Columns -- Long Bevels/miters

[sdscolumbia]

I need to make two 12' columns for wedding decorations (either 1X10X12 or 2X10X12) and I want to miter the edges so it looks like one big 10X10.    I have a TS55 with two 4' rails (and TSO guide rail connectors) and a portable dewalt table saw. 

If I use the TS55 and tracks to cut the first 6-7 feet or so of the long miters (butting the edge guide flush with the edge of my 1X10), will I lose accuracy by sliding the rails to cut the remainder of the 12' long miter? 

Toying with the idea of buying another guide, but thought I may be able to cut each 12' long miter in two stages.

Or would the table saw with a long outfeed table/rollers be a better idea? 

Thanks.

 

[mino]

I presume by 4' rails you mean two 1400 mm long ones (4.6').

Having that, I advise to get one more FS/2 1080 rail which will not only provide just the right extension but the 1080 will become your go-to rail for short cuts so will not be a waste. (1400+1400+1080 = 3880 = 12.7')

To that add a set of the Makita connectors and use your TSO set for alignment, with Makita one for the "upper" track, fixing the position of the rails. The TSOs are great for alignment, but you require only one of the connectors for alignment so one set is good for two joints and the other connectors a can be the simple, yet sturdy, Makita set.

Edit:
A table saw is IMO the worst possible tool for this type of a job. Unless you got one of those 12' + $50k sliding monsters, that is.

Some comment on bevels with a tracksaw:
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/ts55eq-disappointed-is-latest-models-more-robust/msg665108/#msg665108

 

[xedos]

will I lose accuracy by sliding the rails to cut the remainder of the 12' long miter? 

Of course - but it may be to an acceptable level for you on this project.

Toying with the idea of buying another guide, but thought I may be able to cut each 12' long miter in two stages.
Or would the table saw with a long outfeed table/rollers be a better idea?

It certainly can be done in 2 stages.  But  ........ (see above)

Whether a table saw is better than the tracksaw is entirely subjective.  Given your tool arsenal , I'd go with the tracksaw.  But , you should try both methods on the first column and see which works for you.

Be sure to have a pair of feather boards and a new blade for your tablesaw.  Selecting the proper blade for the job will be critical too.  You don't say what material you're using.  I'm assuming it's solid wood, so don't even attempt the cut with the standard TS55 blade.  Get the 16t Panther blade and or a RIP blade for the DeWalt. 

To that add a set of the Makita connectors and use your TSO set for alignment, with Makita one for the "upper" track, fixing the position of the rails. The TSOs are great for alignment, but you require only one of the connectors for alignment so one set is good for two joints and the other connectors a can be the simple, yet sturdy, Makita set.

While a good tip, I'd pass on this route.  There's little/no cost savings - and you'll need two different tools to snug up the fasteners on the different bars.  You'll also have to organize two different bars when not in use if you remove them.

 

[mino]

While a good tip, I'd pass on this route.  There's little/no cost savings - and you'll need two different tools to snug up the fasteners on the different bars.  You'll also have to organize two different bars when not in use if you remove them.

There is some cost saving, the Makita set is $20 or so which is 1/2 the TSO set.

But the real point is it being a cheaper and more accurate setup compared to two TSO sets. Both properties make the Makita set great as a secondary set which one does not use often. For a daily driver - with you there.

 

[nvalinski]

I honestly have struggled to get good long miters with saws. The issue is less about boards staying straight and more about not having the saw/board tip and ever so slightly changing the angle/depth of the miter and not allowing it to close up nicely later. I've had much better luck using a router with a large 45 degree chamfer bit and a fence to make miters. You can glue the edge directly or use biscuits/dominoes to help align the glue up afterwards. A lock miter bit is also theoretically an option but I've struggled to get these accurate with the length you are talking about.

 

[rvieceli]

I’m going to be the contrarian here. A 12 foot long miter in regular lumber is a recipe for frustration on your part. I’d suggest using a regular box butt joint  It will look fine and no one is going to say “would have been a great wedding but jeez that guy that did the columns used a butt joint.”

Most of the time those things are decorated with a significant amount of greenery etc

Ron

 

[sdscolumbia]

Thanks to all for the responses.    One thing I neglected to tell you was that I have to build these columns with a removable fourth side so I can wrap them around a tent pole. I think I may just go with the regular butt joint and  reinforce with dominoes and glue on the three sides and use dominoes for alignment on the fourth with trim screws. 

The wedding will be at night and there will be a good bit of greenery so I doubt anyone will notice. 

Was also wondering if I did do the long miters and added dominoes in the miters would I be able to use the tape method to put glue them up (would the dominos be able to be inserted with the outside edges taped? 

 

[mino]

I have assumed you are looking to make it from ply - raw wood is indeed calling for trouble if not well-dried and calling for a waste of material if good quality.

Also assumed it is to be 10'x10' LOL ...

Going non-mittered should be absolutely fine as you pointed.

The big advantage of a mittered joint is it will not separate as the wood moves over time while the basic butt joint will, showing the joint under the paint.

But I guess you do not plan on using this for multiple weddings ... so a glued butt-joint painted over will not be visible at all. Just make it with a bit of overhang and trim it with a router copy bit. Eventually the paint will break as the wood moves with moisture, but not in a day or in a week ... And if you wanted to multi-use, you can actually leave an intentional overhang that will be a part of the design instead.

And the 4th removable side you can then make also much easier, just screw it on and paint over the screws (optional). Lots of options there to not overcomplicate yet have a good look.

