C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills

[pingvinlakrits]

Panasonic has been a brand that I for one did not associate with high quality power drills...
...Matshushita is a huge company though and they sure have the finances to back it up.

Panasonic users over here are very pleased with their machines.

There are quite a few really good power drills out there today; the current Makitas, the Hitachis, the Panasonics and the Festool C12. I had a blue Bosch which was great but too heavy. Some swear by their DeWalts but to me they are heavy and sluggish and lack refinement. Today you can have a fast charging power drill which is lightweight, ergonomic and powerful with an assist light to boot. The competition is quite stiff and that is great.

I stick by my previous complaints and I feel that Festool need to improve their power drills to stay on top of the game, right now they are just staying IN the game.  They are pricey and at the moment they are behind the competition in technology and more importantly: ergonomics. I like my C12, but there are so many power drills out there that are much more comfortable to operate and just the other day when I was moving some shelves - using that ingenious angle chuck - but the Makita was much more convenient to hold. The C12 is compact but boxy/square and the trigger and handle need a serious work over.
 

 

[Warrior]

[quote
what we really need is a impact drill c12 with a clutch.
[/quote]
  I just don't get the need or want of a clutch with an impact driver.  The clutch is your finger! Less pull on the trigger = less power output from the motor. I use a makita 18v Lion impact daily and have no problems what soever driving the smallest screws to 1/2" lags. I also use it to drive pocket screws.

Eiji

 

[nickao]

People want the clutch because of snapping the screw heads off. By the time you take your finger off the trigger the screw head can already be snapped. It happens all the time. The clutch would just kick in at the last possible millisecond before the screw would snap.

Nickao

 

[Michael Kellough]

People want the clutch because of snapping the screw heads off. By the time you take your finger off the trigger the screw head can already be snapped. It happens all the time. The clutch would just kick in at the last possible millisecond before the screw would snap.

Nickao

And how would it know when that was about to occur?  ;D

 

[Warrior]

People want the clutch because of snapping the screw heads off. By the time you take your finger off the trigger the screw head can already be snapped. It happens all the time. The clutch would just kick in at the last possible millisecond before the screw would snap.

Nickao

I have maybe snapped 10 screws and that was within the first few months of using an impact driver. Once I got used to the power it has and the nearly infinite control I have of that power I havent broken another. That and I alway predrill my holes with the exception of pocket screw holes and sometimes in framing. If you use top quality pocket screws they wont break. When using the impact driver for pocket joinery I watch the joint snug up and let go of the trigger.  The second screw in a already snug joint I just listen for about 3 impacts and let go of the trigger. For screws in hardware and such I watch the screw and slow the rate of driving when the screw is almost seated. Then as the screw snugs up the hardware I let go of the trigger.  Oh so simple and works every time. IMHO a clutch on an impact is not neccessary.

Eiji

 

[Michael Kellough]

People want the clutch because of snapping the screw heads off. By the time you take your finger off the trigger the screw head can already be snapped. It happens all the time. The clutch would just kick in at the last possible millisecond before the screw would snap.

Nickao

I have maybe snapped 10 screws and that was within the first few months of using an impact driver. Once I got used to the power it has and the nearly infinite control I have of that power I havent broken another. That and I alway predrill my holes with the exception of pocket screw holes and sometimes in framing. If you use top quality pocket screws they wont break. When using the impact driver for pocket joinery I watch the joint snug up and let go of the trigger.  The second screw in a already snug joint I just listen for about 3 impacts and let go of the trigger. For screws in hardware and such I watch the screw and slow the rate of driving when the screw is almost seated. Then as the screw snugs up the hardware I let go of the trigger.  Oh so simple and works every time. IMHO a clutch on an impact is not neccessary.

Eiji

That's cheating  ;D

Actually one of my favorite features of impact drivers is the high rpm and quick change chuck that makes drilling pilot holes painless. When an appropriate drill bit is not around you can just run the screw in reverse at full speed and pulverize a pilot hole, or at least reduce the amount of torque wasted by the top piece of wood so there is little chance of popping the head.

 

[nickao]

Eiji F  I am just stating the reason people want a clutch. You could do the same exact thing you are stating with a cordless drill too.
People want everything easy, press the button down, hold it and the drill takes control. It spins, stops and the bolt or screw is at the perfect depth and thats it. That is where these cordless are heading. And of course making the morning coffee would be useful also.

Also remember, some finger trigger speed controls suck.

