For the amount of cabinets you are building I would not recommend either. I would just screw or dowel them with a cheep dowel jig. Neither makes sense for one build. If you are planning more work in the future I would recommend the domino unless you are going to be exclusively doing cabinets.
DF500 vs DDF40 for 30 Eurostyle cabinets...
- Thread starter joesan
- Start date
mino
Member
- Joined
- May 5, 2016
- Messages
- 1,989
I would second Dongar.
if you have just one big job, a good strategy is to prepare everything and then -lend- a DF500 for a weekend.
Over here they lend DF500 for 20€/day which is peanuts when one gets a good use out of it.
I would pass on the DDF40. It is more finicky in its operation (no "loose dowel" option like on the Domino) and thus more geared to the proffesional who would care for the Domino/dowel price savings in the long run.
For dowels, where applicable, the LR32 system can do most what DDF40 can do just a bit slower. And it needs only the plate as both a router and the rails one would have anyway.
if you have just one big job, a good strategy is to prepare everything and then -lend- a DF500 for a weekend.
Over here they lend DF500 for 20€/day which is peanuts when one gets a good use out of it.
I would pass on the DDF40. It is more finicky in its operation (no "loose dowel" option like on the Domino) and thus more geared to the proffesional who would care for the Domino/dowel price savings in the long run.
For dowels, where applicable, the LR32 system can do most what DDF40 can do just a bit slower. And it needs only the plate as both a router and the rails one would have anyway.
Thanks folks, for the truly useful and informative answers. It's great to have the benefit of your experience. It looks a little like – as with so many things in life – it all boils down to personal preference!
To clarify one point: the panels will be CNC-cut by a vendor. I don't personally have a CNC rig and – although I love and trust my TS55 and think it cuts with more than enough accuracy – the idea of manhandling so many large sheets and cutting over a 120 different panels seems a little daunting.
However, to get the holes for dowels etc CNCd also the vendor wants to charge me over £600, making it more viable for me to buy a tool to do it myself. I will make further cabinets etc further down the line so the hand tools will get further use.
I guess I'm now a little more disposed to buy the domino as I worry that the DDF40 has no wiggle room at all. Although I do wonder if the domino aligns things enough that the panels are held in place and square enough for me to finish with a confirmat or spax screw?
To clarify one point: the panels will be CNC-cut by a vendor. I don't personally have a CNC rig and – although I love and trust my TS55 and think it cuts with more than enough accuracy – the idea of manhandling so many large sheets and cutting over a 120 different panels seems a little daunting.
However, to get the holes for dowels etc CNCd also the vendor wants to charge me over £600, making it more viable for me to buy a tool to do it myself. I will make further cabinets etc further down the line so the hand tools will get further use.
I guess I'm now a little more disposed to buy the domino as I worry that the DDF40 has no wiggle room at all. Although I do wonder if the domino aligns things enough that the panels are held in place and square enough for me to finish with a confirmat or spax screw?
Peter Kelly
Member
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2012
- Messages
- 363
You're in Germany so assuming the parts are going to be cut with a beam saw then theoretically transferred to a point to point machine for dowel & Confirmat drilling, they'd also be able to line bore and groove for backs in one go as well. An extra 20,- per box doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.
Is your vendor edge banding the panels?
Is your vendor edge banding the panels?
Either will work so I wouldnt fret to much, As far as the ddf40 not having any slop setting that is true but its pretty easy to just shift it over a mm or so and re plunge. Not sure if you saw my other post but I actually made a vacuum jig that does exactly that. I was having an issue with matching edge bored dowels to my CNC face bored holes. I would sometimes be about .008" from the face being perfectly flush. Its only an issue with holes for some reason. Also the ddf40 had about .004" difference from the left to right side of the fence. Plus who knows edge band and edge band glue consistency etc. Either way I wanted a little wiggle room. So I made a jig that had an extra .020" built in which I centered so there is .010" for and aft. This ended up working perfect so far and provides just enough wiggle room to fine tune the during assembly phase. Its still snug enough that glue fills any voids. The ddf40 is more flexible (larger range of sizes and depths) and uses cheaper dowels.
This is also my biggest request with the Domino (just incase Festool or another tool maker is listening for when the PAT. runs out) I wish it had a variable slop dial and not just 3 settings. The middle setting is more than enough slop and most times I would prefer less. If it had a variable slop dial it would be really cool so a user could dial in just as much slop as he or she wanted. Also a better fence and geared adjustment for fine tuning the height.
