toque over momentum and use blade smaller than nominal for a given saw.

But that is not Festool offering these blades  [wink]