Clean cuts with TS75?

[Iwood75]

I'm about to purchase a TS saw. I've seen a demo of the TS55 with its 48 tooth blade and was very impressed with the clean, non-splintered cut when ripping and especially cross cutting 2x and plywood. I'd rather spend the difference and buy the TS75 for its greater depth and power, etc. but am concerned that the blade IT comes with will not deliver the same quality of cut. Don't want to compromise on quality. I'd appreciate hearing about your "cut quality" experiences.

Also, will the TS75 work OK with the standard 42" rail that comes with the MFT/3 table?

Thanks for sharing your advice and suggestions.  Joel

 

[semenza]

Hi Joel,

Welcome to the FOG !  [smile]

I do not have experience with the TS75  only the 55. I was not impressed with the cut quality of the Universal blade (the that comes with the TS75) when I tried it on my 55 . It is a combination blade so it does all types of cutting ... just OK.  I know some have had a different experience with the Universal blade though. If you want the best cut quality, even if the Universal does it well, the Fine blade will still give a better cut.

The TS75 saw will work fine on the 42" MFT rail, but you will lose a few inches of cut length capacity.

Seth

 

[Jonhilgen]

The cut with the universal blade on the 75 aren't nearly as nice as the blade that comes with the 55.  That being said, I've been using my 75 daily (not by choice, my 55 is being used on another job), and I have been modifying prefinished cabinets on-site with similar results.  It's just so much bigger...but you do get used to it.

If you really need the extra depth, get the 75.  You really won't be disappointed.  Worse case, you get a better blade.  And its always good to have a soared blade around.

My two cents.

Jon

 

[jmbfestool]

You can just get a new blade if you went for the TS75

Any way. I own both. TS55 and TS75

Also I have used them both in 110v and 240v.

The 110v lack power compared to the 240v anyway I don't think that affects you.

The TS55 runs smoother and is a lot nicer to use I hardly ever use my TS75 I only use it when the TS55 won't cut it.

Jmb

 

[JSands]

one of the ingredients of a clean cut, is POWER....  more power, = more potential for a clean cut.  This assumes less power will bog down the motor which will force you to slow down you push speed....slower push speed = more revolutions of the blade in the wood, which generates heat and can leave burn marks.  Heat also can dull a blade faster than excessive use. 

That being said, if you are only cutting 3/4" sheet goods,  the 55 is powerful enough....once you pass 3/4" or start cutting hardwoods, I think you will appreciate the added power of the 75... the only benefit of the 55 as I see it, lighter, easier to handle, takes up less of the rail ends for starting and ending...so if you are using it all day, that might be one reason to consider  the 55....  we all use the tools in a different manner...

 

[jmbfestool]

one of the ingredients of a clean cut, is POWER....  more power, = more potential for a clean cut.   This assumes less power will bog down the motor which will force you to slow down you push speed....slower push speed = more revolutions of the blade in the wood, which generates heat and can leave burn marks.   Heat also can dull a blade faster than excessive use.   

That being said, if you are only cutting 3/4" sheet goods,  the 55 is powerful enough....once you pass 3/4" or start cutting hardwoods, I think you will appreciate the added power of the 75... the only benefit of the 55 as I see it, lighter, easier to handle, takes up less of the rail ends for starting and ending...so if you are using it all day, that might be one reason to consider  the 55....  we all use the tools in a different manner...

True but the TS 75 does not run as smooth if you actually look at the blade when it starts up it wobbles slightly the TS55 does not.  Also while it's running the TS55 is smooth.  The TS75 feels more ratelly.

Jmb

 

[Umbro]

Hi there,

I have to say that basing your purchase on the fact that "will the cut be as good with the standard blade" is a bit backward thinking. Do you intend to stay with that blade forever?
If your after a fine cut buy a fine cut blade.
I personally would base it on the fact that the ts75 is much more powerful, can cut to a deeper depth and would be the saw of choice were you ever to want to put it in a cms table.

