DF700 vs. DF500

[smorgasbord]

Sedge has a new video out comparing them:

 

[alltracman78]

You can lock the paddles away with an Allen key. The user manual covers that step.
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The 700 pins lock away with just a push. And there's a button to release them.
I wonder why the 500 doesn't have this?

 

[ChuckM]

Because a) the DF500 came out before Festool improved some of its features for the DF700, b) the DF500 is too small to incorporate that.  Hopefully, if the DF600 does become a reality before clones of the DF500 machines flood the market upon the end of the patents, it'd include that while keeping its weight down.

If the clones come out, I expect them to be 30% to 40% cheaper.

 

[smorgasbord]

Because a) the DF500 came out before Festool improved some of its features for the DF700, b) the DF500 is too small to incorporate that.  Hopefully, if the DF600 does become a reality before clones of the DF500 machines flood the market upon the end of the patents, it'd include that while keeping its weight down.

If the clones come out, I expect them to be 30% to 40% cheaper.

I think there were about 5 years between them. However, the width of the two machines are the same, and if anything the bigger bits in the DF700 take up more space, so I would think there's room for not only the easier pin locking, but also having the closer 20mm away ones. Unless maybe the extra 5mm of distance from the base plate is the engineering reason.

It does seem the DF500 has been on autopilot - it wouldn't have taken anything to change the plastic labeling on the fence height so that it matches the distance from centerline, which they did for the DF700, but haven't retrofitted back to the DF500.

While we're talking clones eventually hitting the market, I still wonder why there isn't a 7mm domino. Yeah, I know about the rule of thirds, but my personal take is given that there's only 1 tenon but 2 mortise walls, it would actually be stronger to have a slightly thicker tenon, and 8mm is too thick for 18mm stock to be mortised.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
I think there were about 5 years between them. However, the width of the two machines are the same, and if anything the bigger bits in the DF700 take up more space, so I would think there's room for not only the easier pin locking, but also having the closer 20mm away ones. Unless maybe the extra 5mm of distance from the base plate is the engineering reason.Snip.

When I said the DF500 was too small, I was referring to its existing configuration since the question was about why the DF500 couldn't have those pins. If the engineers were to start from scratch, that'd be a different story.

The first generation of DF500s came out with pins, not paddles (or edge stops), so I doubt that Festool already had the button pins on the drawing board when it released the DF500. Rumor has it that the pins had patent infringement issues, and therefore Festool adopted the paddles before it could come up with anything (such as the button pins) soon enough as a replacement. The first version with pins rather than paddles would be my preferred choice as they offer added versatility in some applications.

Who knows? Maybe the clones will have all the best features of the two machines (including increased cutting depths, pins (if they could work around the patent issues), button pins, less weight, etc.) plus others like a built-in LED that it could be too late to wait for the release of the next edition of the Festool domino machines -- at 2/3 or lower of the prices Festool is selling the DF500 for.

 

[squall_line]

Who knows? Maybe the clones will have all the best features of the two machines (including increased cutting depths, pins (if they could work around the patent issues), button pins, less weight, etc.) plus others like a built-in LED that it could be too late to wait for the next edition of the Festool domino machines from -- and at 2/3 or lower of the prices Festool is selling the Domino machines for.

Assuming all of the engineers and forward-thinking people haven't been run out of the company (and I have no reason to believe they have, other than in the Systainer division), the right move for Festool is to release the next version 3-6 months before the patents expire. 

There's a case for waiting to see what the competition brings to market and then matching the feature set, but the lead times don't work in Festool's favor when pricing comes into play; they would have given up too much market share by then.

Let's hope the engineers make the fence more modular in nature so that even if, for example, there's no LED light available at launch, it can still be provided later if the competition all adds lights (see also: OF-1010R's new light module).

Speaking of patents, my current understanding is that the patent only prevents the RELEASE of a competitive product, but not necessarily the DESIGN and PRODUCTION of something, meaning that Milwaukee, DeWalt, Mafell, etc, could (should?) currently be working on their own designs and waiting until Patent Expiration Day to release them?  Does that include media releases/trade shows?  Or is my understanding of the patent process completely wrong?

 

[smorgasbord]

On the patent front, this appears at first glance to be a patent for the wooden domino:https://www.patentguru.com/EP1811187B1
[attachimg=1]
Filed 2006, granted 2011

Abstract
Connecting pin for joining of two workpieces has an oblong fin (27,28) which protrudes into the longitudinal direction of the connecting pin (21) on at least one of its narrow sides (25,26). The semicircular line (29) connects the two broad sides (23,24). Longitudinal fin is pressed into pin holes which deforms when final section engages with the semicircular section.

 

[ChuckM]

That patent sketch shows exactly why I prefer the original pins, because one of the pins can register against the first milled mortise to cut the second mortise, and the second mortise to cut the third, etc. till the end of the board, in a similar manner a cross stop is supposed to work.

 

[leakyroof]

Sedge has a new video out comparing them:

  I'll have to watch it , as I own both models and can always learn more about them... [scratch chin] [scratch chin]

 

[mino]

Assuming all of the engineers and forward-thinking people haven't been run out of the company (and I have no reason to believe they have, other than in the Systainer division), the right move for Festool is to release the next version 3-6 months before the patents expire. 

