building drawer boxes to maximize (internal) space

[Gregor]

Or use 1mm (or 2, in case you find 1mm is not stiff enough) aluminium sheets (which can nicely be cut with the TS to size) for the bottoms and screw them into the walls from below.
Make a rabbet the thickness of the bottom on the walls that leaves 1-2mm material toward the outside, to hide the bottom if you want it to not being visible.

Thanks Gregor. Am I correct that you are thinking of solid wood sides? Would think screwing into the edge of plywood wouldn't be good, but perhaps (hopefully!) I am wrong here. What size screws and what spacing?

Depends on thickness/flexibility of the metal bottom sheet, thickness of the vertical walls and the quality of the material. With good plywood (that dosn't mainly consist of air pockets inside) it wasn't a problem so far to use these in 4x50 for 12mm plywood (bigger should wall thickness permit it, if needed pre-drilled 1mm smaller than the screws shaft diameter to avoid splitting) and spaced every ~6-8cm (depending on feel, I usually tend toward overkill).

For 9mm ply I would try the 3mm ones (in biggest length), build one sample piece and abuse it massively to find out if it'll hold together. Nevertheless, I would suggest you make the walls a bit thicker and place the rails into a groove (so the walls grow to the outside but you won't really waste useable space on the inside) to have more meat to connect the bottom into.

The linked screws will waste ~2-3mm below the bottom for the screw heads but have the benefit that they would hold against the sheet. To use countersunk ones (when needing that space) in this configuration I would increse the amount of screws to lessen the load on the individual one (so they don't pull through the sheet, aluminium is soft).

As I tend toward overdoing it (but I'm not in a mass-production environment, so the extra cost for screws and labor are no real issue for me) you might get away with less screws or could need more - YMMV. It's always a good idea to do science and screw some into a test piece to pull them straight out again, to get an idea how good they'll hold in your material. As is to build a prototype to test into oblivion before doing the real thing, when it is hard enough work to destroy it... it'll most likely last under normal use conditions.

 

[Holmz]

If you are doing a few, what about using fibreglass and doing the whole box on a tapered male mould?
Then attach faces later.

The fibreglass should hold up to fatigue and vibration better than most things...

You would not need much of a draft angle on the sides.

 

[dicktill]

Or use 1mm (or 2, in case you find 1mm is not stiff enough) aluminium sheets (which can nicely be cut with the TS to size) for the bottoms and screw them into the walls from below.
Make a rabbet the thickness of the bottom on the walls that leaves 1-2mm material toward the outside, to hide the bottom if you want it to not being visible.

Thanks Gregor. Am I correct that you are thinking of solid wood sides? Would think screwing into the edge of plywood wouldn't be good, but perhaps (hopefully!) I am wrong here. What size screws and what spacing?

Depends on thickness/flexibility of the metal bottom sheet, thickness of the vertical walls and the quality of the material. With good plywood (that dosn't mainly consist of air pockets inside) it wasn't a problem so far to use these in 4x50 for 12mm plywood (bigger should wall thickness permit it, if needed pre-drilled 1mm smaller than the screws shaft diameter to avoid splitting) and spaced every ~6-8cm (depending on feel, I usually tend toward overkill).

For 9mm ply I would try the 3mm ones (in biggest length), build one sample piece and abuse it massively to find out if it'll hold together. Nevertheless, I would suggest you make the walls a bit thicker and place the rails into a groove (so the walls grow to the outside but you won't really waste useable space on the inside) to have more meat to connect the bottom into.

The linked screws will waste ~2-3mm below the bottom for the screw heads but have the benefit that they would hold against the sheet. To use countersunk ones (when needing that space) in this configuration I would increse the amount of screws to lessen the load on the individual one (so they don't pull through the sheet, aluminium is soft).

