Domino end stops

[Dixon Peer]

I went to the show in Somerset, New Jersey and stopped by the Force Machinery exhibit to talk to the Festool people about the inaccuracy problem with the Domino end stops, or hammerhead attachments as I like to call them.  The Festool employee I chatted with was very accommodating and we set up his demonstration machine with the end stops.  He checked everything over very carefully, and proceeded to cut mortises in two boards, starting with the narrowest setting for the first mortise in each board for registration, then changing to the mid-sized setting for the rest of the slots.  After stepping down each board for about six mortises, we compared the two for register and they ran out probably about two to three millimeters by the sixth slot.  That's the same thing that happens with my machine in my shop.  This is not the way the thing is supposed to work.

The Festool employee seemed a little rattled by this (there were some potential customers watching) and asked for my name and phone number.  He said he'd work on this problem and call me when he figured it out.  So far, no call.

I know others of you that frequent this forum have had the same problem.  It seems to me that Festool should figure out what's wrong or give me a Kapex  ;D.

 

[Brice Burrell]

  Dixon, this has recently been discussed here, the conclusion is they are not perfect. They aren't meant to be as precise as the Domino's built in pins. With care and the two larger mortise settings the cross stops (the proper name) work. I have no issue with this and I will continue to use them.

 

[Eli]

Same.

 

[ohkipp]

Dixon,

Or shop invested in two complete domino systems and we didn't catch this for about three weeks into several projects. We at first were puzzled because we just knew it was something we were doing wrong. Well after several mock ups we found exactly what you did. At first I was really P.O. . I have a shop full of Festool and I have come to rely on there quality from top to bottom. I have even been on this forum defending quality vs price and all that. I felt very let down that the precision and quality had missed its mark on this particular item. I built a jig and created a work around for the problem but I have to admit that any purchases in the future for Festool will not be quick ones. Festool did miss the mark here but knowing the Company I will sit back and watch and see if they come through like I think they will.

Kip

 

[fidelfs]

Just my 2 cents.

My take in Festool is all the main parts, motors, guides, blades, etc are exceptional.  The attachments in some equipments are not up to par.

I know they make their own tools but I wonder if they outsource the accessories to a third party.  I know they should have a quality control if this is the case but I don't see any other reason.

I have used the Domino and I think is one of the best tools close to the TS55.  The stops are flimsy, hard to install if you compare how easy is to change the bit for example. In one word they are different species.  ???

 

[brandon.nickel]

My first attempt with this same scenario ended badly, but I determined it was user error.  I prefer tight mortises to the wider setting, at least on one side of the joint.  So, I ran a series of narrow mortises down one panel with ~150mm spacing.  Then I ran down the second panel using the middle setting and the same 150mm spacing.  I ended up with mortises that weren't even close.  Turns out the pins index off the edge of previous mortise, so if you make your mortise wider, so becomes your spacing.  I ended up having to recut almost all the mortises using pencil marks.  Worked like a charm then, but I'm now wary about using the attachments.  I don't want to use tight mortises all the way down and it seems silly to cut two medium sized mortises when at least one of them could be tight.  I suppose I could alway compensate the spacing for the difference in mortise width, but why do to that much trouble when a few strokes of the pencil means I don't even have to put the attachment on...?

 

[Dixon Peer]

  Dixon, this has recently been discussed here, the conclusion is they are not perfect. They aren't meant to be as precise as the Domino's built in pins. With care and the two larger mortise settings the cross stops (the proper name) work. I have no issue with this and I will continue to use them.

Brice:

That is ridiculous.  They are meant to be precise.

 

[clintholeman]

When I cut a bunch of mortises using the stop, I cut them all using the narrow setting, then go back and cut the inside mortises using the wider [middle] setting and have found that works fine, takes minimal time and have had no problems with that system.

 

[Warrior]

I have to agree with Dixon on this. If the cross stops weren't meant to be accurate they should have told us before we bought them with the expectation of accuracy.

Eiji

 

[Dan Clermont]

The Domino has been a real time saver in my shop. I always start with the Domino set to the narrowest setting and I do this so both pieces are registered and will line up properly. After I finish cutting the first mortise I switch to the next width to prevent either inaccuracy from the Domino machine itself or a bone head move I may make when cutting a mortise.

The Domino are so tight when installed in the mortise I couldn't imagine trying to cut 5 or 6 of them down the length of a board and  expecting them not to drift or having a lack of concentration and screwing it up.

I think the accuracy is in the tightness of the Domino when installed in the mortise and not the cross stops.

If any of you want to sell your Domino's I know several people who would take them off your hands .... seriously.

Dan Clermont

 

[Warrior]

Hello,
It is not the Domino we have a problem with. It is the cross stops. And I am willing to sell those to anyone. Cheap.

 

[Warrior]

Festool should recall all the cross stops and the FS-KS. I think everything else works pretty well.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Can anyone explain to me why you need to have each and every mortise on a board cut using the narrowest setting on the Domino?

I am having a hard time figuring out an application where this is necessary.

Not trying to be argumentative here but I don't understand why people wouldn't want a bit of "wiggle room" on the mortices once you've cut your registration mortise using the narrowest setting.

Thanks
Dan Clermont

 

[Eli]

I agree with that as well. We've already had this entire argument. They don't work for you Eiji. They work fine for some. I'm well pleased with them and when I'm doing more than three in a row, I just use pencil marks and a wider setting. Really, it's nitpicking for such an amazing tool.

