Domino 500 Additional Stops (Update)

I got my spacers from Traxxas, they fit great on both Dominos! Here is what is included in the $4.00 set:

Part # 3769:  Spring pre-load spacers: 1mm (4)/ 2mm (2)/ 4mm (2)/ 8mm (2)  (They're even metric!)

If you need additional depth stops, you could put multiple spacers on the Domino. You can find these at a hobby shop that carries remote control cars, or at www.traxxas.com

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Recently Woodpecker sent me a set of their final Domino Depth Sleeve product.  This is a "One Time Production Tool"
Although they cost more than the plastic hobby shop clips it is a very nice kit.  It makes setting any domino depth a no brainer
because the final depth (Imperial / Metric) is etched on the sleeves.

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iamnothim said:
Recently Woodpecker sent me a set of their final Domino Depth Sleeve product.  This is a "One Time Production Tool"
Although they cost more than the plastic hobby shop clips it is a very nice kit.  It makes setting any domino depth a no brainer
because the final depth (Imperial / Metric) is etched on the sleeves.

[attachimg=1]

This "one time" mentality with Woodpeckers has completely put me off considering their tools. I don't know about other people, but I find the internet (and particularly the FOG) a great resource to identify useful things for "one day". When I read about a Woodpeckers product now I don't even bother saving the link - shame, they make some very nice stuff.

I can comprehend that it's probably their chosen avenue for business efficiency, but a good quality Chinese mimic could smack them hard with repeatable cheap production of similar products one day and then they'll be toast!
 
Hi Kev,
Not sure it's appropriate of me to reply.  But at the risk of appearing to be a Woodpecker shill here are a couple thoughts on that perception.  BTW:  I don't work for them I just like their products.  In the past I have sent Woodpecker a couple product ideas I thought they might take a look at.  I've done this to other small makers of Festool widgets.  I saw the original Domino spacers post on PVC homemade spacers.  I think it was from Rick Christopherson.  Anyway, I forwarded it to Richard Hummel and he liked the idea, bought a Domino, then sent me a prototype (Top of the thread) and later this final product. 

IMO:  I suspect it's "one time" since you can get parts for under $10 that do the same thing just not as elegant.  It's also a product with a limited buyer base.  Pretty sure all of their products are "measuring" products.  Since there's nothing in the product that can break they aren't leaving their customers flapping in the wind.  My take on it was that you end up with a unique one-of-a-kind tool.

Best,

Luke

 
iamnothim said:
Hi Kev,
Not sure it's appropriate of me to reply.  But at the risk of appearing to be a Woodpecker shill here are a couple thoughts on that perception.  BTW:  I don't work for them I just like their products.  In the past I have sent Woodpecker a couple product ideas I thought they might take a look at.  I've done this to other small makers of Festool widgets.  I saw the original Domino spacers post on PVC homemade spacers.  I think it was from Rick Christopherson.  Anyway, I forwarded it to Richard Hummel and he liked the idea, bought a Domino, then sent me a prototype (Top of the thread) and later this final product. 

IMO:  I suspect it's "one time" since you can get parts for under $10 that do the same thing just not as elegant.  It's also a product with a limited buyer base.  Pretty sure all of their products are "measuring" products.  Since there's nothing in the product that can break they aren't leaving their customers flapping in the wind.  My take on it was that you end up with a unique one-of-a-kind tool.

Best,

Luke

Hi Luke,

Please don't get me wrong - I like their tools and I have a few of them and I really respect the quality and precision. I just won't buy into this one time thing. Some will see it as an opportunity for something unique - and thats cool, but to me it's just a poor business model that shows a real lack of support for their potential customer base.

Just imagine - I see their Domino spacers and make a mental note "I know what they are and where to get them, but I have no need today". Then later I discover a use, bad luck buddy, you should have forked out for the one time offer!!!

They're not collectable Toby mugs - they're tools.

