Michael Kellough
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[member=62623]Simon O[/member] What is TNO site?
Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
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Here you go -http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/dust-extractors/dust-extractor-classification
Like many I found it difficult to find independent testing or even much in the way of reviews about dust extractors - so it was great to locate this independent Dutch research organisation, which has some clear and concise information about a field where there seems to be a fair amount of disinformation.
Like many I found it difficult to find independent testing or even much in the way of reviews about dust extractors - so it was great to locate this independent Dutch research organisation, which has some clear and concise information about a field where there seems to be a fair amount of disinformation.
Simon O said:
Ouch - the dust extractor rankings on this page:
http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/dust-extractors?tested=100345,100344
...(which, among those machines tested, rank Starmix among the best and Festool among the worst in terms of health and safety) are sure to touch off a storm of commentary. Also of interest, is the fact that there are some surprising leading contenders like Makita for instance.
Finally, somewhat curious that they have not yet tested an H-class (HEPA-filters-fitted) version of the i-Pulse (only L-class and M-class from the look of it). Unless I'm overlooking something, I don't see one listed.
Bert Vanderveen said:
Oh, right. I'd forgotten that your H-class filters are basically the same thing, at least as far as exhaust requirements are concerned:
https://www.starmix.de/en/what-is-a-hepa-filter
Somewhere I had got it in my head that there was some difference. Thanks for the clarification.
Also, I forgot that the filters used in M-class machines are the same as those used in H-class machines (and that the only difference between the machines has to do with warning lights and bells and whistles and such). At least that's how I've understood things in the past.
You have to interprete the numbers in the context of the work being done for the individual test: the ratings for the Festools are when being used to extract an angle grinder cutting bricks - while others rating (resulting in higher hours per day) stem from extracting a completely encapsulated tool (which is way easier, compared to a half-open one) working on materials that don't clog bags as badly.TinyShop said:
Hmmm [member=64030]TinyShop[/member] your comment that the rankings on TNO are "sure to touch off a storm of commentary" overlooks the complacency of most users of Festool extraction. Reference the thread here - Re: New products for January 2018 (Europe) - Facelift for 26, 36, 48
« Reply #162 on: April 02, 2018, 05:14 PM »
"Thanks fellow Foggers - some great contributions there.
Particularly loved the "near perfect vac" as "all the basics are taken care of" - reassuring to know there's nothing actually that can be improved with respect to the principal function of these extractors.
Thanks to Peter too, for drawing our attention back to the topic at hand - the new hose garage and Bluetooth.
Improved performance in the efficiency of the extractors seems to be a non starter then, as far as it's users are concerned. Perhaps a representative of Festool could comment? - Is the airflow improved? Have there been any changes in the design of the new extractors which improve the efficiency of the dust collection? Is the exhausted air cleaner?
Gotta love the new hose though."
[member=53905]Gregor[/member] the TNO site makes it very clear what it's testing regime was for the various extractors read - Dust Extractor Classification, here -http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/dust-extractors/dust-extractor-classification
it would be a waste of time if there wasn't a standardised test - seems so, no? The details for the test are clearly stated.
You might not cut bricks or concrete, but there a lot of us who do, and in my view these sorts of applications are an excellent test of an extractors capabilities - given the volume, velocity and nature of the materials being extracted.
The figures given for duration of operation are more than just a means of ranking extractors they illustrate how long a set up can be safely operated before a workplace becomes compromised and the users health is affected -
"The label shows the total “responsible operating time” in hours – between one and eight – per eight-hour working day. That is the length of the time for which the system can be operated without exceeding the statutory occupational exposure limits for hazardous substances such as crystalline silica and hardwood dust, as measured in the “employee inhalation zone”."
This is pertinent to everyone who uses tools which create dust, no matter what the type of dust or the application - and certainly helps in making a more informed choice of extractor.
I think most people who routinely use Festool extraction assume with [member=8955]Coen[/member] in the thread 'New products for January 2018 (Europe)....'thread-
"Nah, once all the basics are taken care off, people will find other "wants" and so we end up with a near perfect vac where the biggest thing to about was apparently the hose."
So given that premise, it's pretty unlikely there's going to be a storm of commentary. Let's have a look though - it's been roughly a month since TinyShop's comment about the TNO ratings for Festool extractors
« Reply #162 on: April 02, 2018, 05:14 PM »
"Thanks fellow Foggers - some great contributions there.
Particularly loved the "near perfect vac" as "all the basics are taken care of" - reassuring to know there's nothing actually that can be improved with respect to the principal function of these extractors.
Thanks to Peter too, for drawing our attention back to the topic at hand - the new hose garage and Bluetooth.
Improved performance in the efficiency of the extractors seems to be a non starter then, as far as it's users are concerned. Perhaps a representative of Festool could comment? - Is the airflow improved? Have there been any changes in the design of the new extractors which improve the efficiency of the dust collection? Is the exhausted air cleaner?
Gotta love the new hose though."
