Church Entrance

[jmbfestool]

IMHO, I would replace it and redesign (not drastically) it so that those beams that are touching the cement posts are clear of standing water/moisture and more resistant to rot.

Even if you patch it you will never be happy with it, you will still incur the wrath of the local historical preservation board or whom ever has their eye on this structure and the Vicar will go ahead and hire someone else to repair your work.

It's a nice project, I hope you get it.
Tim

Yes I agree I did mention it to the vicar.  Their is some sort of water proof membrane between the wood and stone the problem is water will jst run between the two so it wont be doing a very good job any way.    I was thinking of putting a groove all round the bottom like 10 mm up  and then putting lead around to bottom into the groove?  OR maybe covering the entire bottom and 5/10 mm up the side with some sort of tar or tanking kinda paint/fibre glass?  Also I know you dont treat the wood but I was thinking of doing the joints treat the insides of the joints tenons mortises with something as Guy Ashley, John said no glue can be used so water can get inside the joints like it has done and rot the tenons.

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

Chainsaw [eek], dont go there!!!!!!! If you cut into it with a chain saw you have no idea of the forces tied up in the structure and you could end up binding on the chain and get kick back. DONT GO THERE. Chain saws should be used by trained and certificated users. Seen some terrible injuries.
Sharp Handsaw, Big Sharp Chisels , Bloody Big Maul ,Auger and some wedges should do it. Plus patience. As Guy sugested bit of research will help.
If you are feeling ambitious you cold try an arrow scarf or a double fish tail. both joints used for this type of repair(on upright). ( arrow scarf was used for footing arrow shafts, to get them to the standard cloth yard and help penetrate plate armour)

As Guy says no glue

Must get out more [big grin]

John

Edit, Sorry Guy you said chain mortiser, not chain saw, bit over kill but JMB does like his tools [big grin]

Yes! You guys should not mentioned power tools to me!  Sayin I need this type of powertool to do the job makes me wanna buy it! Cant help my self! Dangerous man just mention hand tools ill be okay not a hand tool type of person so no risk of me going out to buy one unless I have no choice! lol

Well I would like to be able to do everything at home and just turn up with two large ready made support which I can simply slide under into position really sounds easy but I know it wont be lol!

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

Well, repair or replace or looks like a very cool project, one that i would love to get my teeth into.  Just dont price it too cheap.  Time can run away on you on a job like this.

I think if you listen to what John & Guy tell you then you wont go far wrong.

Hope you got flowers to go with that dinner 

Woodguy.

Haahaa! No I aint gotta save money for Festool tools  [tongue]  paid for the Dinner like! lol  I wont price it to cheap!  Its near where I live so I would of liked it to be completely replaced as it will be seen by every one around my area get me know innit!  The guy I think who recommended me told the Vicar to let me know I can use his work shop to make the stuff if I wanted!  So thats sound! going to go round his place to see what he thinks and says about this job and to say thank you for offering me to let me use his work shop!

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

I have time now! I have got rid of my missus now! Shes all full up and tired! lol  So I have just done  a quick drawing on sketch up!

I had a close look and from what I can see I think thats how the vertical is joined to the horizontal piece. 

The lower section which I have done in a different colour greenish is the section I want to replace and told the Vicar and he said thats fine. 

The upper part is what I wanna leave alone and I have done that in the brownish colour.  As you can see the joint is out of proportion the upright has a large notch remove and not much timber left!  I was thinkin/Hoping where I have in the drawing below changed from greenish to brownish I could cut and join my new section! The curve I was hoping would help to support the top section by not allow ing it to tip!  Maybe putting a loose tenon or something between the new vertical and the old horizontal?  I say a loose is cus I dont know how easy it will be to lift the top section to get it over a normal tenon. 

Any opinions advice tips are very welcome! I am only learning! I have worked with oak and done abit of bashing but for a company which always seems to be easier as they do the thinking for ya! lol

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This image shows n idea I have to prolong to prevent future rotting.  I was thinking I could fold lead round underneath into the groove then lead mate or do something else lol? dont know!
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JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

Close up of current joint!

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[jmbfestool]

JMB

Awesome job! I have done work for churches in the past and despite the fact that the Church of England is the biggest landowner in the UK and richer than the Monarchy they are as tight as a ducks anus!

My experience is that if the cost is under £1000 the local church has to raise the funds by church bazaars, coffee mornings, etc, but if over that amount the quote has to go off to the local Diocese where the Arch Bishop says yes or no.