I've have both the 55 and 75. I bought the 75 first and was very impressed with how much grunt it has. It was powerful enough to rip wet  6x2s ( with the right blade) in the cms table. I did however find it a bit cumbersome on the mft. Mainly due to the height of the table combined with the weight of the saw and I'm 6' 2" builder.

I bought the 55 because it was a pain in the a### keep taking the 75 out of the cms insert to do other jobs on site.
I've found it a much nicer saw to use on the mft than the 75, it seems to be much more in proportion with the table. It's also easier to use if for example trimming the end of 4x2s and alike running against a framing square.

So I would say don't base your purchase on the fact of a cut with a standard blade but on what you envisage using the saw for.

I'm not sure if you're DIY or trade.
If your DIY I'd probably opt for the 55, it a lovely bit of kit and will handle most anything you come up against.
If you're trade, as you know you'll probably come across a lot of different situations that the 55 will be to small and the 75 will be abit overkill so buy both.  If you are trade and can't afford the price of a spare blade or two you need to put your prices up.

Hope this helps and doesn't sound condescending in any way.

Rowan

 

[bhendrix]

Another factor to consider is the motor/blade speed difference.

I originally owned only the TS75.  When I went to cabinet class in Lebanon, we used TS55.  It was then that I discovered that the 55 seemed to cut more quickly and smoothly through plywood (especially cross-grain) than I had experienced with my 75.

When I returned to my hotel room that night, I checked the specifications of both and made a comparison:

TS 55 - 48 tooth blade spinning at max 5200 rpm = 249,600 tpm = 4,160 teeth per second spinning on 1200 watt motor

TS 75 - 36 tooth blade spinning at max 3550 rpm = 127,800 tpm = 2,130 teeth per second spinning on 1600 watt motor

With nearly twice as many cuts per second (assuming adequate power) the 55 cuts more smoothly (by some measure) in sheet goods than the 75.
It would require a 70 tooth blade on the 75 to equal the cuts per second of the 55.

The 75, with lower speed and more power, does a better job, for me, of cutting (especially ripping) thicker, heavier material.

I now own both 55 and 75, as each appears to be "better" at different tasks.

Collect them all.  They're a set.

 

[semenza]

Hi Rowan,

You have been on for a couple months, belated welcome to the FOG !  [smile]

Seth

 

[semenza]

Since the OP is in the USA, it is probably not realistic to consider the saw will  be put into a Festool CMS or similar unit anytime in the near  future.

As far as power to cut goes... I regularly cut 4/4 lumber including hardwoods (not wet , green wood) with the TS55. Using the proper blade for the type of cutting it has no trouble and does not bog down and is not slow.. Not saying the 75 would not do it faster or maybe do it using the wrong blade, but I do not feel that the 55 is under powered. Under powered makes it sound like it has a difficult time cutting , it does not.

Joel, is there a dealer or a FOG member near you  that would allow you  to try the saws?

Plus don't forget about the Festool 30 day deal, Festool really does honor that.

Seth

 

[Umbro]

Hi Seth,

Cheers.

You say It's not realistic about the cms in the States but if these festool tools are as good we are lead to believe then 5-10 years down the line they could be a reality in the US then the saws ready to pop in.
I'm splitting hairs abit but I was just trying to share my experiences with both saws and there uses and maybe limitations.
I certainly haven't found the 55 underpowered in anyway, but when it comes to say for example trimming a 4x2 framed gate covered in 18mm ply your knackered depthwise.
  In theses situations it's sometimes not hard to show the limitations of the 55s depth of cut. Horses for courses.

Rowan

 

[semenza]

My comments on the power were not so much specific to this thread, but more in general because I have seen  postings related to the underpowered idea  before.

Of course the 75 has more power and more depth.

Just providing info for the OP , to make th decision more difficult  [big grin]

Seth

 

[Qwas]

Another factor to consider is the motor/blade speed difference.

