Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?

[inaum]

First post although I am an experienced Festool user and a frequent visitor to forums.

I am in the market for a new portable dust extractor.  My work is renovation involving sanding, chasing, both with old plasters and timbers. While I don't deal with hazardous dusts (e.g. asbestos, lead, mould,etc ) in a controlled way, dealing with older properties means that hazardous dusts are inherent to the job on daily  basis. Its not building site work so there is no direct outside control - i.e. there is no requirement what I bring on the job.

Right now my main selection criteria is:
- minimise exposure - looking at H class (or Hepa) DE due to dealing daily with hazardous dust
- good reliability - good warranty and support.
- good productivity - making sure it sucks dust and continues doing at good rate as it fills up (and I do understand drop off etc).

Cost is important but not main consideration.

Choices I have narrowed to are:
- Starmix H1635 - 1600W H-class. Looks great in specs, internet feedback is good, 'crazy' youtube videos etc. Main negative is support - 1 year warranty and limited presence in UK. After 1 year, I would be in uncertain waters with any problems. The DE itself looks good, ipulse, washable filters. I object to lack of guidance from Starmix on the longevity of filters (and the crazy cost!). Also some of their guidance made little sense - have to use fleece bag to protect the filters. My experience with autoclean 'functions is that it doesn't work with fleece bags, unless someone invents autoclean that cleans the bag as well.  So using both will just end up with bag clogging up and make ipulse redundant.

- Festool CTM26 . Good support, good trade feedback, well understood. Some of the things could be better, more suction, wider standard hose, but overall it works and will give me at least 3 years of worry free usage. Only problem is - its not H class, not even near (e.g. HEPA). So its out.

- Festool CTH26 - This looks again good in specs. Not as good as Starmix on paper but lot of other positives - excellent support, great warranty, known brand. Problem is - I don't have any practical experience of CTH. Does it suck as well as M class or is it considerably lower. Can I use it as M class where I just keep filling the bag until it starts beeping? Any other gotchas?

So anyways, thats my dilema - all advice welcome .

 

[AlexThePalex]

Why are you set on a H class vac? It seems overkill to me if you don't deal professionally with hazardous dust like asbestos. It's going to cost you a lot extra and you'll have more discomfort working with the vac than when you go for an M or L class vac.

 

[inaum]

Cost is not prohibitive. Looking at Festool, real world price difference is less than £100 from CTM to CTH. Starmix even less (~£60).

Second part of your statement - "more discomfort" is what I am trying to understand. I am after someone who has real practical experience of using H-class (e.g. Festool CTH) on daily basis who can share their experience and any discomfort!

Also, do I require one? Not from HSE perspective -  my work is not HSE notifiable. So its a personal choice. If you work with buildings which are 100+ years old, its a can of worms. First you have original materials, then you have years of subsequent coatings, laggings, etc to deal with. I am not worrying about it. My simple view is, I need a new dust extractor, get one with best filtration that will cover all the bases, then get on with the job. And this is why I am looking at H-class, I just really need to understand how different it is day to day from M-class.

 

[Gregor]

CTM differs from CTL in checking for enough airflow and having M certification.
CTH differs from CTM in using a HF CTH 26/48 main filter (78€), FIS-CTH 26/3 bags (58€/3) and having H certification.

I strongly suspect you can easily turn a CTL into an effective CTH (sans the certification and airflow control) by mounting the CTH main filter and using CTH bags.

In case cost is no issue:
You could well get a CTH and use normal HF-CT 26/36/48 main filters (34€) and SC FIS-CT 26/5 bags (40€/5) for when you don't actually have to deal with H stuff. And should the need arise to have a VAC with a certification you'll have one.

In case you plan to do much drywall stuff (and possibly the Planex) think about a CTx AC, and about adding a CT-VA to save on bags.

 

[Sanderxpander]

I believe the iPulse tech is superior to Festool's AC but I don't have any real world experience with either. I like the mobility and compactness of the Festool range. Bluetooth, smooth hoses and easy hose storage are definite advantages to me. If they weren't I'd most likely go for a Starmix 1635 as I believe it has better suction and tech.

 

[inaum]

Thanks Gregor. I do a fair bit of plasters sanding. I pretty much use Mirka (Ceros/Deos) exclusively for all sanding including plaster / fillter and never had the need to change to Planex or anything of that size.

So coming back to dust extractors - yes, it does need to deal with plaster dust - not all of the time but some of the time. Festool with Autoclean (without fleece bag) has excellent workflow here but this is not what I am after. Again, I am prepared to compromise here with more frequent bag changes if I means improved filtration. I do not however know how much of a compromise it is in reality.