For those that address this problem by simply buying every one time tool ... how do you possibly cope with not having the ones that were released before you started collecting them [eek] [eek] [eek]

I say all this in the hope that they'll comprehend the short comings of their business model and change - then I'll embrace their products - but certainly not today ... the only business of mine they'll win is for something they offer right now that I want today.

This is all intended to be critically constructive - not simply negative.

cheers,

Kev.

 
I agree that the one-time tools are a little bit like creating demand where none exists. If you think you can't get it again, or at least easily, maybe you'll buy it just in case you need it. The Woodpecker Domino collars are something I doubt anyone would really need in the sense that you can already make them from PVC as is shown in the supplemental manual. The PVC home made collars may not be quite as precise as the Woodpecker collars, but do they really need to be? I haven't bought any one-time tools no matter how "potentially"useful they seem to be.
 
Ordered Traxxas #3769 today from Amazon. Cost including 2 day shipping w/prime for $5.97. Easy but those Woodpecker collars are sure pretty.
 
davetink said:
Ordered Traxxas #3769 today from Amazon. Cost including 2 day shipping w/prime for $5.97. Easy but those Woodpecker collars are sure pretty.

Can't argue - anodised precision aluminium and well laid out cases are perfect boys toys.

Even if they offered a "one time direct club" I'd be more inclined ... say register $200 they hold and they also guaranteed to keep all new one time tool offered for 12 months for you as a member ... exit the club by spending your club registration money on tools and relinquish your held options. At leaf that way you'd have REAL consideration time.

I'm also frustrated due to only being recently exposed to Woodpeckers and all of the cool one time tools gone buy ... and that must irritate everyone new.

Blimey ... I never realised how irritated I was by this - good to get it out! [big grin] [cool]
 
Kev said:
davetink said:
Ordered Traxxas #3769 today from Amazon. Cost including 2 day shipping w/prime for $5.97. Easy but those Woodpecker collars are sure pretty.

Can't argue - anodised precision aluminium and well laid out cases are perfect boys toys.

Even if they offered a "one time direct club" I'd be more inclined ... say register $200 they hold and they also guaranteed to keep all new one time tool offered for 12 months for you as a member ... exit the club by spending your club registration money on tools and relinquish your held options. At leaf that way you'd have REAL consideration time.

I'm also frustrated due to only being recently exposed to Woodpeckers and all of the cool one time tools gone buy ... and that must irritate everyone new.

Blimey ... I never realised how irritated I was by this - good to get it out! [big grin] [cool]

Yo Kev.

Wow!  [eek]
Woodpecker's is just a teeny tiny custom tool company in Cleveland Ohio.  Cleveland hasn't won a championship since dinosaurs roamed the planet.  They need all the positive karma they can get.

Maybe channel your aggression towards Stanley/Black & Decker.    [smile]  or....
 
C'mon Luke [eek] that's not agression ... you want aggression, come and see the way we play sport in Oz!

We've got one man premium tool manufacturers in Oz such as Colen Clenton, none of these "one time" games from people like that.

Why do you have a problem with constructive criticism?? I even suggested an alternative model and complemented their tools [blink] [huh]

On karma, you get back what you share and their model doesn't work for me and I'm sharing that so they can hopefully comprehend it.

How on earth can you interpret my feedback and comments as anything other than a person that would honestly like to buy some of their tools and blocked by their go to business model?

Read carefully back through the posts and you should understand ... if not, let's take it off line and discuss it via pm as I'm certain my point is clear to the majority here.

Kev.
 
jussi said:
If you're really interested in their one time tools you may want to call them up and see if there are any available.  I went to one of the local woodworking shows where woodpecker attended and asked about the 850 and 650 squares which were one time tools and were long since retired.  They said they have a few left and I placed my order.  Even got free shipping because I ordered it at the show.

Kev said:
davetink said:
Ordered Traxxas #3769 today from Amazon. Cost including 2 day shipping w/prime for $5.97. Easy but those Woodpecker collars are sure pretty.