This is also my biggest request with the Domino (just incase Festool or another tool maker is listening for when the PAT. runs out) I wish it had a variable slop dial and not just 3 settings. The middle setting is more than enough slop and most times I would prefer less. If it had a variable slop dial it would be really cool so a user could dial in just as much slop as he or she wanted. Also a better fence and geared adjustment for fine tuning the height.
Attachments
The P2 is amazing piece of engineering but the cost of consumables kills it for me. At around $3 per connector it would add to much to the cost of each cabinet for everyday use. I could see it for specialty type stuff for large items that couldnt or would be difficult to fit into an elevator etc. and be easier to transport flat packed. However the cost of the unit makes it hard to justify the machine for just occasional use too.
afish said:
Agreed the machine is expensive!!
I mis typed, I meant the Tenso connectors, these are about .80 each in the UK
If being used for knock down, then the Clamex connectors are 1.11 each , these work out at half the cost of the DF500 knock down connectors.
I love both the Lamello and the Domino, both are fantastic tools
Dale
Well, I mentioned earlier in this thread that I was going to run a stop dado cabinet as a trial run. Today was the day and happy to report that I am blown away with the results. Even though I had dialed in my DDF40 process and was happy with the results the stop dado results are even better. Dare I say perfect. Everything just fit together so nicely and flush. This will decrease some of my labor drilling dowels and assembly.
The only issue is there is extra work upfront on the programing but I'm sure I will fine tune that more. However, this raises the question of software. For those building with stop dados, do you have recommendations on software? I dont do enough to spend a lot and I build everything custom so something beyond 3" increments would be good.
Ill wait and see since I dont typically like to sell my tools but I may sell my DDF40 after this appifanie.
The only issue is there is extra work upfront on the programing but I'm sure I will fine tune that more. However, this raises the question of software. For those building with stop dados, do you have recommendations on software? I dont do enough to spend a lot and I build everything custom so something beyond 3" increments would be good.
Ill wait and see since I dont typically like to sell my tools but I may sell my DDF40 after this appifanie.
There's another consideration. How much fun is it? The Domino is fun to use. Plus it's forgiving. Dowels are the opposite. They are not forgiving. The Domino is my favorite joinery method for MFC and for plywood.
Get the cheapest clamps possible that are made from metal. Assembly is very very fast with Dominos, especially for MFC. Pop the case together. Have three or four clamps set up on the ground (or better a low height assembly table) Set the case on those clamps place 4 clamps on top then tighten it all down. Don't need much pressure. Since you'll only be gluing in the mortises it's not messy. Wipe off the squeeze out and while that case sets up start on the next. You can have all 18 cases assembled in one long day.
Also I'd consider the XL. You can use if for everything the 500 does plus more. Get the Seneca adapter set and you can use 5mm tenons for sheet goods. And you'll have that marvelous 70mm depth for everything else. Beds, passage doors, big tables and so on. You can use your XL as the starter for doing big through tenon joinery. Just square off the ends.
You'll have it for the rest of your life and it will open up possibilities. How about an fancy garden gate? How about helping a friend with his cabinets? How about doing some cabinetry for your church or for your favorite charitable organization?
I use a lot of pocket holes. I have one of the older Kreg Foreman pocket hole machines and all sorts of pocket hole specific clamps. I do it a lot. A pocket hole jig is something every body should have. For me it's indispensable. But it's not as cool as fun as a Domino and it's ugly. So I use Dominoes whenever I can.
Plus the Domino is clean. Sawdust is practically nonexistent.
Get the cheapest clamps possible that are made from metal. Assembly is very very fast with Dominos, especially for MFC. Pop the case together. Have three or four clamps set up on the ground (or better a low height assembly table) Set the case on those clamps place 4 clamps on top then tighten it all down. Don't need much pressure. Since you'll only be gluing in the mortises it's not messy. Wipe off the squeeze out and while that case sets up start on the next. You can have all 18 cases assembled in one long day.
Also I'd consider the XL. You can use if for everything the 500 does plus more. Get the Seneca adapter set and you can use 5mm tenons for sheet goods. And you'll have that marvelous 70mm depth for everything else. Beds, passage doors, big tables and so on. You can use your XL as the starter for doing big through tenon joinery. Just square off the ends.
You'll have it for the rest of your life and it will open up possibilities. How about an fancy garden gate? How about helping a friend with his cabinets? How about doing some cabinetry for your church or for your favorite charitable organization?
I use a lot of pocket holes. I have one of the older Kreg Foreman pocket hole machines and all sorts of pocket hole specific clamps. I do it a lot. A pocket hole jig is something every body should have. For me it's indispensable. But it's not as cool as fun as a Domino and it's ugly. So I use Dominoes whenever I can.
Plus the Domino is clean. Sawdust is practically nonexistent.
Can't agree more. [big grin]fshanno said:
Only an enthusiastic Domino Joiner user can really understand and appreciate the power of the machine. I still have the dowel centering jig, and it's indispensable for certain tasks, but it has hardly been used for joinery work since I got experienced with the DF500.
This episode is an example showing the usefulness of the Domino's tight-loose combination setting. Tight-to-tight setting is used only for the alignment mortises.
just to be clear for those claiming the dowels have to be placed perfectly is easily worked around. If I need a little wiggle room I just make two plunges one on either side of the layout mark. the second plunge only takes an extra second. This works really well as most of the time you are only off by .010"-.015 unless you mismarked. The 500 is a great tool also but the ddf40 is better suited for cabs. Also mafell offers slightly oversized bits but I prefer the double plunge.
Never handled a DDF40, but when do you plunge twice? After the dry fit right in which adjustments are found to be necessary? And that means you have to identify and mark the holes concerned, if there's more than one and go back to the drilling process for those holes and boards, a step not usually required with the DF500 when the wide mortises are cut.
I don't know which system is better for cabinetmaking, but on the aspect of doing (plunging) it right the first time, one can't deny that the DF500's tight-loose setting really gets it.
I don't know which system is better for cabinetmaking, but on the aspect of doing (plunging) it right the first time, one can't deny that the DF500's tight-loose setting really gets it.
ChuckS said:
Whether or not and "when" double plunge will depend on several things
1.The the individual = doing the layout and plunging (how accurate that person is) the more accurate you are here the less double plunge will be needed.
2. The method of indexing = (jig or pencil mark) If using a jig that will locate the DDF accurately then NO double plunge is typically needed.
3. How accurate (flush) the ends need to be. = This tends to be the biggest driver for me on the double plunge. Typically even if the dowels are only off a little you can still mate the pieces. However the ends being perfectly flush will be where the joint suffers "slightly" This also depends on how OCD a person is and the piece. Sometimes a piece is trimmed or sanded in after so its a non issue. Also when I say "slightly" I'm talking about .008"ish. I just did a piece yesterday that was about 32" long and had 8 dowels (4pairs) laid out by hand with a pencil and the ends were off by maybe .006" just enough to slightly catch a finger nail. The parts were cut on CNC and laminated so no sanding or final trim was planned and they were exact same length. If you are in a situation that requires "perfectly" flush ends then double plunge probably from the start.
4. Joint complexity = The more dowels and/or corners you have coming together the more likely you will benefit from double plunging. After awhile you develop a little voice in the back of your head that tells you when to double plunge. If your worried I would say double plunge from the get go it only takes a couple extra seconds the 2nd plunge is taking off so little you hardly even notice. I would do one side of the joint with single plunge (on the mark) and double plunge the the other piece (place cursor on either side of the pencil mark.)
There is no doubt that the Domino provides a wider margin of error and is a great machine. It was actually my gateway tool into the Festool brand and still own it. However for me personally I find the middle setting to sloppy for my taste. I am typically pretty darn close on the layout and dont require such a large margin so I use the tight setting anyways. This is also my biggest wish for the domino is to have a "variable" Instead of perfect/sloppy and supper sloppy. Does anyone even use the super sloppy ?
For me its like picking the favorite kid, and neither are perfect. Here are my biggest likes/dislikes for each
consumable cost= there is no denying that dominos are considerably more than a dowel typically 4-5x this adds up over time
Mafell has better fence both in adjustability and locking (I wish the domino also had a micro adjust height control for fence)
The Mafell can drill "all" the system holes with one tool. No LR32 is needed. (However I have a lot of love for the LR32 too)
The Mafell has a lot larger range up to 12mm and since its a round hole the 40mm depth is irreverent I have used the DDF40 to do the locating and drill the pilot hole and for heavy duty projects I simply run a longer drill bit down the hole and use dowel rod custom cut. easily getting 12" of length if needed. So im my opinion it bridges the gap between the 500 and 700 in one machine better.
