I love my c12 and watching Tom Silva on This Old House's online videos he puts it to use on some deck projects which answers a previous post of mine. But when it comes to having to drill into concrete or treated 4x4 or other materials what other drill would people recommend? I've asked about an impact driver which seems nice but I think my next need is just something burlier like a hammer drill. I'm only a homeowner but I keep running into things that I don't want to use the c12 for like drilling anchors into a concrete wall to anchor a gate, or holes through treated 4x4 for raised beds. Bosch, Makita, Hitachi, Hilti? I also need some education on what a hammer drills action really is. According to a Hilti rep, "hammer" is a rotary motion... and not a in/out motion... is this right? I always thought a hammer drill, like an impact driver punches the bit into the material. Obviously I don't know what the hell I'm talking about so can you all give me some advice on a compliment to the c12? Mahalo!
Burlier compliment to the c12?
- Thread starter Mark
- Start date
Mark Enomoto said:
There was a previous discussion here about impact, or hammer drills for woodworking. I don't have time at this moment to go back to identify the thread. I was surprised that others had used such drills for woodworking. I had never thought of them for such purpose. I have used both hammer and impact drills for masonry (retired from all of that since 1981, so i don't relly know what is on the market today) I am of the opinion that it would be very fooloish to use a C12 for drilling in masonry. The dust from concrete and other masonry applications is far more intense, abraisive and caustic than what you will find from woodworking. I think it would ruin your C12. For masonry tools, or even ww tools used for masonry, i always found milwaukee to stand up the best. They just ran forever no matter what abuse they were subjected to. That being said, my requirements are different now and what old Milwaukees I still have are mainly gathering dust and only brought out of the containers when i am cutting into used lumber, or wood that has been impregnated with cement and/or nails. For evrything else, i use my Festools.
Tinker
Thanks for the reply Tinker... I found the other thread (http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=94.0) should have done a search first. Hilti might be the ticket as I'm always impressed with their build quality and Festoolian price point 
One thing to note is that SPAX seems to be one of the more common fasteners in Europe than here. At Home Depot, SPAX seems to be in the same display class as Hilti tools. I've used SPAX before and its a great fastener. Combining SPAX with Torx might be why the European markets find less of a need for an impact driver. Noise was an interesting factor in that an impact driver might be too noisy for the same task that a c12 + SPAX + Torx can accomplish. Another post/article would be how European standards drive more advanced tool design like Festool. It might the simple logic of having to work in a place that is more populated that drives "better" tool design in the end.
One thing to note is that SPAX seems to be one of the more common fasteners in Europe than here. At Home Depot, SPAX seems to be in the same display class as Hilti tools. I've used SPAX before and its a great fastener. Combining SPAX with Torx might be why the European markets find less of a need for an impact driver. Noise was an interesting factor in that an impact driver might be too noisy for the same task that a c12 + SPAX + Torx can accomplish. Another post/article would be how European standards drive more advanced tool design like Festool. It might the simple logic of having to work in a place that is more populated that drives "better" tool design in the end.
Brice Burrell
Member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2007
- Messages
- 7,385
Mark to answer the question about hammer drills, or how they work really. There are two differant tools called a "hammer drill". The first is a hammer drill and second is the rotary hammer. The difference is in how the impact motion is produced by the tool. Hammer drills have in the past been a little larger, plus have a chipping function, sorta like a tiny jackhammer. Older hammer drills usually had a relatively short life because the impact action of the tools is very hard on it. Rotary hammer drills are a bit less powerful but have a longer life as it's impact action easier on the tool. Most rotary hammers now have the chipping function and a regular drilling function too. Both the hammer and rotary drills use an impact and drilling motion to drill the holes. These tools are for drilling holes and chipping concrete and other masonry. The rotary hammers can drill as I said, but I only use the drilling function to drive "tapcon" and other masonry fasteners.