I originally owned only the TS75.  When I went to cabinet class in Lebanon, we used TS55.  It was then that I discovered that the 55 seemed to cut more quickly and smoothly through plywood (especially cross-grain) than I had experienced with my 75.

When I returned to my hotel room that night, I checked the specifications of both and made a comparison:

TS 55 - 48 tooth blade spinning at max 5200 rpm = 249,600 tpm = 4,160 teeth per second spinning on 1200 watt motor

TS 75 - 36 tooth blade spinning at max 3550 rpm = 127,800 tpm = 2,130 teeth per second spinning on 1600 watt motor

With nearly twice as many cuts per second (assuming adequate power) the 55 cuts more smoothly (by some measure) in sheet goods than the 75.
It would require a 70 tooth blade on the 75 to equal the cuts per second of the 55.

The 75, with lower speed and more power, does a better job, for me, of cutting (especially ripping) thicker, heavier material.

I now own both 55 and 75, as each appears to be "better" at different tasks.

Collect them all.  They're a set.

I'm not familiar with the term "teeth per minute" in woodworking.  I don't think I've ever seen it used to compare saws. I think in this scenario it is giving false information.

Wouldn't the blade diameter (along with rpm) play a critical role in the cut quality?

 

[AlexThePalex]

I'm not familiar with the term "teeth per minute" in woodworking.  I don't think I've ever seen it used to compare saws. I think in this scenario it is giving false information.

Wouldn't the blade diameter (along with rpm) play a critical role in the cut quality?

Then you haven't been paying attention. It is common knowledge that blades with more teeth give better cut quality. In this regard "teeth per minute" is a decisive factor. It works just like "grits" with sandpaper. The smaller the increment in the cut, the better the quality of the cut.

To look at the blade diameter or RPM as factors all by themselves don't make us any wiser, because the only thing that really matters regarding these two factors, is the resulting speed with which the teeth hit the wood. The speed of the teeth is determined by combining three variables: RPM, diameter and number of teeth.

Question: what is it that defines a cut as being of "good quality"?

 

[bhendrix]

Hi Steve,

I may be thinking incorrectly here, but regardless of the blade diameter difference, there are still nearly twice as many teeth passing through the material per unit of time with the 55 compared to the 75.  I was thinking of the comparison in feed rate on a planer.  Slower feed rate equals more cuts per unit of time.  Difference between 55 and 75 equals more cuts per unit of time.

I did a little calculation on the difference in blade diameter as well as rpm.  The 55 uses a 6.25" blade and the 75 uses 8.25".  If I did my math correctly (not always a valid assumption), the 55 blade tip is spinning at 96.7 mph and the 75 tip is spinning at 87.1 mph.  So the 55 blade circumference is running 11% faster with 33% more teeth than the 75 blade circumference.

 

[Qwas]

Alex, I don't have a definitive answer to "good quality" but I'm sure it starts with little splintering.  [smile]

Bill, I always assumed the TS-75 had lower rpm's because of the larger diameter.  I'm sure there is a "speed" or revolution speed for the blade's teeth that Festool was wanting to achieve. I have no idea what that number might be.

 

[ccarrolladams]

In the USA Festool ships the TS55 with a 48 tooth Fine Tooth Saw Blade cat 495 377. My long experience is that this blade is appropriate for both cross grain and with the grain sawing of sheet material up to 37mm. The TS55 has enough power to handing these kinds of cuts with that blade.

Festool USA ships the more powerful TS75 with  a 36 tooth Universal Saw Blade cat 495 380. Probably Festool does this because they assume the TS75 will be used on solid lumber. Festool also offers for the TS75 a 52 tooth Fine Tooth Saw Blade cat 495 381. Personally I find cat 495 381 does a decent job sawing sheet material, but the cut quality to me is not as good as using a TS55 with the cat 495 377.