As I tend toward overdoing it (but I'm not in a mass-production environment, so the extra cost for screws and labor are no real issue for me) you might get away with less screws or could need more - YMMV. It's always a good idea to do science and screw some into a test piece to pull them straight out again, to get an idea how good they'll hold in your material. As is to build a prototype to test into oblivion before doing the real thing, when it is hard enough work to destroy it... it'll most likely last under normal use conditions.

Thanks again Gregor. Some great ideas here, and I really like those screws.

... thinking about it ...

 

[dicktill]

If you are doing a few, what about using fibreglass and doing the whole box on a tapered male mould?
Then attach faces later.

The fibreglass should hold up to fatigue and vibration better than most things...

You would not need much of a draft angle on the sides.

Interesting idea, [member=40772]Holmz[/member]. Alas, in optimizing each drawer because of the Chevy side wall, and to clear some plumbing under the sink, no two drawers are identical! And, alas #2, I'm really bad at fiberglass.  [eek]  But thanks; all these ideas are going to gel together (no pun intended) soon.

 

[Steven Owen]

Hi all,

I'm about to build some drawer boxes for my Chevy based camper-van galley/pantry. Storage space is extremely limited and very valuable, so I'm trying to maximize it as much as possible. I only way that I have seen wooden drawer boxes made is with a dado near the bottom of the front, sides, and back - usually seems to be made for 3mm plywood, and leaving 1/2" below the dado. Front, sides, and back are usually about 1/2" (or even 5/8"). I am planning on using side mounted slides, and am wondering if there is anything wrong with:
1)  9mm Baltic Birch for the front, sides, and back, fastened together with 4mm Dominos (perhaps too risky, and front/back need to be 12mm?)
2)  12mm plywood (BB if I can get it) for the bottom
3)  a fairly large number of 4mm Dominos fully through the 9mm box to attach the bottom, which would then be flush with the bottom of the front, sides, and back

All of the above gains about 1/4" in width and depth of the inside of the box, and about 1/4" in usable height. I'm hoping that the all plywood approach negates concerns/issues with relative wood movement.

Thanks in advance for any advice, Dick

I’ve actually become a big fan of using mahogany for my drawers over Maple and Baltic Birch.  The stability of the mahogany allows you to build very tight fitting drawers that maximize the usable space inside the cabinet.  The blotchiness of birch and the wood expansion and movement on maple have made those two less appealing. 

Mahogany is also easier to refinsh if drawer is scratched or the finsh is marred.

 

[dicktill]

I’ve actually become a big fan of using mahogany for my drawers over Maple and Baltic Birch.  The stability of the mahogany allows you to build very tight fitting drawers that maximize the usable space inside the cabinet.  The blotchiness of birch and the wood expansion and movement on maple have made those two less appealing. 

Mahogany is also easier to refinsh if drawer is scratched or the finsh is marred.

Thanks Steven. What thickness Mahogany? I would want to stick with the Cherry for the drawer front as that is what everything else in this "tiny apartment" is, although some of it is faux Cherry laminate. If I had had a choice, I would have bought one with the other option, Maple instead, for a brighter interior. However, what the drawer box is made of is not a concern here.

 

[Steven Owen]

I’ve actually become a big fan of using mahogany for my drawers over Maple and Baltic Birch.  The stability of the mahogany allows you to build very tight fitting drawers that maximize the usable space inside the cabinet.  The blotchiness of birch and the wood expansion and movement on maple have made those two less appealing. 

Mahogany is also easier to refinsh if drawer is scratched or the finsh is marred.

Thanks Steven. What thickness Mahogany? I would want to stick with the Cherry for the drawer front as that is what everything else in this "tiny apartment" is, although some of it is faux Cherry laminate. If I had had a choice, I would have bought one with the other option, Maple instead, for a brighter interior. However, what the drawer box is made of is not a concern here.

3/4 inch Mahogany plywood is much easier to find.  Not every carries 1/2 inch.  If you want to use dowels or dominos to join the drawer than 3/4 is a better choice for added strength.