I think you needs would be best served with a rotary hammer, I would recommend getting one with a SDS plus chuck, so you'll also need SDS plus bits. I picked up a Makita rotary hammer from Amazon when they had a good deal. This package has a grinder and 5 bit set included. Any of the brands you mentioned will do the job. However, since this is a tools that might not get a lot a use you may want to borrow one if you can.
I think you needs would be best served with a rotary hammer, I would recommend getting one with a SDS plus chuck, so you'll also need SDS plus bits. I picked up a Makita rotary hammer from Amazon when they had a good deal. This package has a grinder and 5 bit set included. Any of the brands you mentioned will do the job. However, since this is a tools that might not get a lot a use you may want to borrow one if you can.
[quote author=Wikipedia]Hammer Drill
The hammer drill is similar to a standard electric drill, with the exception that it is provided with a hammer action for drilling masonry. The hammer action may be engaged or disengaged as required.
The hammer action is cheap but delicate. It uses two cam plates to make the chuck accelerate towards the work. However because of the relative masses of the chuck+bit and the remainder of the drill the energy transfer is inefficient and will fail to penetrate harder materials and vibrates the operators hand. The cams wear fast.
Compare this to a rotary/pneumatic hammer drill where just the bit is accelerated to the work. They have relatively little vibration and penetrate most building materials. It feels as though the work is sucking the bit inwards.
Large cam hammer drills, especially transverse motor, are crude in their action. The energy delivered in each stroke is highly variable. The cheaper drill will smash its way through the work and vibrate the surroundings, this can cause lots of collateral damage. A good SDS drill will gently pulverise the work material just in front of the bit and glide into the hole without any "fuss".
However there is a big difference in cost. In the UK typically ?12-40 for a cam hammer and ?100 up for a rotary/pneumatic. For light DIY use they are fine.
Rotary hammer drill
The rotary hammer drill (also known as roto hammer drill or masonry drill) is an electric drill type dedicated to drilling holes in masonry. The rotary hammer drill is a percussion drill that uses a weight to create the impact force on the masonry bit. Generally, the drill chuck of the rotary hammer drill is designed to hold SDS drill bits. Some styles of this drill are intended for masonry drilling only and the hammer action cannot be disengaged. Other styles allow the drill to be used without the hammer action for normal drilling.
[/quote]
I've always disliked hammerdrills. Both their vibration and sound level are extremely irritating. A small rotohammer like the Makita Brice pointed out or my Bosch Bulldog does the work faster and is nicer to use.
Any of the small rotohammers will offer hammer-plus-rotation and rotation only modes. Some have hammer-only mode also. If that's important to you (I think it's nice to have), check carefully. At the time I bought mine, the Bosch D-handle Bulldog had hammer-only, while their pistol-grip Bulldog did not.
The Bulldog is great for installing anchors. It'll drill 1/2" (13mm) holes in rock or concrete block all day long. I've put holes over a foot long in rocks for water features. I've got a drill chuck for it, so it can also be a pretty heavy-duty wood/metal drill.
Limitations of hammer-only mode: this a tiny, lightweight, low-powered tool compared to those jackhammers powered by trailer-mounted air compressors. I have broken up concrete as large as one yard square (call it one meter square) and several inches thick, but I wouldn't do that every day and would have used a demolition hammer instead if one had been available. As it was, I drilled multiple holes and then used the chisel point. Not very time-efficient and I think verged on abusing the tool.
Limitations of drilling: If you want to drill big holes, the 7/8"-rated rotohammers are not what you need. I think Bosch offers SDS-Plus core drills up to 2.5" (63mm), but that's probably pushing it. You can make crude big holes by drilling around the circumference and then connecting the holes with a chisel point, but you won't go very deep this way before you'll decide you'd like to use some other method.
Ned
The hammer drill is similar to a standard electric drill, with the exception that it is provided with a hammer action for drilling masonry. The hammer action may be engaged or disengaged as required.
The hammer action is cheap but delicate. It uses two cam plates to make the chuck accelerate towards the work. However because of the relative masses of the chuck+bit and the remainder of the drill the energy transfer is inefficient and will fail to penetrate harder materials and vibrates the operators hand. The cams wear fast.
Compare this to a rotary/pneumatic hammer drill where just the bit is accelerated to the work. They have relatively little vibration and penetrate most building materials. It feels as though the work is sucking the bit inwards.
Large cam hammer drills, especially transverse motor, are crude in their action. The energy delivered in each stroke is highly variable. The cheaper drill will smash its way through the work and vibrate the surroundings, this can cause lots of collateral damage. A good SDS drill will gently pulverise the work material just in front of the bit and glide into the hole without any "fuss".
However there is a big difference in cost. In the UK typically ?12-40 for a cam hammer and ?100 up for a rotary/pneumatic. For light DIY use they are fine.
Rotary hammer drill
The rotary hammer drill (also known as roto hammer drill or masonry drill) is an electric drill type dedicated to drilling holes in masonry. The rotary hammer drill is a percussion drill that uses a weight to create the impact force on the masonry bit. Generally, the drill chuck of the rotary hammer drill is designed to hold SDS drill bits. Some styles of this drill are intended for masonry drilling only and the hammer action cannot be disengaged. Other styles allow the drill to be used without the hammer action for normal drilling.
[/quote]
I've always disliked hammerdrills. Both their vibration and sound level are extremely irritating. A small rotohammer like the Makita Brice pointed out or my Bosch Bulldog does the work faster and is nicer to use.
Any of the small rotohammers will offer hammer-plus-rotation and rotation only modes. Some have hammer-only mode also. If that's important to you (I think it's nice to have), check carefully. At the time I bought mine, the Bosch D-handle Bulldog had hammer-only, while their pistol-grip Bulldog did not.
The Bulldog is great for installing anchors. It'll drill 1/2" (13mm) holes in rock or concrete block all day long. I've put holes over a foot long in rocks for water features. I've got a drill chuck for it, so it can also be a pretty heavy-duty wood/metal drill.
Limitations of hammer-only mode: this a tiny, lightweight, low-powered tool compared to those jackhammers powered by trailer-mounted air compressors. I have broken up concrete as large as one yard square (call it one meter square) and several inches thick, but I wouldn't do that every day and would have used a demolition hammer instead if one had been available. As it was, I drilled multiple holes and then used the chisel point. Not very time-efficient and I think verged on abusing the tool.
Limitations of drilling: If you want to drill big holes, the 7/8"-rated rotohammers are not what you need. I think Bosch offers SDS-Plus core drills up to 2.5" (63mm), but that's probably pushing it. You can make crude big holes by drilling around the circumference and then connecting the holes with a chisel point, but you won't go very deep this way before you'll decide you'd like to use some other method.
Ned
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 10,358
HI,
You have received some good definitions and info already. I have Bosch Bulldog Rotory Hammer. It is the small D Handle one. I like it a lot. It is a smoother action and less rackety than most hammer drills. It uses SDS Plus bits. Zips through masonry like it was wood. I have a chipping chisel for it also, and it would do a pretty good job of breaking up an old concrete stairway , etc.
One thing to keep in mind if you go with a rotory hammer instead of a hammer drill- you will not be able to use regular drill bits in it even though it can be put in the drill only mode. It will have a special SDS Plus chuck that the special SDS Plus bits fit into. If you get a hammer drill it will have a regular drill type chuck so you can use all your normal bits ( like big wood boring bits). I went for the rotory hammer because I already had a big heavy duty drill.
Seth
You have received some good definitions and info already. I have Bosch Bulldog Rotory Hammer. It is the small D Handle one. I like it a lot. It is a smoother action and less rackety than most hammer drills. It uses SDS Plus bits. Zips through masonry like it was wood. I have a chipping chisel for it also, and it would do a pretty good job of breaking up an old concrete stairway , etc.
