Drill Bits Falling Out of Chuck...

[jmbfestool]

It happens to me too, and you are correct--it is from being stupid.  [big grin] It is not the chuck, it is the operator not inspecting the bit they just installed. Contrary to intuition, it is actually caused from the chuck gripping too well.

This happens with non-round shanks, like hex and tri-flat bits, and the operator closes the jaws by running the drill and holding the bit. The jaws have enough immediate grip that they will catch the lobes or points on the shank and begin tightening against them. A chuck with less immediate grip will allow the bit to slip a fraction of a turn to align the flats with the jaws.

If you have caught the lobes or points on the leading, or uphill side, the bit will stay locked in place while under load (e.g. while drilling), but as soon as the load is removed, the bit will relax in the jaws and re-seat the way it should have been set. This is what makes people think that the chuck suddenly let go of the bit--because it held it long enough to begin heavy drilling.

To stop this from happening, simply get yourself into the habit of looking at the flats of the bit as you begin to tighten the chuck.

P.S. The faster the drill is spinning while you are closing the jaws down (like going from a large shank to a small shank bit, and the drill is spinning really fast because you are too impatient  [big grin]) the closer to aligned the jaws can be with the flats, while still being non-aligned. The jaws grip so hard, so fast, that they can grip the bit just barely skewed off the flats. However, in these cases, the bit usually pops loose as soon as you begin drilling--not after a lot of drilling.

The image below shows the jaws gripping a hex shank bit, but gripping it on the points.

I missed this post!    This can only happen with hex and I always check I can even feel if it hits the corners thats how often I change my Hex bits. Clever isnt it! I do is so quickly I  run the drill feel that is hasnt got the flat bits I then run the drill the other way quickly then front again some times I do it 3 times because I am doing it to quick and 2 times the chuck catches the corners.Often well nearly always if the chuck only grips the corners the bit wont be straight and would wobble so you know your self the bit isnt in correctly and would adjust it!  Im sure alot of peole are aware of the chuck only gripping the corners!  

Well thats why I used a large round drill bit as this can not happen!   I didnt use a small bit cus you can get it of centre and only 2 of the grips on the chuck catch the bit which again while cause to wobble as its not in the centre!  Using a large bit like I did non of the above can happen as their is no room for the bit to try and slip out of line  basically the bit will always self align into the centre because it its larger size!

JMB

 

[tbellemare]

Chris:

I don't think it's unusual to have to hand tighten a keyless chuck after it has been run up and the bit is properly oriented. I started this thread because I've run across a lot of people who think using the motor to tighten the chuck is enough and it isn't on any chuck I've ever used, keyed or keyless.

What brought it to the front of my mind is that I loaned the guy across the street my T 15 and a 5/8" bit with 1/2" reduced shaft to drill some holes in his vintage Airstream structure for wiring. When I went over to see how things were going, I picked up the drill and the bit fell out. I asked him how he tightened it, already knowing the answer... He ran it up with the motor and called it good.

That's what started all this and now I'm kind of sorry I even brought it up.

Tom

 

[jmbfestool]

I've owned or used pretty much every cordless and corded drill out there over the last 40 years. The bit falls out of almost every drill at some time or another. Yes, bits have fallen out of my T15. However, I can't say that bits fall out of the T15 or C12 any more frequently than any other brand drill. Being in a rush and not tightening properly, sudden reverse spin and high torqueing seem to be the root causes of the chuck loosening enough for the bit to fall out. I can't agree that this is a bigger problem with Festool chucks.

I am afraid to say 40 years is along time! And dare I say it yours might be human error if you have had a bit fall out on every drill! Now once would be human error but occasionally would be the chuck  drills have moved on and all new drills now with a ratchet chuck WILL NOT fall out I have never a drill bit fall out of my bosch ratchet chuck and never had a bit fall out of my Milwueakee!  With the festool Chuck it isn't once its almost every other time which means its the chuck not human error you have to make sure its extremely tight and it still falls out!  I dont understand why people dont get it.

Sorry!

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

Chris:

I don't think it's unusual to have to hand tighten a keyless chuck after it has been run up and the bit is properly oriented. I started this thread because I've run across a lot of people who think using the motor to tighten the chuck is enough and it isn't on any chuck I've ever used, keyed or keyless.

What brought it to the front of my mind is that I loaned the guy across the street my T 15 and a 5/8" bit with 1/2" reduced shaft to drill some holes in his vintage Airstream structure for wiring. When I went over to see how things were going, I picked up the drill and the bit fell out. I asked him how he tightened it, already knowing the answer... He ran it up with the motor and called it good.

That's what started all this and now I'm kind of sorry I even brought it up.