[member=53905]Gregor[/member] the TNO site makes it very clear what it's testing regime was for the various extractors read - Dust Extractor Classification, here -http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/dust-extractors/dust-extractor-classification
it would be a waste of time if there wasn't a standardised test - seems so, no? The details for the test are clearly stated.
You might not cut bricks or concrete, but there a lot of us who do, and in my view these sorts of applications are an excellent test of an extractors capabilities - given the volume, velocity and nature of the materials being extracted.
The figures given for duration of operation are more than just a means of ranking extractors they illustrate how long a set up can be safely operated before a workplace becomes compromised and the users health is affected -
"The label shows the total “responsible operating time” in hours – between one and eight – per eight-hour working day. That is the length of the time for which the system can be operated without exceeding the statutory occupational exposure limits for hazardous substances such as crystalline silica and hardwood dust, as measured in the “employee inhalation zone”."
This is pertinent to everyone who uses tools which create dust, no matter what the type of dust or the application - and certainly helps in making a more informed choice of extractor.
I think most people who routinely use Festool extraction assume with [member=8955]Coen[/member] in the thread 'New products for January 2018 (Europe)....'thread-
"Nah, once all the basics are taken care off, people will find other "wants" and so we end up with a near perfect vac where the biggest thing to about was apparently the hose."
So given that premise, it's pretty unlikely there's going to be a storm of commentary. Let's have a look though - it's been roughly a month since TinyShop's comment about the TNO ratings for Festool extractors
TinyShop said:
Sanderxpander
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TNO doesn't go around guessing for reasons, they just rate performance. And unless you intend to improve the vac yourself, performance (and features) is really what matters.
demographic
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I've found the Hilti extractor to be pretty good but its big and numb to move around, the Makita one I used just didn't let me use much power through its socket.
Got a Festool CTM which I think is US equivelebt to HEPA? Anyway, its got good suction and all that but for me one massive plus is that I can use it to cart a stack of boxes about on any half decent flat site.
Being able to fasten systainers on top means one or even two less journeys to the van and less time wasted not actually working.
If you leave all your tools on site at the end of the day or in a workshop this likely wont matter but I unload in the morning and load my tools back in the van at the end of the day and it makes a huge difference to me.
Got a Festool CTM which I think is US equivelebt to HEPA? Anyway, its got good suction and all that but for me one massive plus is that I can use it to cart a stack of boxes about on any half decent flat site.
Being able to fasten systainers on top means one or even two less journeys to the van and less time wasted not actually working.
If you leave all your tools on site at the end of the day or in a workshop this likely wont matter but I unload in the morning and load my tools back in the van at the end of the day and it makes a huge difference to me.
Sanderxpander
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FWIW Starmix has a systainer dock too.
six-point socket II
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Hi,
I've spent quite some time on the TNO site and it leaves me with more questions than answers and I will go as far as questioning some of the presented results/"classifications".
It has been mentioned already:
I took the liberty of highlighting one of the interesting parts.
But it gets more interesting.
And then speaking of questionable:
Taking a cordless L-Class dust extractor (which is not permitted for silica dust when used commercially) and claiming it is totally OK to use this day in day out. Test claims 2000 holes/day. ->http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/tools/bosch-vacuum-cleaner-gas-18v-10-and-drills
Or to stay with Festool:
Taking the L-Class dust extractor CTL-SYS combined with OSC 18 on Meranti hard wood (which dust is actually proven to be cancerous, so again an M-Class extractor would be needed in a commercial setting) and claiming it is totally OK to use this day in day out. ->http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/t...l-osc-400-with-festool-vacuum-cleaner-ctl-sys
And now I'm going out on a limb here, given they use only stock images - not one picture showing their test area/setup i.e. - I assume none of this has been actually tested.
And they are certainly not even close to be any kind of authority. It looks to me just like another useless seal/logo.
Edit: All just computer generated graphics:
http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/innovation/tno-worst-case-room
http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/innovation/tno-design-tools
Getting there. Here's the shroud.http://www.stofvrijwerken.tno.nl/in...nnovaties/stofafzuiging-op-handgereedschappen
After seeing this, I actually have no further questions. If you know the shrouds produced by Bosch, Hilti ...
And another interesting claim in plain sight:
They claim they are working WITH Hilti, Makita, Bosch, DeWalt, Festool and have brought innovative dust-free tools to the market.
I will wholeheartedly apologize if Hilti, Makita, Bosch, DeWalt and/or Festool confirm they are working with TNO.
Not quite convinced but again, interesting:
https://www.festo.com/group/en/cms/10410.htm
Kind regards,
Oliver
I've spent quite some time on the TNO site and it leaves me with more questions than answers and I will go as far as questioning some of the presented results/"classifications".
It has been mentioned already:
I took the liberty of highlighting one of the interesting parts.
But it gets more interesting.