1/2 works well in miter joints, rabbits and dados.  I wouldn’t use 1/2 for domino and dowel based joints in a drawer. 

The downside is darker wood for your drawer.  The upside of Mahogany will be the ability to squeeze every useable cubic inch out of the available drawer space.  If you can find Brazilian Mahogany sheets you can get a much lighter finish that will compliment the Cherry wood very well. Brazilian Mahogany shares some similar red tones with Cherry wood. 

The other alternative is Beech.  Festool chose Beech for dominos for a good reason.  It’s very stable for indoor use.  It stains better and has a nicer grain patterns than Birch.  There’s also less defects in Beech plywood.  Beech also accept dyes much better than birch so there more options to change the color to your liking.

Beech plywood would be another good option.  People choose birch because it’s 20-35% cheaper than Beech plywood.

Here’s link on staining Beech. It makes beautiful drawers.
https://www.woodworkerssource.com/b...inishing-tips-for-beech-woodworking-projects/

 

[dicktill]

3/4 inch Mahogany plywood is much easier to find.  Not every carries 1/2 inch.  If you want to use dowels or dominos to join the drawer than 3/4 is a better choice for added strength.

1/2 works well in miter joints, rabbits and dados.  I wouldn’t use 1/2 for domino and dowel based joints in a drawer. 

The downside is darker wood for your drawer.  The upside of Mahogany will be the ability to squeeze every useable cubic inch out of the available drawer space.  If you can find Brazilian Mahogany sheets you can get a much lighter finish that will compliment the Cherry wood very well. Brazilian Mahogany shares some similar red tones with Cherry wood. 

The other alternative is Beech.  Festool chose Beech for dominos for a good reason.  It’s very stable for indoor use.  It stains better and has a nicer grain patterns than Birch.  There’s also less defects in Beech plywood.  Beech also accept dyes much better than birch so there more options to change the color to your liking.

Beech plywood would be another good option.  People choose birch because it’s 20-35% cheaper than Beech plywood.

Here’s link on staining Beech. It makes beautiful drawers.
https://www.woodworkerssource.com/b...inishing-tips-for-beech-woodworking-projects/

Thanks Steven.

 

[tjbnwi]

You can use the 4mm Dominos. Just takes a little fore though and careful layout.

These pieces are 50mm tall, the top of the groove/dado is 15mm from the bottom.

I used the paddle Domino, referenced the bottom with the paddles instead of the top.

These are for the shop, going to spray them with KA+, which ever color I have enough of. Piece were made from drops of other jobs.

Tom

 

[Holmz]

If you are doing a few, what about using fibreglass and doing the whole box on a tapered male mould?
Then attach faces later.

The fibreglass should hold up to fatigue and vibration better than most things...

You would not need much of a draft angle on the sides.

Interesting idea, [member=40772]Holmz[/member]. Alas, in optimizing each drawer because of the Chevy side wall, and to clear some plumbing under the sink, no two drawers are identical! And, alas #2, I'm really bad at fiberglass.  [eek]  But thanks; all these ideas are going to gel together (no pun intended) soon.

I am watching this as I have similar plans.

Assuming that this thing is shaking like there is no tomorrow, then fatigue is your biggest concern.
That excludes Aluminium.
But it adds in Fibreglass, steel and wood.
The marine ply, screwed and glued may not be a bad option.

There are a lot of platforms with "slide out drawers" made with either that or MDF that seem to hold up... I have only glanced at them so not sure what they are  but they slide on plastic that looks a bit like an upside down ski base.

Another option that would not really helpful is saving time, but has some strength:
A laminated drawer like a canoe. and basically it is like fibreglass in that the fibres run in the direction needed for strength, but using thin wood strips that make a plywood composite. Then the wood can carries the stress gracefully around the corner. (Like your basic a cheap chair.)
That sort means that the cans lay on their sides as the corner has a fillet of material.

I think you need some requirements:
1) Water proof?
2) Corrosion?
3) cycles of fatigue?
4) etc... etc...