Tom

No No!   It is a problem! You should I would of properly brought it up at some point!

  I think some of the older people here are use to the old drills where you have to tighten the drill by hand really tight no offence! Like some one mentioned using two hands to tighten the chuck I have never owned a drill which requires two hands all my drills always have had a stop so the drill wont turn unless I pull the trigger! Any way the NEW chucks don't require as much pressure to give a good grip a simple medium hold with the spin of the drill should hold the bits for most jobs and if not a simple turn of the hand to tighten it a little more but the festool chuck always requires hand turn and a lot more pressure than normal chucks to hold well.

New festool T15 is considered a NEW drill to me! but for some reason when the drill came out they brought out a OLD style none ratcheting chuck even though all new drills came with a ratcheting chuck as well as a LED  but festool decided to make a good drill but hey we put a OLD style chuck on and wont add a LED light on it even though this drill is designed to go in tight spaces where light might be required we wont add a LED light.

I think the problem is a lot bigger than we think I think a lot of people have had this problem with the bit falling out because why do festool now Sell the T15 with a ratchet chuck?!?!?!

JMB

 

[Brice Burrell]

......That's what started all this and now I'm kind of sorry I even brought it up.

Tom

Tom, don't be sorry.  Despite some rudeness this thread has been helpful.  We now know this is an issue (real or perceived it doesn't matter) for some users. Furthermore, we know that Festool has addressed this issue with a new chuck (and at least one US user had the new chuck included with his T15). 

I'll sum up my experience with Festool the chucks on my T15 drills (both the older and new ratcheting chucks), I like the newer DeWalt keyless chucks way better....

 

[AlexThePalex]

That's what started all this and now I'm kind of sorry I even brought it up.

Ok, I don't get this. Why are you sorry now ? Because something is actually discussed? Because it's not just a thread where everybody is agreeing with each other and patting each other on the back? What's wrong with discussing matters? A good discussion is a win-win situation for everybody. Nothing wrong with it because hearing people's opinions about matters can only lead to all of us being better informed. I don't get why a lot of Americans try to avoid discussions like it's the plague. That must be something cultural indeed, unlike that totally uncalled for comment by Rick Christopherson. There was nothing rude about Deansocial's comment, unlike the response.

I've run across a lot of people who think using the motor to tighten the chuck is enough and it isn't on any chuck I've ever used, keyed or keyless.

Tightening it on the motor alone is not enough, I agree on that ..... you always have to put in some extra force by hand. But the amount of force on this Festool chuck is just too much, it is a lot more than with the competition. In a way torturous much, because I feel I have to twist it through the electric brake. I clearly noticed the difference the first week I used my T15. And the moment I learned how nice the ratcheting Protool chuck worked I wanted to get that one for my T15. I was really disappointed by the idea that my 617 euro Festool drill had a flaw which I needed to spend another 52 euro on to make it right. If Festool really had this great service they should acknowledge when they make a mistake and try to correct it instead of leaving disappointed people with only the option to spend more money.

Anyway, if there was nothing wrong with the chuck why did they replace it? Just for giggles?
 

 

[jmbfestool]

Tightening it on the motor alone is not enough, I agree on that ..... you always have to put in some extra force by hand. But the amount of force on this Festool chuck is just too much, it is a lot more than with the competition. In a way torturous much, because I feel I have to twist it through the electric brake. I clearly noticed the difference the first week I used my T15. And the moment I learned how nice the ratcheting Protool chuck worked I wanted to get that one for my T15. I was really disappointed by the idea that my 617 euro Festool drill had a flaw which I needed to spend another 52 euro on to make it right. If Festool really had this great service they should acknowledge when they make a mistake and try to correct it instead of leaving disappointed people with only the option to spend more money.

Anyway, if there was nothing wrong with the chuck why did they replace it? Just for giggles?
 

Yes just what im trying to get through!  Felt like it was just Me Dean and Chris every one els didn't seem to understand its all seems to be blamed on human error.   Ricks comment and thinking he had the answer to all the problems was annoying got me abit high rated lol So im sorry if I was being rude!

Im not happy that festool have brought out a new chuck and not offered current owners the chuck or atleast at some discount because they knew their old one was rubbish it will cost me money now.  From now on im not buying any new festool tools for at least 1 year as it only cost you more money and I would recommend everybody to do the same. Just like the Carvex I got it the day it came out in the UK wish I didnt.  Its not worth having new things straight away!

