Changing the overlay on cabinet doors when refacing cabinets.

[Packard]

I am in the process of refacing my kitchen cabinets.  The original cabinets are “honey oak”, and look quite old fashioned. 

In addition to the color looking old, the 1990s face frame cabinets showed a lot of face frame.  More modern versions hide far more of the face frame with more generous overlays or narrower face frames.

My cabinets had 1/2” overlay (Amerock) hinges.  I am using 1” overlay.  So my doors are covering 1/2” more face frame all around.

Most of the issues I have faced have to do with the doors opening too wide and hitting a wall or adjacent cabinet.  I tried the Blum press in hinge limiters, but in a couple of instances that was not sufficient.  I had to add bumpers.

This morning I was test fitting doors above the refrigerator.  To make the cabinet fit, the installer cut away all or most of the face frame that extends past the cabinet box. 

The door was within the thickness of a piece of paper from rubbing on the wall. 

I could have sliced off a little of the door, but that would come very close to the cup for the hinges. 

I could have cut a chamfer.  That would solve the problem with no structural issues.

I settled on a 1/4” radius on the front of the hinge side of the door.  Enough clearance, and it seems less noticeable than a chamfer. 

Would I recommend the change from 1/2” to 1” overlay considering the problems?

Whenever I see a kitchen with painted cabinets, the amount of exposed face frame tells me immediately if it were a re-paint or if the cabinets were bought painted. 

So, for me, yes.  I think it is worth it.  I still have one wall left to do.  I will post some images.

 

[gunnyr]

Funny, I've been looking at my cabinets wondering what changing the overlay might look like.  I wonder about difficulties with the top and bottom mostly, and of course the drawer fronts.  Glad to see someone else thinks like I do. 

Really leaning towards a whole new kitchen at this point.  I have the tools and skills to build my own but the value seems to suggest I buy a mid/upper grade and simply install them myself.  I really don't need any custom sizes, my home is not custom and the walls and openings were designed around common cabinet sizes.

 

[xedos]

From the Soapbox:

With frameless / euro cabinetry, one doesn't need to worry about the amount of overlay or which hinge to select when changing doors.    And the fulloverlay  looks better from the get go.

 

[Packard]

From the Soapbox:

With frameless / euro cabinetry, one doesn't need to worry about the amount of overlay or which hinge to select when changing doors.    And the fulloverlay  looks better from the get go.

“Looks better…” is a matter of taste.  And it seems that you are in the minority.
https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/magazine/fdmc-magazine/exclusive-annual-cabinet-trends-survey#

About 83 percent of cabinets seen at IBS and KBIS had face frame construction, with about 7 percent using face frame with full overlay. Frameless only accounted for about 10 percent, and a few displays had inset doors.

That being said, I am switching to frameless because it allows me to build and finish in the shop and assemble on site.  Something that would be more difficult with face frame cabinets.

 

[tjbnwi]

First euro style I’ve done were the last 3 jobs. Until then all our builds were face frame, the vast majority of those are inset.

I much prefer face frames. 

Tom

 

[Packard]

My parents’ home came with face frame boxes, but with lipped doors and drawers.  I still see some furniture with lipped drawers.  But the lipped doors seem to have disappeared. 

What was the advance of that type of door and why did it vanish from the scene?

I guess these are called “partial inset doors”.  This is a clearer image.

 

[tjbnwi]

I believe the partial inset design was driven by the hinge. It allowed the barrels to be part of the design. I believe it is Blum that makes a euro hinge that replaces the barrel type hinge.

We had a customer that wanted the barrel hinge look with the advantages of the euro style hinge. These are a “fake barrel”.

[attachimg=1]

Tom

 

[peter halle]

And then there are this type.  I have these on my first home: 

View attachment 1

At that time (1993) the old-time cabinet shop who built the cabinets wasn't familiar with eurostyle hardware and these were an economical solution that just required a dado blade setup.  In heavy usage we only managed to wear out three hinges in 28 years, and that was the springs breaking.  Mine are the partial lipped models.