Can't argue - anodised precision aluminium and well laid out cases are perfect boys toys.

Even if they offered a "one time direct club" I'd be more inclined ... say register $200 they hold and they also guaranteed to keep all new one time tool offered for 12 months for you as a member ... exit the club by spending your club registration money on tools and relinquish your held options. At leaf that way you'd have REAL consideration time.

I'm also frustrated due to only being recently exposed to Woodpeckers and all of the cool one time tools gone buy ... and that must irritate everyone new.

Blimey ... I never realised how irritated I was by this - good to get it out! [big grin] [cool]

I'm in Sydney Australia Jussi. The local reseller for Woodpeckers is rubbish and committing to one time tools in advance with Woodpeckers direct when I don't even know if I'll want it is the problem.

In this day and age it is simple to list your inventory availability online - I'm not going to get out of bed in the middle of the night to phone the US am I? That said, email would make sense.

Regardless, the point is being missed ... I want it to be easy to see something I'm interested in, recognise at a future point in time that it'll be useful and then go and push a button and buy it ... not enter into a protracted negotiation and stock hunt, gambling on whether I'll ever be able to get one!

Woodpeckers make, at various points in time, very useful gadgets, but I'll guarantee I'm not the only person that has an issue with the one time nature of their availability - and before you start defending them ... I'm expressing MY opinion and giving them an opportunity to read posts about their business model and an opportunity to change it if they choose. Nothing I'm saying will in any way alter a Woodpeckers customer opinion of their products.
 
Kev said:
jussi said:
If you're really interested in their one time tools you may want to call them up and see if there are any available.  I went to one of the local woodworking shows where woodpecker attended and asked about the 850 and 650 squares which were one time tools and were long since retired.  They said they have a few left and I placed my order.  Even got free shipping because I ordered it at the show.

Kev said:
davetink said:
Ordered Traxxas #3769 today from Amazon. Cost including 2 day shipping w/prime for $5.97. Easy but those Woodpecker collars are sure pretty.

Can't argue - anodised precision aluminium and well laid out cases are perfect boys toys.

Even if they offered a "one time direct club" I'd be more inclined ... say register $200 they hold and they also guaranteed to keep all new one time tool offered for 12 months for you as a member ... exit the club by spending your club registration money on tools and relinquish your held options. At leaf that way you'd have REAL consideration time.

I'm also frustrated due to only being recently exposed to Woodpeckers and all of the cool one time tools gone buy ... and that must irritate everyone new.

Blimey ... I never realised how irritated I was by this - good to get it out! [big grin] [cool]

I'm in Sydney Australia Jussi. The local reseller for Woodpeckers is rubbish and committing to one time tools in advance with Woodpeckers direct when I don't even know if I'll want it is the problem.

In this day and age it is simple to list your inventory availability online - I'm not going to get out of bed in the middle of the night to phone the US am I? That said, email would make sense.

Regardless, the point is being missed ... I want it to be easy to see something I'm interested in, recognise at a future point in time that it'll be useful and then go and push a button and buy it ... not enter into a protracted negotiation and stock hunt, gambling on whether I'll ever be able to get one!

Woodpeckers make, at various points in time, very useful gadgets, but I'll guarantee I'm not the only person that has an issue with the one time nature of their availability - and before you start defending them ... I'm expressing MY opinion and giving them an opportunity to read posts about their business model and an opportunity to change it if they choose. Nothing I'm saying will in any way alter a Woodpeckers customer opinion of their products.
I'm good with that. 
I have this chronic problem with not being able to convey what I'm thinking and put it in a post.  Heck, for that matter, I don't always know what I'm thinking.  (Please read signature)  Some things are flame retardant. ....  I a flame attractant.

 
Kev

That was an interesting alternative approach to 'reserve' tools. 

But it does not get around them having to carry inventory, that for some toolmakers is 'risk'.

I just went to the one-time tool page on Woodpeckers and did a quick TOTAL of all the one time tools they offered in 2013.  The total for all the tools and the various SKU's - english, metric, options, accessories, etc - was over $10,000.  Yes, even I was surprised at that number.  If we assume their manufacturing costs - materials and labor were 1/2 of that, that's $5000 in investment that Richard would have made to carry that inventory.

That's quantity ONE of all the tools and configurations they offered as one time tools for 2013.

Would you carry that inventory in return for a potential client giving you a check for $200 for them potentially buying it at some point in the next year?

Now, if you are a cabinet maker, installer or furniture maker, would you build out a room full of cabinets or furniture in hopes that a customer would come along and buy what you had made, or would you rather wait for them to give you an order, and then order your materials and plan your labor schedule?

I think that's the mindset toolmakers like Woodpeckers and Bridge City have in coming up with these business models - they operate a small business, in a tight credit market, with a fickle customer base and some would argue a declining available market. 

So they choose a business model with minimum inventory and capital at risk. 

I have taken Marc Adams School of Woodworking classes from John Economaki at Bridge City tools.  I recall him sharing what happened to his business on September 11, 2001 - it evaporated overnight - and he had a significant challenge with over 50 employees and a warehouse full of tools and raw materials. 

He faced a similar situation of business shortfall with the financial crisis in 2008, though not as severe since he did not have a manufacturing staff or a lot of finished inventory.

That's why he changed the model in order to survive risks beyond his control.

So I understand and sometimes feel the frustration you and others may have with the program and business model that these tool makers have - but I'd rather them be solvent and producing great tools that I want but have to wait for than not producing them.

Many craftspeople on the forum are in the 'build to order' model with how they run their businesses.  The tool makers do the same thing.

neil
 
neilc said:
Kev

That was an interesting alternative approach to 'reserve' tools. 

But it does not get around them having to carry inventory, that for some toolmakers is 'risk'.

I just went to the one-time tool page on Woodpeckers and did a quick TOTAL of all the one time tools they offered in 2013.  The total for all the tools and the various SKU's - english, metric, options, accessories, etc - was over $10,000.  Yes, even I was surprised at that number.  If we assume their manufacturing costs - materials and labor were 1/2 of that, that's $5000 in investment that Richard would have made to carry that inventory.

That's quantity ONE of all the tools and configurations they offered as one time tools for 2013.

Would you carry that inventory in return for a potential client giving you a check for $200 for them potentially buying it at some point in the next year?

Now, if you are a cabinet maker, installer or furniture maker, would you build out a room full of cabinets or furniture in hopes that a customer would come along and buy what you had made, or would you rather wait for them to give you an order, and then order your materials and plan your labor schedule?

I think that's the mindset toolmakers like Woodpeckers and Bridge City have in coming up with these business models - they operate a small business, in a tight credit market, with a fickle customer base and some would argue a declining available market. 

So they choose a business model with minimum inventory and capital at risk. 

I have taken Marc Adams School of Woodworking classes from John Economaki at Bridge City tools.  I recall him sharing what happened to his business on September 11, 2001 - it evaporated overnight - and he had a significant challenge with over 50 employees and a warehouse full of tools and raw materials. 

He faced a similar situation of business shortfall with the financial crisis in 2008, though not as severe since he did not have a manufacturing staff or a lot of finished inventory.

That's why he changed the model in order to survive risks beyond his control.

So I understand and sometimes feel the frustration you and others may have with the program and business model that these tool makers have - but I'd rather them be solvent and producing great tools that I want but have to wait for than not producing them.

Many craftspeople on the forum are in the 'build to order' model with how they run their businesses.  The tool makers do the same thing.

neil

I'm not sure it's the same thing at all...

For instance, what happens if my 'one-time' tool is lost, stolen, or damaged? What am I supposed to do then? IF I was ordering a custom closet system from you, I could always replace it. But my Woodpeckers 'one time' tool? Nope - you're just SOL!