There's a case for waiting to see what the competition brings to market and then matching the feature set, but the lead times don't work in Festool's favor when pricing comes into play; they would have given up too much market share by then.

Agree.
Not to mention that the Festool business model is to gte mindshare by being a "leader" of a market. One cannot lead by reacting on what the others are doing.

Speaking of patents, my current understanding is that the patent only prevents the RELEASE of a competitive product, but not necessarily the DESIGN and PRODUCTION of something, meaning that Milwaukee, DeWalt, Mafell, etc, could (should?) currently be working on their own designs and waiting until Patent Expiration Day to release them?  Does that include media releases/trade shows?  Or is my understanding of the patent process completely wrong?

You are correct, though it has nothing to do with release and everything with actual physical product sale. Patents cover only sales of stuff. So even providing a big customer a test sample ahead of the patents expiration should be fine.

Supporting R&D is actually the whole point of the patent system.
We often reduce it to the commercial part, but the whole objective is that the inventor discloses the details in exchange for a time-limited exclusivity on the market.

One can develop, present, showcase, etc. anything to anyone, just cannot sell it. Also it is quite comong that someone presents a product on a trade show after which a (well-meaning) patent holder will drop the company a cease and desist note. Many products die this way before even born.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

That new video by Sedge is pretty good at comparing the two machines, both for differences and similarities. I learned a few things I wasn't aware of which is nice, given my recent addition of a "slightly (and I do mean slightly) used" DF500 to my stable where I already own the DF700.

 

[ChuckM]

snip. the right move for Festool is to release the next version 3-6 months before the patents expire.snip.

There is no shortage of ideas on how the DF500 can be improved for both Festool and other manufacturers lurking around, waiting for their chance to dip into the potential market to be made available. Just look at the thread about the DF600, which is more or less feedback from countless hours of solid user experience. Money can't buy that kind of user feedback and suggestions. It's one thing that DF500 can be upgraded, but another if Festool thinks that some of the improvements(e.g. increased cutting depths) could kill its bigger brother.

 

[squall_line]

snip. the right move for Festool is to release the next version 3-6 months before the patents expire.snip.

There is no shortage of ideas on how the DF500 can be improved for both Festool and other manufacturers lurking around, waiting for their chance to dip into the potential market to be made available. Just look at the thread about the DF600, which is more or less feedback from countless hours of solid user experience. Money can't buy that kind of user feedback and suggestions. It's one thing that DF500 can be upgraded, but another if Festool thinks that some of the improvements(e.g. increased cutting depths) could kill its bigger brother.

The one use case that the TS75 had over the TS55 (and HK55 for that matter) was 45-degree bevel cuts on a rail with 2-by lumber.  The TS60 took care of that use case without significantly intruding on many of the other use cases for the TS75.  The TS60 may eat a sale or two from each side of the equation for people who may have otherwise gotten both to cover an edge case, but that would still be somewhat rare, I think.

I can picture a world where a DF600 (for example) and DF700 can coexist without much consternation.  For that matter, they still sell the TS55 and HK55, so a DF600 slotted between the 500 and 700 with all three on sale until the weakest one is culled from the herd would make sense, too.

 

[mino]

..
I can picture a world where a DF600 (for example) and DF700 can coexist without much consternation.  For that matter, they still sell the TS55 and HK55, so a DF600 slotted between the 500 and 700 with all three on sale until the weakest one is culled from the herd would make sense, too.

Same here.

What I can imagine is a "400" which will be up to 6mm and be cheaper to indirectly "attack" the clones, Say 3/4 the price of a 500+ as the new "base" model which will be good-enough for most sheet goods work.

I do not see a "600" arriving any time soon though.
The main demand is deeper mortices and I believe such cannot done without dropping the 4 and 5 mm sizes as these would be too-long to have the bits stable and deeper plunge depths. 42/28*4 = 6 .. meaning at same bit stability, to get to a 42 mm mortice depth one needs 6 mm thick bit instead of a 4 mm one. Approximately.

The same way that 70/28*4 = 10 mm hence the smallest 700 bits being 10 mm ..

What I see is:
- a refined 500 R model just before the patents expire with no changes in size support
- followed by a more nimble 400 to indirectly compete on price with clones with a limited 4-6 (8 ?) mm support at 28 mm
- 5 years later, depending how the market develops, a 600 which will drop the 4/5 mm bits support while expanding the depth support to 80 mm tenons and possibly also 12 mm ones.

Or something completely else.
What I cannot imagine is Festool comming up with a "600" as the step after now nor doing a re-do of the 700 sooner than a decade from now. These just do not make business sense to me.

 

[ChuckM]

The nice thing about making tool predictions is that we can all give our two cents without consequences, so we can go as wildly (boldly?) or as conservatively as we like.

I can't find the record I had from a chat with a Festool dealer before the pandemic about how many DF500s vs DF700s they had sold. Was it 1:4 or 5? More DF500s, that's. I'll talk to my source again and update it, to be sure.

I don't care what others want from a new Domino machine or clone. But, if Festool doesn't come up with a new DF500 (or DF600) with increased cutting depths, I can't justify replacing my current DF500. However, if a clone does that, it'll have my full attention, provided its weight is near the DF500's. LED? Not important...because I already have it in mine [tongue]:

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