And then speaking of questionable:
Taking a cordless L-Class dust extractor (which is not permitted for silica dust when used commercially) and claiming it is totally OK to use this day in day out. Test claims 2000 holes/day. ->http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/tools/bosch-vacuum-cleaner-gas-18v-10-and-drills
Or to stay with Festool:
Taking the L-Class dust extractor CTL-SYS combined with OSC 18 on Meranti hard wood (which dust is actually proven to be cancerous, so again an M-Class extractor would be needed in a commercial setting) and claiming it is totally OK to use this day in day out. ->http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/t...l-osc-400-with-festool-vacuum-cleaner-ctl-sys
And now I'm going out on a limb here, given they use only stock images - not one picture showing their test area/setup i.e. - I assume none of this has been actually tested.
And they are certainly not even close to be any kind of authority. It looks to me just like another useless seal/logo.
Edit: All just computer generated graphics:
http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/innovation/tno-worst-case-room
http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/innovation/tno-design-tools
Getting there. Here's the shroud.http://www.stofvrijwerken.tno.nl/in...nnovaties/stofafzuiging-op-handgereedschappen
After seeing this, I actually have no further questions. If you know the shrouds produced by Bosch, Hilti ...
And another interesting claim in plain sight:
They claim they are working WITH Hilti, Makita, Bosch, DeWalt, Festool and have brought innovative dust-free tools to the market.
I will wholeheartedly apologize if Hilti, Makita, Bosch, DeWalt and/or Festool confirm they are working with TNO.
Not quite convinced but again, interesting:
https://www.festo.com/group/en/cms/10410.htm
Kind regards,
Oliver
AlexThePalex
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six-point socket II said:
But they actually are, they are a very highly regarded independent research, testing and development organisation. They have close ties with regulating government departments en with the Delft University of Technology, Hollands highest technology education. And of course with leading technology companies in Holland and Germany.
They have already existed for many decades and they do many product tests in all kinds of fields. They do not only test items, they also actively develop new solutions, mostly in the field of health and safety.
six-point socket II said:
I agree with you their explanation of their tests is as minimal as you can get. I would also like to read more about it.
But .... they are not a tool magazine trying to get readers interested. They are more geared towards business and industry. A TNO certificate is highly regarded by companies.
You can rest assured that if they test something it is done one hundred times more scientifically sound than any magazine or website author could even dream to achieve. They have entire laboratories dedicated to testing. They have their own engineers that make test equipment and develop new solutions.
Like this dust shroud they mention. I guess you can't read Dutch but they mention they developed dozens of prototypes of dust shrouds for tools in cooperation with companies like Hilti, Makita, Bosch, DeWalt, Festool and others, some of which were subsequently brought to market.
six-point socket II said:
They do not talk about European regulations for the trades. The Dutch government (in conjunction with the EU) sets an amount of dust you can inhale on a day while working, which is regarded safe. If you stay under the limit you're safe, if you inhale more your health is in danger on the short or long run.
While the EU made M-class vacs mandatory for professionals, that doesn't mean an L-class vac can work so good you would still stay under the safety limit working with it all day. And that is all what they tested. The amount of dust you're exposed to as a user.
And it is not that difficult to see in this particular test combination of vac and drill. Putting an angle grinder on stone generates quite a bit more airborn dust than simply drilling a hole with a dust shroud.
six-point socket II
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Thank you for clarifying that Alex, so I stand - partly - corrected.
I can read Dutch, see the last part of my previous post, I understand they claim to work with said companies. From the impressions I got I found that very hard to believe - but I will believe you, if you say that's the way it is.
I understand that - but does their certification supersede EU regulations on worksites? If not, what is the actual benefit? (Except for knowing that it is safe - but still not permitted?)
That's one of the key factors that lead me to believe it's completely bogus in first place, by the way.
Like I said, I believe you when you say they are legit - but I think they should give their website and presenting of results a major overhaul to reflect that.
When they have the facilities, they could publish real pictures as a first step. Would give first time readers/visitors, who have never heard of them like me, a better idea of who they apparently are.
I too would like to read more, especially since it is not a magazine.
So, here TNO, I wholeheartedly apologize!
Kind regards,
Oliver
I can read Dutch, see the last part of my previous post, I understand they claim to work with said companies. From the impressions I got I found that very hard to believe - but I will believe you, if you say that's the way it is.
Alex said:
I understand that - but does their certification supersede EU regulations on worksites? If not, what is the actual benefit? (Except for knowing that it is safe - but still not permitted?)
That's one of the key factors that lead me to believe it's completely bogus in first place, by the way.
Like I said, I believe you when you say they are legit - but I think they should give their website and presenting of results a major overhaul to reflect that.
When they have the facilities, they could publish real pictures as a first step. Would give first time readers/visitors, who have never heard of them like me, a better idea of who they apparently are.
I too would like to read more, especially since it is not a magazine.
So, here TNO, I wholeheartedly apologize!
Kind regards,
Oliver
Sanderxpander
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Organisation_for_Applied_Scientific_Research
It doesn't say a whole lot about these tests but it gives some indication of what kind of organization it is and how they are funded.
It doesn't say a whole lot about these tests but it gives some indication of what kind of organization it is and how they are funded.
six-point socket II
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Thanks for sharing, hadn't looked for that! Interesting!
Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver