Domino centers that work like the dowel centers?

[ChuckM]

Did anyone look into the possibility of creating a jig or "Domino Centers" that would allow a DF500 or 700 user to locate a matching mortise to one that has already been cut? If that is technically possible, two sets -- one for the standard/narrow mortises and one for the wide mortises -- should be good enough for each model.

Have any third-party DJ accessories producers look into this?

Chuck

 

[clark_fork]

Simple Solution:

Insert a dowel screw into a set of Dominos. These on center will act the same way as a dimpled dowel hole finder. Insert, press them onto the mating piece and you will locate the proposed slot. Make a set for each size Domino.

[attachimg=1]

 

[ChuckM]

Thanks, Clark.

Assuming I can get the screw (I was thinking of a nail before) dead centered in a Domino (not a simple task), how do I align the DJ to it cut precisely the mortise, based on just a dimple (center point) that has been made on the mating board?

Chuck

 

[Cheese]

You'd have to extend at least 1 vertical line from the pimple and possibly 2 lines if the fence is being used in the horizontal position.

 

[ChuckM]

That kind of method -- relying on the fact that the center of the cutter is 10mm from the base -- which I have used is slow and I am hoping for a more consistent, repetitive and simple solution.

Chuck

 

[clark_fork]

Set a square precisely on the dot, then draw a line up to the top edge of the mating piece. Then lay the square to pick up the vertical line and draw across the top of the mating piece. Then you can center on the line, cut the slot, declare victory and go home..

The 90 degree Incra rule may help with finding the guide line on the top of the piece from the vertical line. A .5 mechanical pencil works in those tiny slots.

Expanded Domino slots.. duck tape to the rescue or sand down from the next larger size to fit the expanded slot, then mount the dowel screw.

 

[clark_fork]

That kind of method -- relying on the fact that the center of the cutter is 10mm from base -- which I have used is slow and I am hoping for a more consistent, repetitive and simple solution.

Chuck

I agree it is slow. Next idea is to simply mount a Domino into a thin  block of wood with a center line running vertically on the opposite side. Just plug the Domino in and match up the mating piece. mark the center.
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[Klemm]

we love problems - because it gives us the opportunity to develop and offer solutions.
If this continuing thread indicates that a commercial solution would be welcome, we will pursue it in earnest.
If anyone wants to be an advisssor on this project, please PM me
Hans

 

[bkharman]

we love problems - because it gives us the opportunity to develop and offer solutions.
If this continuing thread indicates that a commercial solution would be welcome, we will pursue it in earnest.
If anyone wants to be an advisssor on this project, please PM me
Hans

Hans,

You could have an aluminum domino with a point on it to mark the spot on the next piece.  I personally don't see the value in it (no offense to the OP) as I hopefully had marked both pieces before I morticed them.  [wink] 

to the OP:
Even if you have to come back and mortice after the fact, you should be able to measure to the edge of the domino hole, add in half of the domino width and then mark the center line.

Once you get used to using the Domino, you will adjust your workflow.  I always double check depth, center line and height as well as that both workpieces have the reference marked so I don't make a mistake... Not saying it hasn't happened, but when it does, it is 99.9% my fault!!

Enjoy the machine, they are great things!

Cheers.  Bryan.

 

[Cheese]

I agree with Bryan, it's easier to go edge to edge than center to center.  [smile]

 

[ChuckM]

Thanks, Cheese & Bryan, for your inputs.

I might not have described my needs in detail or provided enough background, leading to your responses that do not address the problem I encountered.

In the attached photo, you can see a joint I recently made (using the 10mm baseline approach) and there was not a lot of registration or surface area to layout lines, etc. I am hoping for an accessory that would allow me to cut matching mortises quickly and precisely even if the registration edge is not available (as in the case of a dowel center for a dowel hole -- no registration edge is needed to work).

In other words, I want a solution that does not rely on meticulous measuring, marking lines, etc. to enable me to cut a matching mortise. That tedious measuring/marking solution is already available but is not a good one if we have many matching mortises to do. In my project, I had to cut 24 matching mortises which, if they were dowel holes, could have been finished in 1/10 of the time, if not less, using a dowel center.

Chuck
PS To cut all the mortises first on a square blank (and the legs) before turning the blank into a hexagonal post is one option, but it requires the cutting/sawing to be dead-on precise and accurate, not something most hobby shops or set-ups can do. If the post is off by a little, the leg would not be centered on the face.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I'm totally with Chuckm.  The edge to edge method works fine for rectangles with lots of registration space, but not so good for curves and small or odd shaped pieces.

Imagine your client wants a curved vertical piece attached to a flat horizontal piece - often found in Krenov style cabinets or coopered pieces.  Often found in chairs or studio furniture style tables.  Its a piece of cake with dowels, a real head scratcher for dominoes.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Thanks, Cheese & Bryan, for your inputs.

I might not have described my needs in detail or provided enough background, leading to your responses that do not address the problem I encountered.

In the attached photo, you can see a joint I recently made (using the 10mm baseline approach) and there was not a lot of registration or surface area to layout lines, etc. I am hoping for an accessory that would allow me to cut matching mortises quickly and precisely even if the registration edge is not available (as in the case of a dowel center for a dowel hole -- no registration edge is needed to work).

In other words, I want a solution that does not rely on meticulous measuring, marking lines, etc. to enable me to cut a matching mortise. That solution is already available but is not a good one if we have many matching mortises to do. In my project, I had to cut 24 matching mortises which, if they were dowel holes, could have been finished in 1/10 of the time, if not less, using a dowel center.

Chuck
PS To cut all the mortises first on a square blank (and the legs) before turning the blank into a hexagonal post is one option, but it requires the cutting/sawing to be dead-on precise and accurate, not something most hobby shops or set-ups can do. If the post is off by a little, the leg would not be centered on the face.

So the simple solution would be a Domino shaped dowel center?
Or a bunch of them...

This is something someone with a 3D printer could do.
Print the form with a precise hole in the center for a sharpened pin or marking blade.
X-acto makes square edged blades that would make a line rather than a tiny dot.

If it works someone could machine more durable aluminum versions.

 

[clark_fork]

Thanks, Cheese & Bryan, for your inputs.

I might not have described my needs in detail or provided enough background, leading to your responses that do not address the problem I encountered.

In the attached photo, you can see a joint I recently made (using the 10mm baseline approach) and there was not a lot of registration or surface area to layout lines, etc. I am hoping for an accessory that would allow me to cut matching mortises quickly and precisely even if the registration edge is not available (as in the case of a dowel center for a dowel hole -- no registration edge is needed to work).

In other words, I want a solution that does not rely on meticulous measuring, marking lines, etc. to enable me to cut a matching mortise. That solution is already available but is not a good one if we have many matching mortises to do. In my project, I had to cut 24 matching mortises which, if they were dowel holes, could have been finished in 1/10 of the time, if not less, using a dowel center.

Chuck
PS To cut all the mortises first on a square blank (and the legs) before turning the blank into a hexagonal post is one option, but it requires the cutting/sawing to be dead-on precise and accurate, not something most hobby shops or set-ups can do. If the post is off by a little, the leg would not be centered on the face.

Now I see the challenge:

Another approach is to work with a jig with spacers. This way you register off the side. No measure, no checking. Just place the piece and cut the mortise.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[bkharman]

Thanks, Cheese & Bryan, for your inputs.

I might not have described my needs in detail or provided enough background, leading to your responses that do not address the problem I encountered.

In the attached photo, you can see a joint I recently made (using the 10mm baseline approach) and there was not a lot of registration or surface area to layout lines, etc. I am hoping for an accessory that would allow me to cut matching mortises quickly and precisely even if the registration edge is not available (as in the case of a dowel center for a dowel hole -- no registration edge is needed to work).

In other words, I want a solution that does not rely on meticulous measuring, marking lines, etc. to enable me to cut a matching mortise. That solution is already available but is not a good one if we have many matching mortises to do. In my project, I had to cut 24 matching mortises which, if they were dowel holes, could have been finished in 1/10 of the time, if not less, using a dowel center.

Chuck
PS To cut all the mortises first on a square blank (and the legs) before turning the blank into a hexagonal post is one option, but it requires the cutting/sawing to be dead-on precise and accurate, not something most hobby shops or set-ups can do. If the post is off by a little, the leg would not be centered on the face.

Thanks for the further detail Chuck.  I get it now.

I agree that having a reference from Domino would be a cool accessory and hope someone decides to prototype it.  I can imagine it being two parts.  One is the false Domino to go in the centering hole.  The other would be some sort of "block" for the difference off the bottom of the fence or the edge to get them parallel.  Not sure it would be elegant, but would work.my other suggestion would be to reference the paddles/pins/extensions whenever possible... or go for it using a dowel.  The Festools we own and love are great for their task... but sometimes there is a better way!

Keep us posted if you come up with something.

Cheers.  Bryan.

PS: I thought about it a bit more, and it would work OK for wider arrangements, but if you wanted the Dominos, say 10 mm apart (edge --> edge) then it wouldn't be an option.

 

[Klemm]

Like Clark said earlier : "now I get it"
one of the questions in my mind relates to the required length of our new  "DOMIcenterFinder". In order for the tool to bottom out in the mortise serving as the Master, you would need different lengths in the tool body  - no?
The other alternative would involve a very thing shoulder on the tool for the purpose of limiting/stopping the tool body from going into the Master mortise any deeper than, say 12mm. Can't say that I feel I am onto a practical solution, yet.
Hans

 

[ChuckM]

Thanks for all the suggestions since my last post. I will review them and whatever other inputs (the more the better) that may come their way, after I come back (going away for a week).

As for this: "In order for the tool to bottom out in the mortise serving as the Master, you would need different lengths in the tool body  - no?". A dowel center doesn't need to be as long as the hole is deep in order to work. May be I misunderstood, otherwise it is the different widths and thicknesses that need to be taken care of (it is diameters in the case of dowel centers).

Chuck

 

[Gregor]

In the attached photo, you can see a joint I recently made (using the 10mm baseline approach) and there was not a lot of registration or surface area to layout lines, etc. I am hoping for an accessory that would allow me to cut matching mortises quickly and precisely even if the registration edge is not available (as in the case of a dowel center for a dowel hole -- no registration edge is needed to work).

In other words, I want a solution that does not rely on meticulous measuring, marking lines, etc. to enable me to cut a matching mortise. That tedious measuring/marking solution is already available but is not a good one if we have many matching mortises to do. In my project, I had to cut 24 matching mortises which, if they were dowel holes, could have been finished in 1/10 of the time, if not less, using a dowel center.

A Picture can be more descriptive than many words:
[attachimg=1]
The only marking needed on the two pieces would be the blue line, the rest is done with fence height setting and by indexing with the pins.

The cross stops (498590) can also come handy at times.

PS: Some dowel center marker clones would be IMHO a step back from how the domino is intended to be used.

Gregor

 

[Cheese]

If this was my project, I'd start by Dominoing from the initial square structure of the leg (using the hard edge of the leg as a datum). At that time you could also use that dimension as a datum to domino the mortises into the rail by clamping a spacer of suitable thickness to the rail to maintain the same distance. Then I'd pare down the legs to their final hexagonal profile. That way all the mortises are located from a hard edge which is definable and a constant...until you eliminate that hard edge, through the leg shaping process.

 

[bdiemer]

Like Cheese, my thinking is to do all the joinery I can while the components are still square. I then shape around the joinery.