If Woodpeckers wanted to offer their 'one-time' tools - say - once a year and accept commitments leading up to it, I'd be fine with that. They could even cancel the run if there wasn't enough interest. It's the idea that they *HAD* a tool that I can't HAVE or REPLACE - EVER - that ticks me off.

Maybe their business model works for them, but it doesn't work for me. I'm with Kev on this one. I have NEVER purchased a Woodpeckers tool and am NOT likely to do so - mostly because the only tools they have that I want are not available.

I am actively looking for a replacement option for stuff that I want, like a ~600mm precision square.
 
neilc said:
Kev

That was an interesting alternative approach to 'reserve' tools. 

But it does not get around them having to carry inventory, that for some toolmakers is 'risk'.

I just went to the one-time tool page on Woodpeckers and did a quick TOTAL of all the one time tools they offered in 2013.  The total for all the tools and the various SKU's - english, metric, options, accessories, etc - was over $10,000.  Yes, even I was surprised at that number.  If we assume their manufacturing costs - materials and labor were 1/2 of that, that's $5000 in investment that Richard would have made to carry that inventory.

That's quantity ONE of all the tools and configurations they offered as one time tools for 2013.

Would you carry that inventory in return for a potential client giving you a check for $200 for them potentially buying it at some point in the next year?

Now, if you are a cabinet maker, installer or furniture maker, would you build out a room full of cabinets or furniture in hopes that a customer would come along and buy what you had made, or would you rather wait for them to give you an order, and then order your materials and plan your labor schedule?

I think that's the mindset toolmakers like Woodpeckers and Bridge City have in coming up with these business models - they operate a small business, in a tight credit market, with a fickle customer base and some would argue a declining available market. 

So they choose a business model with minimum inventory and capital at risk. 

I have taken Marc Adams School of Woodworking classes from John Economaki at Bridge City tools.  I recall him sharing what happened to his business on September 11, 2001 - it evaporated overnight - and he had a significant challenge with over 50 employees and a warehouse full of tools and raw materials. 

He faced a similar situation of business shortfall with the financial crisis in 2008, though not as severe since he did not have a manufacturing staff or a lot of finished inventory.

That's why he changed the model in order to survive risks beyond his control.

So I understand and sometimes feel the frustration you and others may have with the program and business model that these tool makers have - but I'd rather them be solvent and producing great tools that I want but have to wait for than not producing them.

Many craftspeople on the forum are in the 'build to order' model with how they run their businesses.  The tool makers do the same thing.

neil

Neil,

There you have it - "build to order" would be fine, but it's not offered. It's buy it now whether you think you need it or not, otherwise miss out forever. That's more like a ransom model than a build to order model. I'd have no issue with the approach for art or collectables - but they're tools for a purpose.

Frustration? Yes, of course. Why else would I spend the time trying to CONSTRUCTIVELY explain why it doesn't work for me and why it doesn't (I'm not unique).

It seems no matter how much I stress the issue, there's someone that would rather defend the model rather than simply acknowledge that it doesn't work for many people. I just happen to be someone making noise about it - so many would just ignore it and it would never be apparent.

If I could make a few obvious points ....

1. Woodpeckers tools are really cool and there's far more potential demand for them over time than they are willing to support due to their limited cash flow and flexibility.
2. If their tools were possibly a little cheaper and more readily available, more would be sold across the globe.
3. Business people in "low cost production ready" economic locations are always looking for opportunities and "knock off" targets.
4. "Demand" has a habit of being satisfied ... it's a basic economic principle.

Rather than see Woodpeckers evolve, would you prefer that their tools were copied by a Chinese manufacturer and sold more cheaply round the world and grey marketed back into the US ... likely sending Woodpeckers out of business?