If you did the canoe style, then you would need the mandrel to lay them up on.
So whether it was fibreglass, hammered copper, or laminated wood, you need the same male mandrel.

I do not think you can do better than that... hence I would probably 'screw and glue' rectangles together...

 

[dicktill]

3/4 inch Mahogany plywood is much easier to find.  Not every carries 1/2 inch.  If you want to use dowels or dominos to join the drawer than 3/4 is a better choice for added strength.

1/2 works well in miter joints, rabbits and dados.  I wouldn’t use 1/2 for domino and dowel based joints in a drawer. 

The downside is darker wood for your drawer.  The upside of Mahogany will be the ability to squeeze every useable cubic inch out of the available drawer space.  If you can find Brazilian Mahogany sheets you can get a much lighter finish that will compliment the Cherry wood very well. Brazilian Mahogany shares some similar red tones with Cherry wood. 

The other alternative is Beech.  Festool chose Beech for dominos for a good reason.  It’s very stable for indoor use.  It stains better and has a nicer grain patterns than Birch.  There’s also less defects in Beech plywood.  Beech also accept dyes much better than birch so there more options to change the color to your liking.

Beech plywood would be another good option.  People choose birch because it’s 20-35% cheaper than Beech plywood.

Here’s link on staining Beech. It makes beautiful drawers.
https://www.woodworkerssource.com/b...inishing-tips-for-beech-woodworking-projects/

Thanks again Steven, all good information.

 

[dicktill]

You can use the 4mm Dominos. Just takes a little fore though and careful layout.

These pieces are 50mm tall, the top of the groove/dado is 15mm from the bottom.

I used the paddle Domino, referenced the bottom with the paddles instead of the top.

These are for the shop, going to spray them with KA+, which ever color I have enough of. Piece were made from drops of other jobs.

Tom

Thanks Tom; as I said above, all good information.

 

[dicktill]

I am watching this as I have similar plans.

Assuming that this thing is shaking like there is no tomorrow, then fatigue is your biggest concern.
That excludes Aluminium.
But it adds in Fibreglass, steel and wood.
The marine ply, screwed and glued may not be a bad option.

There are a lot of platforms with "slide out drawers" made with either that or MDF that seem to hold up... I have only glanced at them so not sure what they are  but they slide on plastic that looks a bit like an upside down ski base.

Another option that would not really helpful is saving time, but has some strength:
A laminated drawer like a canoe. and basically it is like fibreglass in that the fibres run in the direction needed for strength, but using thin wood strips that make a plywood composite. Then the wood can carries the stress gracefully around the corner. (Like your basic a cheap chair.)
That sort means that the cans lay on their sides as the corner has a fillet of material.

I think you need some requirements:
1) Water proof?
2) Corrosion?
3) cycles of fatigue?
4) etc... etc...

If you did the canoe style, then you would need the mandrel to lay them up on.
So whether it was fibreglass, hammered copper, or laminated wood, you need the same male mandrel.

I do not think you can do better than that... hence I would probably 'screw and glue' rectangles together...

Thanks again Holmz. These do not need to be waterproof, or highly corrosion resistant (although that's always nice). Fatigue is always an issue to consider on a "moving apartment".

You have some interesting options, but again, alas, way above my pay grade (and more importantly, skill!)

-Dick

 

[dicktill]

Hi all,

I want to thank all of you who have replied for your thoughtful ideas.

After much deliberation, I have decided to have my local HVAC shop fabricate the four pantry drawer boxes (12-1/4" wide, 16 to 21" deep) from 1/16" galvanized steel. The flat pattern for all four walls and the bottom will be in the shape of a fat cross, and they just love to use their plasma cutter for this sort of stuff. Normally I object to this, but in this case, once the four walls are folded up 90*, the corners will be welded, and will undo all the ragged edges (as long as the original rectangular pattern is sheared).