As regards the rebuild whilst a total replacement would be preferable that is highly unlikely and you will have to do the rotten sections. Dont try and scarve into a rotten section, replace the lot.

The construction detail that Windmill man has given you is spot on and you could get a book on timber framing from Amazon that can give you some tips on chopping out big joints. A Makita chain morticer will pay for itself very quickly.

You will need some big augur bits, long oak dowels, and a bloody BIG mallet. With Green Oak dont try and glue anything it moves like anything and the dowels hold it together.

Site chippy into Oak mastercrafstman in one job!!  [big grin] [big grin]

[tongue] Haha! Ill try my best some day some day I hope ill become a workshop butcher!lol

The Vicar never even said n e thing bout price or n e thing just said no rush you can come up as much as you like take measurements and stuff just make sure when you start the job you do it so people can still come and go and if you can do as much as possible in work shop so your spend less time on the job.  props hope I wont charge him haaha Im just taking it he wants a price ill work it out best I can and give it him and see if its a jee or nee!

JMB
JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

Another Idea maybe?

Might of noticed im trying to avoid the scarf joint haahaha!! lol

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[peter halle]

I hope that you get this project JMB!

To me this thread is a perfect example of what makes this place so different and so interesting.

What you guys NRINA (Not Residing In North America) do is so different due to the age of the buildings you work with.

Keep Posting, PLEASE!  [thumbs up] [thumbs up] [thumbs up]

 

[tiralie]

Might of noticed im trying to avoid the scarf joint haahaha!! lol

Why? It would be great to see you do the scarf joint.

I like the drawings BTW. Explains what you are trying to do quite effectively...although it's scaring me that I am starting to understand the JMB speak.

It looks like if there ever was a stiff wind, that joint you are planning would be the weakest part of the structure.
Here's a link to a Gary Katz document explaining the use of self healing membrane and "home slicker" three dimensional nylon membrane to keep a column wrap trapping water. Here's the link http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/column_wrap.html.
Tim
Tim

 

[Ken Nagrod]

JMB,

An ice and water shield or even better a door and window flashing like a Vycor product applied to the underside of the beams where they'd touch the base is step one.  The other preventive measure is to reshape the cement the wood structure rests on so that the water sheds away from the wood, pitched all the way around where the wood structure rests on the cement piers.

 

[Pete Pedisich]

JMB,
I am certainly no expert on a timber structures of this scale, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway.  [big grin]

Tim mentioned White Oak, which I think would be the ideal choice to keep the end grain from drinking up water, something that falls from the sky from time to time in the UK I'm told. In addition, Tim is from a place called Oakville, and I'd be inclined to take his advice on this species.

The crazy ideas I'm thinking of are these:
1) Create some air space under the bottom timber, or plate as I'd call it. Somehow this would have to be mostly hidden, as it would look very wrong if it appeard to be set upon spacers. I don't know how this could be done. But in my experience, it aint the getting wet that rots wood, it the stayin' wet that does it. Maybe channels underneath that could be capped at the ends with small bronze grills of the appropriate style (mucho pounds, I would think)
2) Laminate or join a rot resistant wood to the bottom of the bottom plate, like the ironwood sole on the bottom of an ECE wood plane. Again, this could look positively awful, or it could be hidden, such as the bottom troughed out for 25mm of cypress or such, and leaving a skirt intact all 'round to cover it, and still be largely effective. Or maybe if the whole structure was white oak this idea would be superfluous.

I admit my ideas may be unorthodox, just plain wrong, and ugly as well, but they are only ideas to maybe lead to good ideas.

Best of luck however you go, cant wait to see pics.

Pete

 

[tiralie]

If you are feeling ambitious you cold try an arrow scarf or a double fish tail. both joints used for this type of repair(on upright). ( arrow scarf was used for footing arrow shafts, to get them to the standard cloth yard and help penetrate plate armour)

John

Edit, Sorry Guy you said chain mortiser, not chain saw, bit over kill but JMB does like his tools [big grin]

I really think he should get a Scarfer [attachthumb=#]
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=11151&partNumber=128480&langId=-1

 

[jmbfestool]

I hope that you get this project JMB!

To me this thread is a perfect example of what makes this place so different and so interesting.

What you guys NRINA (Not Residing In North America) do is so different due to the age of the buildings you work with.

Keep Posting, PLEASE!   [thumbs up] [thumbs up] [thumbs up]

Thank you!