 

[rst]

12' x 10' x10' pvc posts are available that have miterlock corners...expensive but easier

 

[Packard]

I would be inclined to use a 45-degree router bit.  A lot more sawdust, but guaranteed 45 degrees (if you buy a quality bit).

I've done quite a few smaller pieces using the table saw.  I have a right tilt saw.  So I first cut the pieces to width.  Then I mount a sacrificial fence from 3/4" stock. 

I relieve about an 1/8" of the fence about 5/8" tall.  This keeps the off-cuts from getting trapped and kicking back.  I have never had the small section kick back.  It just rattles around a bit.  Nonetheless, I stand aside while I am doing this.

I did not design this method. I got it from an issue of Fine Woodworking.  Make a small test sample first to make sure the corners close properly.  It is preferable to have a small gap at the inside instead of at the outside where it would show.

I used packing tape along three of the joints.  I then applied glue and folded it up into a rectangle and closed the rectangle with more packing tape. 

I was using plywood and the joints were surprisingly strong.  On 3/4" thick stock, 3/8" is face grain to face grain.  Where I thought was necessary, I added an inside strip glued to both surfaces for added strength.  But you cannot do that on 12' long columns.  You can do it on 12" tall boxes.

 

[ChuckM]

If time is a constraint, the butt joint is the way to go as it's much simpler to do.

But I'd do it with the bevels to acquire the necessary experience and skills. There're tons of YouTube videos about cutting "prefect" bevels on a table saw, with a router chamfer bit, or using a track saw. It's a valuable technique to learn, and since this is not a furniture grade assignment, even if you screwed up a bit, it wouldn't be a disaster. Things to learn include tuning the machine for spot-on bevels, controlling long rip cuts, and assembly tricks. Using Dominoes for the bevels in itself is also an experience worth getting. We can learn more or deeply when we're out of our comfort zone.

 

[Packard]

Also, consider a shallow rabbit to locate the boards and a chamfer right up to the rabbit.  It would hide the joint and be decorative.  It would also make for easy assembly. 

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Trying to get perfect miters on 12' solid wood pieces with a table saw is likely to be a frustrating adventure. It would probably be a good way to get "most" of the wood removed though, if you have good in-feed/out-feed support. Then clean it up with a big 45 degrees router bit. Of course, that assumes you have a router? and that bit is about $40.

Staining? Painting?

BTW, you can't do the tape/fold method with Dominos. They will not allow that, but they kind of eliminate the need for it at the same time.

 

[Packard]

Considering the size, I thin the easiest method would be to cut a rabbet about 1/8” deep x the width of the board. This will make assembly fairly easy.

After assembly chamfer the edges right up to the glue line.  That also is a simple operation.

Nails will be an issue, however.  I would try to locate some small diameter duplex nails. Remove after the glue dries.
https://gistgear.com/area/Industrial|Duplex Nails

 

[tjbnwi]

I’d use 1x and rip these with the track saw, set the bevel to 45.5º.

Assemble 3 sides using tape fold method, make sure you insert side 4 to keep things square.

Seeing as you have to remove these, make some U-shaped spacer to keep the covers from moving around. Install the back face with some trim screws, painted to match the finish.

If I didn’t have remove these I’d hold them in place by gluing the 4 piece in place using plastic stretch tape as the clamp. Once the glue dried injecting expanding foam will lock the cover to the posts.

Tom

 

[ChuckM]

I’d use 1x and rip these with the track saw, set the bevel to 45.5º.

Snip.
Tom

^^^^ this.

Whether using a track saw or a table saw, going slightly over 45* by a quarter or half a degree with the blade angle is the trick.

 

[Bob D.]

Also, consider a shallow rabbit to locate the boards and a chamfer right up to the rabbit.  It would hide the joint and be decorative.  It would also make for easy assembly.

^^^^ This would be my approach.

 

[Packard]

I am revising my suggestion to use duplex nails.  They appear to be available in larger sizes only and those would be too large for 3/4" (20mm) lumber.

I guess I would use a #4 screw that is 1" to 1.25" long.  The other option is to use about 24 bar clamps per column. 

I would make two rabbets on two of the sides and make the other two sides an inch narrower so that they can be assembled easier. 

I would glue and shoot screws in (instead of clamps).  After the glue dries, I would back out the screws and add the chamfer.  Then I would fill the screw holes and paint.

 

[Bob D.]

I don't understand the need to remove the screws. For a project like this I would just sink the screws deep enough that I could cover with some filler and paint.

If you didn't want to leave the screws and use them for clamping only then use a washer head screw such as a Kreg pocket screw and put a small fender washer under the head to spread the load out. Then when you back out the screw you are only left with the small shank hole to fill.

 

[Packard]

I don't understand the need to remove the screws. For a project like this I would just sink the screws deep enough that I could cover with some filler and paint.

If you didn't want to leave the screws and use them for clamping only then use a washer head screw such as a Kreg pocket screw and put a small fender washer under the head to spread the load out. Then when you back out the screw you are only left with the small shank hole to fill.

If he is going to add the chamfer to hide the joint, then it is likely that the routerbit will hit the screws.  If he is not going to add the chamfer, then yes, I would drive them below the surface and putty and paint.

Or, if he does not trust the glue (I do) then he could remove them for the chamfer and replace them prior to filling the holes.

Truss head cabinet screws would be a good option too--I had not thought of that.  They are available in 1¼" lengths.