I will then pop rivet the slides to the sides, and screw the Cherry solid wood fronts on using the special screws with oversized heads that allow some adjustment (sorry, can't remember the name/brand of these right now). I'm ordering one of these recessed handles from Lee Valley: Cherry Pull #02G13.25, as well as one each in Red Oak and Maple, and I'll see which looks best against the Cherry planks I have. (sorry, trying to paste in the URL for these didn't work)

If the pantry boxes are stiff enough (and I think they will be), I'll have them do the four galley drawer boxes the same; these drawers are 18 to 19-3/4" wide, and 21-1/2 to 23-1/4" deep (I said I had to shuck-&-jive around plumbing and such!) If the pantry drawers are "iffy" stiffness-wise, then these wider ones will be made from 0.080" galvanized steel.

BTW, I've greatly increased the available volume over the last few weeks: my first drawer design was just under 8 cubic feet, and now I'm just under 11-1/2 cubic feet! I'll report back on my progress as things develop.

Regards, Dick

 

[mike_aa]

[member=18203]dicktill[/member] 

How about some pictures as you are putting them together and of the final product?

Thanks, Mike A.

 

[HarveyWildes]

[member=18203]dicktill[/member] 

How about some pictures as you are putting them together and of the final product?

Thanks, Mike A.

Ditto

 

[Paul G]

Interesting thread, I look forward to the updates.

 

[dicktill]

[member=18203]dicktill[/member] 

How about some pictures as you are putting them together and of the final product?

Thanks, Mike A.

Ditto

Interesting thread, I look forward to the updates.

Wow, thanks for all the interest guys, especially now that for the most part I've decided to not use my woodwooding skills (such as they are) and tools. Dang, not a single Domino in sight.

I will post some pics as I go along, and there are a couple of other projects (shoe & map shelves in the aisle, and a cabinet in the bath) in the camper that will be made of wood, and should have some Dominos. But perhaps those should be posted in the "members projects" section? Perhaps the continuation of this one too, with a link posted here?

Regards, Dick

 

[dicktill]

... and screw the Cherry solid wood fronts on using the special screws with oversized heads that allow some adjustment (sorry, can't remember the name/brand of these right now).

Can someone help me out here? I've seen (recently) these screws with oversized heads that you put into an oversized hole in the drawer box (faux) front to attach the real front. You then have a bit of wiggle room/adjustment available.

Thanks Dick

 

[dicktill]

Depends on thickness/flexibility of the metal bottom sheet, thickness of the vertical walls and the quality of the material. With good plywood (that dosn't mainly consist of air pockets inside) it wasn't a problem so far to use these in 4x50 for 12mm plywood (bigger should wall thickness permit it, if needed pre-drilled 1mm smaller than the screws shaft diameter to avoid splitting) and spaced every ~6-8cm (depending on feel, I usually tend toward overkill).

For 9mm ply I would try the 3mm ones (in biggest length), build one sample piece and abuse it massively to find out if it'll hold together. Nevertheless, I would suggest you make the walls a bit thicker and place the rails into a groove (so the walls grow to the outside but you won't really waste useable space on the inside) to have more meat to connect the bottom into.

The linked screws will waste ~2-3mm below the bottom for the screw heads but have the benefit that they would hold against the sheet. To use countersunk ones (when needing that space) in this configuration I would increse the amount of screws to lessen the load on the individual one (so they don't pull through the sheet, aluminium is soft).

As I tend toward overdoing it (but I'm not in a mass-production environment, so the extra cost for screws and labor are no real issue for me) you might get away with less screws or could need more - YMMV. It's always a good idea to do science and screw some into a test piece to pull them straight out again, to get an idea how good they'll hold in your material. As is to build a prototype to test into oblivion before doing the real thing, when it is hard enough work to destroy it... it'll most likely last under normal use conditions.

Again, need a bit of help here. I'm not going to use these pan head Spax screws for this project, but they would be very handy for other projects. But I haven't found a source here in The States for them.

Thanks, Dick