I have no clutch and I do not miss it, but I would not say it is not necessary, as someone wants it. I know a lot of guys that say there is no need for a table saw or I have a biscuit joiner there is no need for a domino. Until they made the Domino and showed us what it could  I am sure people scoffed at the idea.

Who knows maybe a clutched impact gun will be the coolest thing out there. I have never noticed or tried one. I love my Panasonic.

Nick

 

[Forrest Anderson]

  I just don't get the need or want of a clutch with an impact driver.  The clutch is your finger! Less pull on the trigger = less power output from the motor.

Using that reasoning, I presume you don't want the clutch on your cordless drill/driver either, and would really prefer to own a cordless drill without one?

Forrest

 

[Warrior]

  I just don't get the need or want of a clutch with an impact driver.  The clutch is your finger! Less pull on the trigger = less power output from the motor.

Using that reasoning, I presume you don't want the clutch on your cordless drill/driver either, and would really prefer to own a cordless drill without one?

Forrest

Forrest,
Two different animals. Of course a drill needs the clutch when driving screws. An impact driver, IF you know how to use it, does not.

MY case is that when you adjust the trigger on an impact driver it effectively is a clutch since the power/torque is lessened. On a drill the torque does not change. Only the speed of rotation changes.

Eiji

 

[Steve Jones]

it seems to me that what the impact driver really needs is that little knob on the trigger that you used to see on variable speed drills, it makes an adjustable stop to limit the speed (or an an impact driver the torque) that way you could pre-set the torque for various screws/materials and would be (it seems to me) a cheap addition to add.

Of course if the manufacturer wanted to be really clever, the stop itself would be spring loaded, insteat of a solid stop, it would simply increase the resistance at that point, but you could still override the setting by more pressure with the trigger finger. Handy since whenever I've used a driver with a clutch there was always one screw that would not seat tight.

 

[nickao]

Steve, as the tools get more "smart" technology I think what you are describing will come to pass. With the torque and speed self adjusting.

Nickao

 

[Michael Kellough]

Steve, as the tools get more "smart" technology I think what you are describing will come to pass. With the torque and speed self adjusting.

Nickao

Crossed lasers will read the distance from the rim of the screw to the surface of the wood and slow the speed down for the last mm. 

 

[Steve Jones]

by then we'll just watch the house robot do the work

(about which time you can start calling me Ned Ludd)

 

[merklebob]

no need for the knob,  they have varaible triggers.  what they need is  a clutch like all good drill have.  as posted earlier the only impact was a d/w 10yr ago.

 

[Mirko]

Everyone,

There are better ways to use a hole saw, If you oscillate the cut from side to side you will get a much cooler cut, furthermore the center plug is cut smaller if done this way. Also, the oscillations will cut a larger hole, this produces more clearance for the OD on the hole saw. You want to cut with only a few teeth compared to all at once,
Joe is generating extreme heat and killing the teeth on the saw. The heat melts down resin, or glue used to make most ply, mdf and gums up the teeth.

If Joe where to try this he could cut through that board with ease.

The other problem associated with cutting with the teeth parallel to the wood being cut, is the hole is a tight fit and the hole saw binds then jams, when this happens the drill requires extreme torque to keep moving.

My record so far is 8, 2" holes cut in 3/4 mdf with G2S post form laminate, with a single C12 battery.

Mirko

 

[Mike_Chrest]

Eiji,
  You must have more talented helpers than I do. I gave an impact driver to my helper and he stripped out an amazing number of pocket screws before I stopped him Drills with clutches are good things. Idiot proof. I like Milwaukee's little pocket driver. Use the Makita compact Li Ion set for everything else. I keep drooling over the C12 chucks, if they cut the price in half I would go for it.

Mike

 

[Michael Kellough]

Everyone,

There are better ways to use a hole saw, If you oscillate the cut from side to side you will get a much cooler cut, furthermore the center plug is cut smaller if done this way. Also, the oscillations will cut a larger hole, this produces more clearance for the OD on the hole saw. You want to cut with only a few teeth compared to all at once,
Joe is generating extreme heat and killing the teeth on the saw. The heat melts down resin, or glue used to make most ply, mdf and gums up the teeth.

If Joe where to try this he could cut through that board with ease.

The other problem associated with cutting with the teeth parallel to the wood being cut, is the hole is a tight fit and the hole saw binds then jams, when this happens the drill requires extreme torque to keep moving.