The choice comes down to what cut quality is good enough for a given project.

When I am working with sheet material my goal is to avoid post-sawing procedures. What I expect is a glue-ready cut that is exactly where I want it to be. I do not remember the last time I needed to cut sheet material thicker than 37mm with a rail guided saw. When I am using a Festool rail guided saw on sheet material I use one of my TS55 with the cat 495 377 blade.

Personally I reserve my TS75 for sawing solid lumber and thick sheet material when it is not practical to use a beam or sliding table saw.

 

[JSands]

Bill, your math could be right, I don't have the RPM handy for each....but you must consider, the 55 gets bogged down a a bit, slowing the speed of the blade.... at least vs. the 75 which has more power.    So the 75 can be pushed through the material faster, with less potential for burn as you have less teeth hitting the entire cut, which = less friction = less heat.  This is where power is beneficial.... a good analogy is a strong cabinet saw... I never get burn marks on my Cabinet saw, as I can feed the stock pretty damn fast since there is 4x the power vs. the 75.

The other factor is how sharp the blades are.... the sharper the blade, the easier the cut, the faster the push-through speed, less friction =  less potential for burn marks...  as the previous poster mentioned, often the goal with the Festool TS Rail system is Glue ready cuts, with no additional work to the edge.  That is a lot to ask from a 120V tool, so if this is the goal, you have to pay attention to details as mentioned above, the right blade, kept sharp .... and relatively fast push-through speed.  My guess is, the 55 would leave more burn marks on double stacked 3/4" thick sheets vs. the 75 as you can only push the 55 so fast through 2 sheets of 3/4" material.... while the 75 moves through at a good pace...
 

 

[Iwood75]

Thanks everyone for your responses and such incisive, helpful information. I've decided to go with the TS75. Hopeful that I'll get "glue-ready cuts, with no additional work to the edge" results with the 52T blade. I really appreciate hearing your collective experiences.  Joel

 

[stairman]

I'm not familiar with the term "teeth per minute" in woodworking.  I don't think I've ever seen it used to compare saws. I think in this scenario it is giving false information.

Wouldn't the blade diameter (along with rpm) play a critical role in the cut quality?

Then you haven't been paying attention. It is common knowledge that blades with more teeth give better cut quality. In this regard "teeth per minute" is a decisive factor. It works just like "grits" with sandpaper. The smaller the increment in the cut, the better the quality of the cut.

To look at the blade diameter or RPM as factors all by themselves don't make us any wiser, because the only thing that really matters regarding these two factors, is the resulting speed with which the teeth hit the wood. The speed of the teeth is determined by combining three variables: RPM, diameter and number of teeth.

Question: what is it that defines a cut as being of "good quality"?

WRONG  You don't know what you are talking about.

you go ahead and put  a 100 tooth blade on the fastest most powerful saw motor you can find and plunge it into 8/4 Hard Maple and start ripping...  I'll take a 10" 18 tooth Thick Stock Rip Blade,  which has the correct tooth design, depth of gullet  and hook angle.

you will likely start a fire,  while my blade will make clean cuts even on a crappy plastic jobsite saw.

the blade DESIGN makes all the difference in the world.

granted, there are "in between"  compromised designs such as the "general purpose"  or "Combination" blades we often receive complimentary with new tools, 
but these don't do anything exceptionally well.  (Jack of all trades,  Master of none!)

use the right blade for the job at hand and you will be very happy with either Festool saw you choose.

as has been said here a few times,  the TS55 is lighter,    while the TS75 has greater depth and more power  (of course it takes more power to spin a larger blade!)

Personally, I would like to be able to use TS55 blades on my TS75,  the the added power of the TS75 could be fully appreciated when comparing the two saws,  eh?

There is a plethora of knowledge available when it comes to saw blade design and theory...      but merely calculating the  rim speed  times the number of teeth...    -that equation is missing a lot of other variables!