On the other point using CTM or CTL with H filter - that is something of interest to me. If anyone has done that and can share their experience, that would be really helpful. Other point of using CTH with standard (L/M) filter - this is of no interest but thanks for suggestion.

 

[inaum]

I believe the iPulse tech is superior to Festool's AC but I don't have any real world experience with either. I like the mobility and compactness of the Festool range. Bluetooth, smooth hoses and easy hose storage are definite advantages to me. If they weren't I'd most likely go for a Starmix 1635 as I believe it has better suction and tech.

I know what you are saying, Starmix does sound better. But its difficult to say how much of iPulse is better tech and how much is hype. The few youtube videos featuring ipulse were showing off sucking up beer, mud and hot coals. It reminded me of "Will it blend" videos - fun but not helpful. I could find no real reviews of Starmix, I can't really go see a demo, I have never seen one in use, so in reality I am spending £700+ on basis of forum posts and youtube. At least with festool, if its horrible, I got 15 days to send it back. On Starmix - I do believe Metabo is a re-badged Starmix and reviews for that are mixed to positive, not bad but certainly not indicating that its in any way superior tech to other dust extractors.  I also do wonder how I would fare with 1600W and power take off .

 

[kevinculle]

I like the mobility and compactness of the Festool range.

While Festool CT vacs are mobile on a flat floor, compact or luggable they are not.  I have a CT26 and a Nilfisk Aero 21 HEPA that have similar suction, noise levels and performance...the Festool has more features like a tool triggered outlet, variable speed and Bluetooth.  But if I have to lug it up a flight of stairs I'd much rather carry two of the Nilfisks than one CT26 as the CT is bulky, heavy and awkward.  Oh and with Bluetooth it cost about the same as 2 1/2 Nilfisks.

 

[Sanderxpander]

Fair enough, I was talking more in comparison to the Starmix. Add a hose garage to that and it seems pretty unwieldy to me. But I'd also rather carry a midi up the stairs than a 26.

 

[AlexThePalex]

So coming back to dust extractors - yes, it does need to deal with plaster dust - not all of the time but some of the time. Festool with Autoclean (without fleece bag) has excellent workflow here but this is not what I am after. Again, I am prepared to compromise here with more frequent bag changes if I means improved filtration. I do not however know how much of a compromise it is in reality.

I sand a lot of plaster. First thing you have to understand with plaster is that the material fills up the pores of your bags very quickly, often to the point you fill the bag only for 25% till suction is reduced to un unacceptable level. You say cost of the bags is no problem, well, I am sure that when you use those very expensive H bags you'll be going to change your mind very quickly. My CTL Mini bags only cost me €4 a piece, your H bags between €15-20 and you'll find you'll have to replace them just as quickly. 

The point with the whole H classification is to make sure close to NONE of the dust escapes to enter your body, and this includes wearing hazmat suits and respirators. If you're not going to wear special clothing and breathing equipment it is of no use to upgrade from an L or M class vac to H. The L and M vacs already offer very good protection.

Problem with dust collection is also the point of origin, not all dust is going to be caught by the vac, and the amount of dust that escapes right at the source is MUCH bigger than what the vac's filters let slip through. You want to make a difference for your lungs, wear a respirator. I often do, especially with sanding plaster because that stuff is spewed everywhere.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I have a CT-26, Nilfisk Attix 44, and a Starmix 1600-watt vac and they're all great.

The CT-26 is great for general woodworking, and the fleece bags make disposal a breeze. Downside is that the pores of the bags tend to quickly clog with cementitious dust. I'm currently remodeling my home, and keep the CT-26 inside to keep up with the wood dust I create.

The Attix 44 (and 33) are great all-purpose vacs. There is a two-stage filtration system, the first filter has a pulse function that reverses the airflow every 15 seconds to release accumulated dust. Whatever makes it past the first filter then hits a HEPA filter. I started with a Attix 33, then later ordered the larger bin to turn it into a Attix 44, and keep it in my work shop.

Finally, I have a Mafell S-35M, which is a rebranded Starmix ISP 1600 watt vac. The electromagnetic filter cleaning is great, suction is amazing, and the compact size make this my "Go-To" portable job site vac.

 

[Job and Knock]

On Starmix - I do believe Metabo is a re-badged Starmix and reviews for that are mixed to positive, not bad but certainly not indicating that its in any way superior tech to other dust extractors.  I also do wonder how I would fare with 1600W and power take off .