Plunging Ill give the edge to the Domino but its close, really close. The DDF is harder to plunge on the first plunge but you do develop a technique the second plunge if needed is like plunging into butter. The domino requires less effort or force but slower feed rate.
Exposed fastners hands down the Domino wins here and truthfully the only reason I hang onto the Domino. I can do everything with the DDF that I can do with the Domino just as fast EXCEPT have an exposed domino. I will never do another dovetail drawer The Domino is a speed demon for making exposed Domino drawers. Drawers with no dovetails or no visible joinery looks cheap to me. However so does a exposed dowel IMO but a exposed Dominos look really really nice IMO. Its a toss up for me which I like better for best looking drawer box but the combination of speed and looks the Exposed domino drawer wins over a dovetail drawer every time. Even though I have never scientifically tested the strength of either I wouldnt be surprised if the exposed domino wasnt stronger. However at that point its debatable strongest vs. strong enough as the wood will likely fail before the joint.
Maybe Festool has learned from feedback, and the play in the DF700 is only 3mm, which I think is the sweet spot (vs the 6mm and 10mm lateral differences in the DF500).afish said:
But I like the widest feature as I can use the machine like a portable horizontal mortiser. I've used the widest mortise width setting a few times, such as cutting slots for use with the cabinetmaker's buttons (red), and for a clamp-friendly apron (blue):
[attachimg=1]
Without the DF500, I'd have cut stopped grooves with a router for the buttons, a more time-consuming and dusty operation.
Attachments
Thats an interesting tidbit I didnt know the 700 had 3mm vs 6mm middle setting. The 3mm seems much more reasonable. Actually I didnt know the actual specs of either I just knew I cut one on the middle setting and it seemed huge to me. Not sure what the super sloppy setting is but if I needed something bigger than the middle for regular joining I think it would be time to sell all the tools.
mino said:
The 6, 8 and 10mm bits are available in as 6.1, 8.1 and 10.1mm sizes. The 10 and 12mm are available in 10.2 and 12.2mm sizes if you want some slop. I don't know if those are available in the US though.
I had an LR32 set ($500+) and bought a DuoDoweler with a template for shelf pin hole drilling shortly after seeing a video of how it worked. Though not inexpensive, the templates are trivial to setup and use whereas the LR32 is ripe for misalignments. They also allow for repeatable exact dowel placement anywhere in the field. I sold the LR32 set and after trying out the DuoDoweler on a few projects I sold my Domino as I saw no advantage to using it versus the DuoDoweler.
I've never been disappointed with Mafell and have picked up several of their other tools. My favorite is the MF26cc/400 Multi-Cutter for dados. It comes with it's own short rail, but also works with their F rail system. You can even buy a regular blade, triple cutter blade, and a drywall blade for making perfect ninety degree edges. It's a fascinating product. I've only used mine for dados.
Yea, I did mention the oversize bits in one of my other posts but a lot of folks just skim right over that. The issues with the oversize bits are several incase you dont own any.
1. They are pricy
2. they dont provide much wiggle room I need to tap in 8mm dowels into 8mm holes but its humid where I am so that could be partly to blame. The oversize bits dont do a whole lot the dowels are still snug but go in/out with fingers. It still doesnt do much for wiggle room. I also only tried the over sized bits on one half of the joint since the face drilling is done on CNC Perhaps if both sides were drilled with oversized bit it would make more of a difference.
3. The oversize bits increase the entire hole size which could make the one edge misalign as well. The double plunge method maintains a consistent distance between the fence reference edge and dowel.
I had the LR32 prior to the DDF and got really good and fast results with it so I never bothered with the DDF but can see how having just one machine for all would be a big benefit for some.
As far as renting Festools here in the USA thats a no go. I have never seen anyone renting Festool.
1. They are pricy
2. they dont provide much wiggle room I need to tap in 8mm dowels into 8mm holes but its humid where I am so that could be partly to blame. The oversize bits dont do a whole lot the dowels are still snug but go in/out with fingers. It still doesnt do much for wiggle room. I also only tried the over sized bits on one half of the joint since the face drilling is done on CNC Perhaps if both sides were drilled with oversized bit it would make more of a difference.
3. The oversize bits increase the entire hole size which could make the one edge misalign as well. The double plunge method maintains a consistent distance between the fence reference edge and dowel.
I had the LR32 prior to the DDF and got really good and fast results with it so I never bothered with the DDF but can see how having just one machine for all would be a big benefit for some.
As far as renting Festools here in the USA thats a no go. I have never seen anyone renting Festool.