 

[spikfot]

Can anyone explain to me why you need to have each and every mortise on a board cut using the narrowest setting on the Domino?

I am having a hard time figuring out an application where this is necessary.

Not trying to be argumentative here but I don't understand why people wouldn't want a bit of "wiggle room" on the mortices once you've cut your registration mortise using the narrowest setting.

Thanks
Dan Clermont

  Dan,
  As you said, for glue-ups, one tight locating dom. is enough. 
  For most, vertically installed doms, i.e., load bearing joints, or blind tenons, the doms should to be tight.
  But at this point, the most blind tenons I have done in one workpiece (table leg) is 8, no need for side extendos. 
  I have had the allignment problem in a big way, I resorted to shaving 5mm. from the doms i was using, (as the glue was drying).  out of around 200 doms, I shaved about 40-50.
  Trusting flimsy plastic doodads is a no-no, Made in Germany or elsewhere. Glad I didn't pay much for them.
  I know, don't say it. DRY FIT FIRST. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

I have to agree with Dixon on this. If the cross stops weren't meant to be accurate they should have told us before we bought them with the expectation of accuracy.

Eiji

Somehow Festool should make it clear that the cross stop is a "guide" to assist in quickly placing a series of motises in conjunction with the wider mortise settings.

This kind of measuring system is inherently flawed which necessitates the wide mortise's. As has been pointed out before, this system is akin to measuring a room with a foot long ruler. Tiny errors and deviation in practice will accumulate into greater error.

Even if the crossstop was precision machined from steel and exactly right in spacing in regard to the bit you would still need to use the wider mortise settings (though maybe not the widest setting until the joint is more than a few feet long). If you pull the pin a little firmer in the first slot going on direction than the other then the mortises won't match. Even something as seemingly insignificant as the wood's grain direction will cause a significant cumulative error if the joint is long enough.

If, in practice, you find a consistent difference in spacing of mortises depending on which direction you are working, try changing the registration pressure (the pin in the mortise) to counteract the difference. In the direction that tends to "go long" try less registration pressure. In the direction that tends to fall short, pull the pin tighter in the mortise.

If the joint is very long make a few measured registration marks and pre-mortise them (at medium setting) as fresh starting points to zero out the cumulative error.

 

[Brice Burrell]

  , this has recently been discussed here, the conclusion is they are not perfect. They aren't meant to be as precise as the Domino's built in pins. With care and the two larger mortise settings the cross stops (the proper name) work. I have no issue with this and I will continue to use them.

Brice:

That is ridiculous.  They are meant to be precise.

To add to what Michael wrote.

 If I an remembering correctly that was Festool's response. Here is my take on this issue, the Domino is a very precise tools. I had to make a small adjustment to the locating pin, eccentric screw makes very fine adjustments to the pin to perfectly dial in the mortise location. This kind of adjustability is necessary for the precision the Domino needs. So why do you think when the Domino's pins in the fixed metal base need this degree adjustability to maintain the precision that a long, adjustable, relatively flimsy piece plastic can match this accuracy? If the cross stops are used as intended they work, but with less accuracy that the built in pins, but they do work. As I pointed out in the last thread, the Festool test drive video for the Domino very clearly shows the cross stops being used the right way. Only the first mortise in both pieces use the narrowest setting then the following mortises use the larger mortises. Right in the video they said this is to account for inaccuracies, Festool wasn't trying to hide this from anyone. I know we pay a lot of money for this stuff but that doesn't mean we don't have to be realistic about our expectations.

 

[HowardH]

I didn't have this problem with my x-stops.  They seem to work pretty well for me, however, I have taken to use the pencil method rather than the x-stops.  I can go pretty quickly and with a high degree of accuracy as well and the dominoes fit on the narrowest settting.

 

[Dixon Peer]

I agree with that as well. We've already had this entire argument. They don't work for you Eiji. They work fine for some. I'm well pleased with them and when I'm doing more than three in a row, I just use pencil marks and a wider setting. Really, it's nitpicking for such an amazing tool.

With regards to the nitpicking statement:  It's not.  Festool makes very good portable, small power tools.  They sell their tools as being the best, and they are in many regards.  They are selling a "system" with components that are designed to increase one's productivity, and for the most part they do just that.  But, in the case of the "cross stop", something is wrong; it does not do what they (Festool) say it is supposed to do.  Therefore, they need to either change their marketing of the attachment or fix it so it does what THEY say it does.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

I didn't have this problem with my x-stops.  They seem to work pretty well for me, however, I have taken to use the pencil method rather than the x-stops.  I can go pretty quickly and with a high degree of accuracy as well and the dominoes fit on the narrowest settting.

Ditto for me.  I used the cross stops a couple of times with plywood.  Both times some debris in the holes parallel to the plies threw the spacing off.  So I had to go back and redo some of the mortises.  So from then on, I simply place the pieces together and run a pencil mark across both, then use the Domino.  The joints fit well, even with 11 mortises at the narrowest setting with the 5 mm bit in each piece across a 5 ft length.  So for me, the cross stops end up taking at least as much time to use since I have to bend down and check each previous mortice to ensure no debris is throwing off the registration for the next mortise down the line.  But otherwise, I am very pleased with my Domino machine.

Dave R.