One thing to keep in mind if you go with a rotory hammer instead of a hammer drill- you will not be able to use regular drill bits in it even though it can be put in the drill only mode. It will have a special SDS Plus chuck that the special SDS Plus bits fit into. If you get a hammer drill it will have a regular drill type chuck so you can use all your normal bits ( like big wood boring bits). I went for the rotory hammer because I already had a big heavy duty drill.
Seth
joiner1970
Member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 3,222
Go for a Hilti I have a TE10 that I bought 2nd hand about 15 years ago and its still going strong, I can even use it with 4" diamond cores.
Dave Ronyak
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,234
I can't disagree with any of the answers given already, many by pros with much more user experience than I have as a homeowner DIYer. My 50+ yr old home and its attached garage is full brick and has concrete floors, so many modifications / repairs involve working those hard materials. After spending ~2 hrs to drill 4 vertical holes in old concrete to anchor a new wall section (converting what was once a garage into a bedroom) and facing need to drill ~ 50 holes in that concrete horizontally for rebar to reinforce the junction between a new pour and old concrete, I bought a Milwaukee 1/2 hammer drill, after "playing" with a few others at HD. This drill only has only 2 modes - rotating only and rotating + hammering. The 50+ horizontal holes took only 3 hours, and I that Bosch bit is still in excellent condition, despite drilling every hole as deep as the bit would go. If I had it to do over again, I might have instead purchased a slighltly larger model equipped with a "hammer only" mode so I could use it to clear old mortar from between bricks for repointing, but this can be done with an angle grinder (very dusty job!). The Milwaukee runs smoothly and quietly. It was made in Germany (by AEG, I think), and I can use any common twist drill bit in it having a 1/2 inch shank or less. I like not having to acquire a collection of SDS bits.
Dave R.
Dave R.
Well, I cave in today to the Hilti guy at Home Depot. Talked about getting a corded hammer drill for the burlier jobs the C12 couldn't or more likely "shouldn't" handle and got this combo package for $449. http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/modules/prcat/prca_product.jsp?OID=42045&CATE_OID=-20989 While only a 14.4 drill driver and a 14.4 Impact driver... the price seemed good. Since I'm now in the process of remodeling our house it will be a good complement to the c12 and anything bigger, I'll head down to the rental center. Quality so far seems really good, ergonomics are great and I think this will be a great asset. Thanks for all the previous advice.
That is a great combo. I have the SID144 with the 1/4" hex adaptor. I noticed the link you posted is for the SIW with the 1/2" square driver. I opted for the SID because most driver bits have hex shanks. Are you planning on using your impact gun on vehicles with sockets?
The guns are super light, very powerful and have the battery power meter on the back. Now I am waiting for my Dewalt cordless drill to die so I can pretend like buying a T15+3 is even an option to compliment the Hilti gun.
The guns are super light, very powerful and have the battery power meter on the back. Now I am waiting for my Dewalt cordless drill to die so I can pretend like buying a T15+3 is even an option to compliment the Hilti gun.
It looks like a nice combo, but I don't think it will do all that you mentioned. (Hammerdrilling into concrete; I could be wrong here but the drill seems like a drill-driver, not a hammerdrill-driver)+
The "hammerfunction" of an impactdriver is also different than that of a hammerdrill. A hammerdrill hammers the bit down, (stroke inline with the bit) an impactdriver has a tangential stroke (it hammers the shaft round).
The "hammerfunction" of an impactdriver is also different than that of a hammerdrill. A hammerdrill hammers the bit down, (stroke inline with the bit) an impactdriver has a tangential stroke (it hammers the shaft round).
Just looked at the casing and its a Hammer Drill SFH 144-A and Impact Driver SID 144-A. Hard to get any real specs on the tools from Hilti's site which to be honest isn't all that well done considering the design of the tools. Too many clicks to get to information. Also I'm not a general contractor or professional so the hammer drill will be used for drilling anchors into CMU walls and to bore holes into treated lumber for lags and bolts. I have to admit that those 3 LEDs on the front of the Impact are awesome and just what you need to shoot light into nooks and crannies. This is definitely a feather that Festool should try to incorporate into their next rev.
Similar threads