Well ill be lookin at atleast 3 weeks to 4 weeks and I just come back from a job to day had to fit door frames and window boards ready for the plasters and I was told I will get a call 3 weeks or so to come back and fit the kitchen skirting n everything which might then put an hold on this church project but what I am thinkin of doing in my ''spare'' time I could start to make the supports at home then when I have 2/3 days which I hope is how long it should take with me n my mate to fit them at TOPS! lol 

If I deffos have the job I will make sure ill take pictures!

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

Might of noticed im trying to avoid the scarf joint haahaha!! lol

Why? It would be great to see you do the scarf joint.

I like the drawings BTW. Explains what you are trying to do quite effectively...although it's scaring me that I am starting to understand the JMB speak.

It looks like if there ever was a stiff wind, that joint you are planning would be the weakest part of the structure.
Here's a link to a Gary Katz document explaining the use of self healing membrane and "home slicker" three dimensional nylon membrane to keep a column wrap trapping water. Here's the link http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/column_wrap.html.
Tim
Tim

Yes thats what I think!  BUT the arched (knee?) will also support and help keep the top section in place!  Also if you look at the current joint its also very thin

As you can see in the picture I have made everything brownish which is how it is now

You can see the halving joint is very out of proportion.    So I can not see why I can do the same but on the face like I showed with the dovetail idea I could do it straight instead but just think the dovetail will just hold the roof down aswell as tipping.  The only thing it would be doing would be reducing the width of the horizontal piece but I think it will still be strong enough no?
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[jmbfestool]

Here is my final idea of how I think would be the EASIEST but still do the job well? I hope! lol  As a scarf joint will be very difficult to do in position I would like you to actually show me if you can on my drawings where would you do the scarf joint? As I can not see any where on the upright beam it could go easily.  Thank you in advanced!

So I have do done the horizontal beam transparent so you can see everything more easily in one picture.
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[jmbfestool]

If you are feeling ambitious you cold try an arrow scarf or a double fish tail. both joints used for this type of repair(on upright). ( arrow scarf was used for footing arrow shafts, to get them to the standard cloth yard and help penetrate plate armour)

John

Edit, Sorry Guy you said chain mortiser, not chain saw, bit over kill but JMB does like his tools [big grin]

I really think he should get a Scarfer [attachthumb=#]
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=11151&partNumber=128480&langId=-1

How do I use that?  I have had a quick look on the internet but cnt see how it will come in on my job.  Explain please!

JMB

 

[tiralie]

How do I use that?  I have had a quick look on the internet but cnt see how it will come in on my job.  Explain please!
JMB

That Scarffer from West systems will only cut plywood up to 3/8" thick so it really won't help you here.
Sorry JMB, my suggestion was meant more of as a bit of humor rather than a real constructive suggestion.

As far as addressing your problem: if you are not planning on removing the whole unit and working on it off site, it will  be difficult to cut a scarf joint.

If you can create a scarf joint and use the cross member to lock the scarf I think that will improve the strength.
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[jmbfestool]

Thank you for your Sketch drawing!  I see now how you can do a scarf join but like you said it will be very difficult not saying it would be impossible but I would say very impractical and time consuming and ill say it again VERY difficult.

I dont know if I want to do the job reallly! The more I think about it the more I think its just goin to be a lot of hassle as its not something I often do I aint crossed it off my list but I am having my doubts!

Ill get my current jobs back on track first at im a few days behind because of a company not delivering the good on time!

JMB

 

[tiralie]

Thank you for your Sketch drawing!  I see now how you can do a scarf join but like you said it will be very difficult not saying it would be impossible but I would say very impractical and time consuming and ill say it again VERY difficult.

Yes, realistically it would be easier and faster and probably last longer to replace the post, cross member, supports and base with new timber.

I dont know if I want to do the job reallly! The more I think about it the more I think its just goin to be a lot of hassle as its not something I often do I aint crossed it off my list but I am having my doubts!

Oh oh, the Vicar will be disappointed! Just joking.

Ill get my current jobs back on track first at im a few days behind because of a company not delivering the good on time!

Ya crap happens!

Tim

 

[jmbfestool]

Well thought ill just give an update about a months time going to be a meeting.  I have spoken to vicar asking about planning permission and he assured me that the church has their own planning because they are under a charity planning which they control and decide what can and cannot be done. So I suggested instead of repairing I would rather replace the entire thing like for like and he said he would be happy for that to be done.  

All I hav to do is give him a full detail what I will be doing and what joints I would use and why because the people who will decide if it goes ahead or not are not in the trade so will need to understand what is what. Also including how much it i will all cost of course.

So  ill be finding out about a months time if I get the go head! I would like to do the job but then I wouldn't as its a little out of my comfort zone!

JMB