The Metabos are rebrands of Starmix products, as are Spit vacuums. Lots of other firms, especially in the concrete trades, seem to buy from them as well. I have two Metabos, an older ASR2025  fitted with M-class filters and a newer ASR35M. They are very good vacuums and easily outperform equivalent Hiltis (the one brand where I have long term side by side experience). The self-cleaning on the Metabos (Starmixes) is excellent. Both will happily switch and run a Kapex on 110 volt site power (UK). The one thing the ASR35M could do with is a conversion plate, like the older ASR2025 has (as an accessory), which allows you to fix a Systainer on top.

 

[worldburger]

The one thing the ASR35M could do with is a conversion plate, like the older ASR2025 has (as an accessory), which allows you to fix a Systainer on top.

Google "Starmix Smartfix" or "iPulse reloaded". They just updated the vacuums and the tops now have adapters to hold Systainers (facing forwards).  Not sure if the older vac's could have their tops switched out (the tops are molded now to take the adapter).

To OP's inquiry. I was discouraged with the Festool vacuums for much the same reasons as you. I banged my head against a wall trying to understand how there was no vacuum that could do plaster/drywall and concrete. Then I found the iPulse. The videos are completely gimmicky. But the performance is not.

When I got my vacuum, it came with two DIN test certifications for each of the two filters. I'd never seen so many repeating 9's before a "%" symbol.

You have reservations now. Buy it. They will go away.

The only consideration I'd think about after reading your post regarding protecting the filters/bagging...is cyclonic pre-filtering, specifically a dual cyclone like Dyson. To really separate the small and lightweight media (drywall dust, etc) you need small cyclones similar to the ones on his vacuum (current versions).

The replacement cost for the iPulse Hepa filters is no joke, they are $240ish/pair this side of the pond so you're not wrong to consider ways to protect them.

I wouldn't worry much about Starmix's warranty length. It is significantly more likely that you'd break the vacuum due to your actions than something being defective.

Festool produces many phenomenal products. Their vacuum does not seem to fit your needs.

 

[rvieceli]

For anyone thinking about the Metabo ASR 35, Metabo USA is running a buy one get one free promo until 1/31/2019 on the ASR 35 ACP HEPA.

Acme Tools seems to be the only online vendor that is honoring the promo. They also add a $20 handling fee to the transaction. So for $569, you get two vacs and free shipping.

Acme says they are not in stock but should ship in 10-15 business days.
https://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/metabo-us602057800

Ron

 

[Job and Knock]

Not sure if the older vac's could have their tops switched out (the tops are molded now to take the adapter)

They can, but it's a different adaptor plate that Metabo sell, called a Metadepot. Mafell have the same plate available for their older Starmix-sourced vacs. Didn't realise that Starmix had actually got the plate for the ASR35 on the market (I've been waiting a while for one) - it isn't on the GB Starmix distributor's site yet nor is it listed by Metabo UK as yet. Hence my earlier comments.

The replacement cost for the iPulse Hepa filters is no joke, they are $240ish/pair this side of the pond so you're not wrong to consider ways to protect them.

Wow! Polyester (washable) M-class filters are under £80 a pair over here from Starmix UK. The H-class ones are about £120, I believe.

I wouldn't worry much about Starmix's warranty length. It is significantly more likely that you'd break the vacuum due to your actions than something being defective.

I'll second that. I've run a Kapex through mine for more than a year with neither breaking. My older ASR2025 has done more than 5 years of site work including being set-up in a "cutting room" on a big job for the best part of two years. All I've replaced on that has been filters (1 set), hose ends (3 or 4 to date) and clips from the Metadepot plate - oh, and dust bags, load of them. I've seen guys using these for vacuuming wall chasers and they survive that well despite the material being brutal on the filters and bags

 

[RKA]

For anyone thinking about the Metabo ASR 35, Metabo USA is running a buy one get one free promo until 1/31/2019 on the ASR 35 ACP HEPA.

Acme Tools seems to be the only online vendor that is honoring the promo. They also add a $20 handling fee to the transaction. So for $569, you get two vacs and free shipping.

Acme says they are not in stock but should ship in 10-15 business days.
https://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/metabo-us602057800

Ron

For those who might be interested, Metabo is updating this unit for 2019 with 157cfm's.  The older units (130cfm's) are the one's offered in the promotion.  There may also be a low amperage limit on the on board power outlet.  Total draw is stated as 11amps, the vacuum can be turned down to ~5amps, so the balance is available to the power tool.  I have not used these, so I'm not sure if it's overbuilt and will handle high demand tools through the onboard outlet or whether it will trip an internal breaker.  It's still a fantastic deal for a HEPA extractor and if you have the flexibility to power the tool and extractor through two circuits or you only intend to use the tool activation feature with sanders and low draw devices, this is a non-issue. 