My record so far is 8, 2" holes cut in 3/4 mdf with G2S post form laminate, with a single C12 battery.

Mirko

How could drilling a hole with a hole saw be so complicated? 

I'll add a little more detail to explain why the saw needs to be tilted and why if it isn't it jambs and burns.

It's the gullets. Multi toothed cutting tools (saws, drill bits, even sand paper) have gullets between the teeth. When the teeth scrape the work the debris gets stuffed into the gullets. If it doesn't get cleared out the teeth can't get into the work and progress stops. Pushing harder just increases friction. Everyone knows this from drilling holes in resinous woods even though the bit has relatively big long gullets.

The gullets on a traditional saw are in and out of the work every stroke so the gullets can clear. Maybe it was a good idea to bend a saw into a circle and add a mandrel but they should have modified the gullets  right away. To be fair, hole saws were probably only meant for sheet metal or metal clad doors. Simply using the drill in a horizontal orientation helps the debris clear out. Better designs are available for a much higher price.

 

[Warrior]

Eiji,
  You must have more talented helpers than I do. I gave an impact driver to my helper and he stripped out an amazing number of pocket screws before I stopped him Drills with clutches are good things. Idiot proof. I like Milwaukee's little pocket driver. Use the Makita compact Li Ion set for everything else. I keep drooling over the C12 chucks, if they cut the price in half I would go for it.

Mike

I dont have any helpers anymore. I gave myself a raise in Feb. But when I did, a little instruction on how to use the impact properly was all that was needed.

i have been thinking about my posts on this thread and have realized that I have been prejudiced against the C12. I had read some of  the reviews before but still caried this prejudice here. The cause of the prejudices against the C12 was my belief that the use of NiMH batteries is outdated and the fact that the prices of cordless tools here are so low compared with the C12.

I still think that the batteries are outdated, but now realise that the C12 is very different from any other cordless drill out there. i have re-read Rick Christopherson's technical review of the C12's motor technology. Another review states that Festool took one C12 and drove 800,000 screws then took the the c12 apart and found no evidence of wear in the motor or gear system!Festool used this to claim the first 1,000,000 screw cordless drill. Incredible! This is not the disposable cordless we are used to and should be considered a lifetime tool. The price of the C12 now makes a little more sense. I have spent enough money on cordless drills to have been able to buy at least 3  C12 drill sets yet just have one drill/impact set still working.

I have changed my mind and now believe the C12 and all the accessories are indeed worth the price and a good investment for  the professional.

Eiji

 

[paul_david_thomas]

I had a little look at the video and had to laugh, as I was doing exactly that through 25mm MDF for my MFT/3 Extension leaf... And you all thought it was a silly experiment... I have to admit, after 20 holes I thought my life had sunk to it's lowest level and that I would soon start talking to the furniture

 

[SPARKY FROM WINNIPEG]

Eiji,
  You must have more talented helpers than I do. I gave an impact driver to my helper and he stripped out an amazing number of pocket screws before I stopped him Drills with clutches are good things. Idiot proof. I like Milwaukee's little pocket driver. Use the Makita compact Li Ion set for everything else. I keep drooling over the C12 chucks, if they cut the price in half I would go for it.

Mike

I dont have any helpers anymore. I gave myself a raise in Feb. But when I did, a little instruction on how to use the impact properly was all that was needed.

i have been thinking about my posts on this thread and have realized that I have been prejudiced against the C12. I had read some of  the reviews before but still caried this prejudice here. The cause of the prejudices against the C12 was my belief that the use of NiMH batteries is outdated and the fact that the prices of cordless tools here are so low compared with the C12.

I still think that the batteries are outdated, but now realise that the C12 is very different from any other cordless drill out there. i have re-read Rick Christopherson's technical review of the C12's motor technology. Another review states that Festool took one C12 and drove 800,000 screws then took the the c12 apart and found no evidence of wear in the motor or gear system!Festool used this to claim the first 1,000,000 screw cordless drill. Incredible! This is not the disposable cordless we are used to and should be considered a lifetime tool. The price of the C12 now makes a little more sense. I have spent enough money on cordless drills to have been able to buy at least 3  C12 drill sets yet just have one drill/impact set still working.

I have changed my mind and now believe the C12 and all the accessories are indeed worth the price and a good investment for  the professional.

Eiji

I agree the tool may last a lifetime but not the batteries. Being a contractor I have gone thru many cordless tools over the years, and usually find it cheaper to buy a kit then to just buy batteries.