Here is a link which has links to documentation: 

https://www.hardwaresource.com/6-youngdale-hinge.html?variant_id=54593&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwvpCkBhB4EiwAujULMgYfXuMTzcY0RN1M85pvKLVHfK6wPLh9PlwSPbdkT48C8fAtkFRoJhoCTUgQAvD_BwE

Peter

 

[Crazyraceguy]

It is somewhat different because we do very little residential work, but the shop where I work produces hundred of frameless cabinets every week. They go into commercial buildings; libraries, hospitals, shipping terminals, business offices, etc. Virtually all of them have a breakroom/kitchen, so it relates at least a little. The biggest percentage are full overlay flat slab with HPL or veneer, though there are some with 5 knuckle "institutional" hinges. Occasionally, I get frame and panel doors, sometimes hardwood and stained, others MDF and painted.
20 years ago, the white epoxy 3/4 extension drawer guides were the standard, with full-extension as an optional upgrade. Today, those are the standard. I haven't seen a white epoxy guide in years.
When I first started Salice was the stock hinge, but that has changed over to Blum. Others pop up as specified by the architect, when needed, sometimes stainless steel is required.

 

[xedos]

From the Soapbox:

With frameless / euro cabinetry, one doesn't need to worry about the amount of overlay or which hinge to select when changing doors.    And the fulloverlay  looks better from the get go.

“Looks better…” is a matter of taste.  And it seems that you are in the minority.
https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/magazine/fdmc-magazine/exclusive-annual-cabinet-trends-survey#

About 83 percent of cabinets seen at IBS and KBIS had face frame construction, with about 7 percent using face frame with full overlay. Frameless only accounted for about 10 percent, and a few displays had inset doors.

That being said, I am switching to frameless because it allows me to build and finish in the shop and assemble on site.  Something that would be more difficult with face frame cabinets.

Pack - that link is practically worthless [eek]

first, that piece is over a DECADE old.
2nd, it only took data for companies that displayed at KBIS/IBS - not a lot of cabinet manuf. display there.
3rd,  the straw poll didn't ask what people "preferred" only pointed out what vendors displayed.  Something entirely different.
4th, I think American co.'s still make more framed cabinets than frameless , but that's not necessarily a reflection of what people think "looks" best or even want.  Most cabinet sales are to people who have no idea or even care what type of cabinet construction they have.
5th - I could very well be in the minority- there's no accounting for taste.  I'm with Tom  - give me inset (beaded inset specifically) but not everyone that like that look can or wants to afford that.

 

[Packard]

In case anyone wants to increase the overlay on a re-face on face frame cabinets, this is the solution I came up with to deal with instances where there was insufficient face frame width.  That only occurred at the end of a run of cabinets where the installer trimmed the final face frame. 

The first image shows where I uses a round over bit in my router to gain some clearance.  A chamfer would have worked also, but the twin highlights of the chamfer would be a giveaway. 

The second photo shows that door installed.  It is nearly impossible to spot the radius unless you are looking at the profile.

 

[waho6o9]

I like flush face frame doors.
View attachment 1

 

[afish]

Not only do I prefer the look of frameless which I know is subjective there are also some positives that have not been mentioned.
1. Easier cleaning. Frameless cabinets have less nooks and crannies on the interior of the cabinet. which making wiping out the inside much easier. Plus face frame cabs typically have a lip that is slightly higher than the bottom of the cabinet which further complicates a good cleaning job.  Also the outside of the frameless cabs are easier to clean.
2. Less wasted space not only do you typically have 3/8-1/2 of wasted space between every pair of boxes. This might not sound like a lot but if you start adding up all the wasted space between every cabinet it does add up.  Plus the drawers end up being a couple inches narrower on top of that. That adds up really fast and results in a lot of wasted storage space. 

Im not sure about everyone else but I never seem to have enough cabinet space so wasting it on dead space annoys me.  When I built my cabinets I almost grouped them together instead in banks of 3 or 4 together instead of building each cabinet individually just to save the space of the extra gables(sides) which also adds up.  If you can save 4 gables on a row of cabs @ .75 per gable thats an extra 3" of drawer storage times 3 or 4 drawers that's about an extra 1.5 square feet in total on one row of cabinets by just saving 4 gables.