 

[mkurtis]

With regard to the ASR 35, further up in this thread Job and Knock stated he successfully runs the Kapex through an ASR 35 on 110V power in the UK. I believe this should be very similar to the US in terms of current draw.

 

[TinyShop]

Not sure if the older vac's could have their tops switched out (the tops are molded now to take the adapter)

They can, but it's a different adaptor plate that Metabo sell, called a Metadepot. Mafell have the same plate available for their older Starmix-sourced vacs. Didn't realise that Starmix had actually got the plate for the ASR35 on the market (I've been waiting a while for one) - it isn't on the GB Starmix distributor's site yet nor is it listed by Metabo UK as yet. Hence my earlier comments.

The replacement cost for the iPulse Hepa filters is no joke, they are $240ish/pair this side of the pond so you're not wrong to consider ways to protect them.

Wow! Polyester (washable) M-class filters are under £80 a pair over here from Starmix UK. The H-class ones are about £120, I believe.

I wouldn't worry much about Starmix's warranty length. It is significantly more likely that you'd break the vacuum due to your actions than something being defective.

I'll second that. I've run a Kapex through mine for more than a year with neither breaking. My older ASR2025 has done more than 5 years of site work including being set-up in a "cutting room" on a big job for the best part of two years. All I've replaced on that has been filters (1 set), hose ends (3 or 4 to date) and clips from the Metadepot plate - oh, and dust bags, load of them. I've seen guys using these for vacuuming wall chasers and they survive that well despite the material being brutal on the filters and bags

Keep an eye on the following thread:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/other...-l-boxx-to-vac/msg568672/?topicseen#msg568672

The I-Pulse compatible OEM sys-dock won't be available until October at least. Also, the Metadepot is not compatible with the I-Pulse vacuums. It was designed for the version that preceded it. In the U.S. Bosch and Mafell sold rebranded versions of those earlier (boxier) vacs. Bosch's involvement is why there are still parts and accessories available (at affordable prices) that play nice with the rebranded i-Pulse vacs. Like hoses, bags, hose fittings, filters, etc. Interestingly enough, I've watched those accessories go from rock-bottom pricing up to levels approaching Festool, all in the two years since I purchased my CS Unitec version. Somebody realized they could make a killing in the aftermarket arena I guess.

 

[Simon O]

After a fair bit of research, and having up to I opted for the new model iPulse L 1635 Top (the handle and accessory storage really does come in handy) - after a couple of long chats with Allsaw, the choice was L class for variable control of suction (though the new M and H class iPulse have two step control), M class filter bags and H class filters. This answered as best as possible my main concern of - where does the dust go that isn't caught by the filters? - so have the most efficient available filters, with the greatest surface area, and have a unit which will not lose suction while its filters are being cleaned. 
Also, something which was counter intuitive to me at the time, was the advice to keep the filter bags in while using the pulse clean technology, from experience of using this method - a) The bags fill completely, b) The filters are kept in better condition. To be honest I'd always been a bit dismayed to see filters completely caked with dust then pulsed, when using PE liners - so this retention of the first barrier to dust particles worked, and is working for me.
Amongst others Metabo and Mafell make extractors which are rebadged Starmix - not sure if their new models are the same in terms of their technical specifications, you'd have to check that out. I reckon if you are based in US, these manufacturers maybe a better choice for you, due to a better presence there than Starmix.
The only drawback I've found with my choice, is the weight of the unit when bag is near to full - moving it up and down scaffolding is quite a task [eek] - on flat areas with the use of the handle obviously no problem in moving it around. Starmix do make smaller models, but the filters can only be pulsed during work breaks, and I wanted something that worked continually. I did ask if Starmix were considering a smaller iPulse model down the line, but apparently not.
If you want some independent test data for these models and Festool/Nilfisk et al, have a look at the TNO site under dust extractor classification.
In one way I think Starmix do themselves a disservice with the 'Can it break' you tube videos, in another way it does clearly show how tough these extractors are - I wonder how other manufacturers models would fare in the same testing environment.
However, if you want some more serious minded independent test data for these models and Festool/Nilfisk et al, have a look at the TNO site under dust extractor classification.

 

[Simon O]

...... Also useful to have a read on TNO site under Dust Extractors - Design Criteria. This I'd say makes a powerful argument for Starmix iPulse design over other approaches.