Now I really hope you don't think I'm stupid enough to expect an organisation to mortgage $5,000 worth of inventory based on a token $~200 club fee ... a soft commitment model and a logical bit of math and policy would come in to play. Obviously!! There's tons of options, including holding deposit models ... $5 for a month for a specific tool, $15 for a quarter etc, etc if they still want to play those non standard sort of go to market games. I could rattle of a dozen different scenarios.

I deal with with massive institutions on a daily basis, full of people telling me why something isn't possible and it take weeks and months to make them realise alternatives exist. This is no different. Alternative exist, change is possible.

I really can't comprehend why people focus only on explaining why something is the way it is and how it has to stay that way because, because, because ... Things are always the way they are because of a series of events, decisions, circumstances, etc. That doesn't eliminate the opportunity to improve. Also, most importantly, you have to anticipate change. Not doing so is the reason most people and organisations fail.

Enough soap box for me today. [wink]

 
wow said:
neilc said:
Kev

That was an interesting alternative approach to 'reserve' tools. 

But it does not get around them having to carry inventory, that for some toolmakers is 'risk'.

I just went to the one-time tool page on Woodpeckers and did a quick TOTAL of all the one time tools they offered in 2013.  The total for all the tools and the various SKU's - english, metric, options, accessories, etc - was over $10,000.  Yes, even I was surprised at that number.  If we assume their manufacturing costs - materials and labor were 1/2 of that, that's $5000 in investment that Richard would have made to carry that inventory.

That's quantity ONE of all the tools and configurations they offered as one time tools for 2013.

Would you carry that inventory in return for a potential client giving you a check for $200 for them potentially buying it at some point in the next year?

Now, if you are a cabinet maker, installer or furniture maker, would you build out a room full of cabinets or furniture in hopes that a customer would come along and buy what you had made, or would you rather wait for them to give you an order, and then order your materials and plan your labor schedule?

I think that's the mindset toolmakers like Woodpeckers and Bridge City have in coming up with these business models - they operate a small business, in a tight credit market, with a fickle customer base and some would argue a declining available market. 

So they choose a business model with minimum inventory and capital at risk. 

I have taken Marc Adams School of Woodworking classes from John Economaki at Bridge City tools.  I recall him sharing what happened to his business on September 11, 2001 - it evaporated overnight - and he had a significant challenge with over 50 employees and a warehouse full of tools and raw materials. 

He faced a similar situation of business shortfall with the financial crisis in 2008, though not as severe since he did not have a manufacturing staff or a lot of finished inventory.

That's why he changed the model in order to survive risks beyond his control.

So I understand and sometimes feel the frustration you and others may have with the program and business model that these tool makers have - but I'd rather them be solvent and producing great tools that I want but have to wait for than not producing them.

Many craftspeople on the forum are in the 'build to order' model with how they run their businesses.  The tool makers do the same thing.

neil

I'm not sure it's the same thing at all...

For instance, what happens if my 'one-time' tool is lost, stolen, or damaged? What am I supposed to do then? IF I was ordering a custom closet system from you, I could always replace it. But my Woodpeckers 'one time' tool? Nope - you're just SOL!

If Woodpeckers wanted to offer their 'one-time' tools - say - once a year and accept commitments leading up to it, I'd be fine with that. They could even cancel the run if there wasn't enough interest. It's the idea that they *HAD* a tool that I can't HAVE or REPLACE - EVER - that ticks me off.

Maybe their business model works for them, but it doesn't work for me. I'm with Kev on this one. I have NEVER purchased a Woodpeckers tool and am NOT likely to do so - mostly because the only tools they have that I want are not available.

I am actively looking for a replacement option for stuff that I want, like a ~600mm precision square.

BINGO!
[big grin]
 
iamnothim said:
"ELVIS has left the thread......"

I choked on my beer [big grin]

One day we'll have forums where everyone's piece will be a little video tile with genuine conversation - I reckon that'll be a hoot ...

... particularly with Luke in his Elvis costume [wink]
 
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