JMB

 

[Deansocial]

Tightening it on the motor alone is not enough, I agree on that ..... you always have to put in some extra force by hand. But the amount of force on this Festool chuck is just too much, it is a lot more than with the competition. In a way torturous much, because I feel I have to twist it through the electric brake. I clearly noticed the difference the first week I used my T15. And the moment I learned how nice the ratcheting Protool chuck worked I wanted to get that one for my T15. I was really disappointed by the idea that my 617 euro Festool drill had a flaw which I needed to spend another 52 euro on to make it right. If Festool really had this great service they should acknowledge when they make a mistake and try to correct it instead of leaving disappointed people with only the option to spend more money.

Anyway, if there was nothing wrong with the chuck why did they replace it? Just for giggles?
 

Yes just what im trying to get through!  Felt like it was just Me Dean and Chris every one els didn't seem to understand its all seems to be blamed on human error.   Ricks comment and thinking he had the answer to all the problems was annoying got me abit high rated lol So im sorry if I was being rude!

Im not happy that festool have brought out a new chuck and not offered current owners the chuck or atleast at some discount because they knew their old one was rubbish it will cost me money now.  From now on im not buying any new festool tools for at least 1 year as it only cost you more money and I would recommend everybody to do the same. Just like the Carvex I got it the day it came out in the UK wish I didnt.  Its not worth having new things straight away!

JMB

i aint being no guinea pig

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Well, hopefully nobody can take offense to my post.  At least none intended.  I've owned my C12 for almost 3 years and I really don't remember whether I had the bit issue others talk about.  When I first started using cordless drills, I too used the motor to both tighten and loosen the chuck.  I don't remember who it was, but someone told me not to do it that way.  Spend the extra time to manually tighten and loosen the chuck.  Nowadays I get it close and hand tighten it.  Just the way I do things, not something I'm telling anyone else to do.

Keyless chucks come as single sleeve, meant for drills that have an internal shaft lock and double sleeve that requires two hands to tighten and loosen the chuck.

Milwaukee is a little different than others in that they make their own chucks (or have it made specifically for them) and they cost a lot of money just for the chuck itself compared to others .  Most of their chucks, at least on the better drills are either single or double sleeve, ratcheting with carbide jaws.  When a bit is inserted properly, they close and don't let go unless you purposely loosen them.

There are times when I rush and get a little sloppy with hex bit insertions like Rick C. stated and have to open and reseat the bit.  If you go fast, you just have to accept that you can make mistakes sometimes, get away with it others and yes chucks or other parts might be poorly engineered causing issues.

 

[EcoFurniture]

Put my name on the list... I need a second try most times also. My old ( cheap) Makita drills didn't have that problem.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Put me on the list, too.  I have had a couple fall out or get stuck in the workpiece.  Not a big deal.  My Bosch does the same thing only much worse.  Doesn't happen if I am real careful when I put the bit in, but I would much rather use Centrotec than slow down enough to precisely position the bit and hold it there while I tighten the chuck.  But if this is the biggest problem I have during a day, I'm happy! [wink]

 

[JJ Wavra]

I have the same problem of the bit falling out even tightening by hand.  I would like a ratcheting chuck  I thought abotu returning the drill it happened so often in the beginning.  I now hold the chuck in one hand and tighten to a ridiculous manner and that has helped.  If the precision, size and power were not there it would have gone back.
JJ

 

[Wood_Junkie]

You might find this a bit of a rubbish theory, but I suggest you try it as outlined below.  Unless I really manually crank down on the chuck I can spin it loose about 75% of the time. 

So, I think the issue might be the effectiveness of the drill's brake (I have a C12).  While the bit is spinning it gets some inertia going, and when it the motor brakes suddenly, the outer ring of the chuck still spins a tiny bit.  Each time this happens it loosens the chuck by another hair, and eventually the bit-holding is compromised.

Here is the test:
- Tighten the chuck *without a bit in it*, just snug like you normally would.  You can spin it shut with your hand loosely holding the outer sleeve of the chuck.
- Now, run the drill a few dozen times, starting and stopping the drill in 2-3 second intervals.  Enough to get is spun up to full speed, and then completely let go of the trigger.
- After whatever cycles you deem "enough", test the chuck's tightness.

Note that this also happens on my Ryobi drills that have a motor brake that is very effective and that have a metal bodied chuck.  On one drill the chuck sleeve keeps spinning if there's no bit in it!  I am not implying that Festool's quality is anywhere remotely on par with Ryobi's, but rather that the physics are unavoidable.

 

[TJ Cornish]

For what it's worth, I bought my T15+3 here in the US at the end of August this year and I have the ratcheting chuck.  Seems like they have switched over in this part of the world too.

 

[fdengel]

Personally, I never felt like using the drill's trigger to tighten/loosen bits in the chuck was particularly safe.  I must be one of the few people who actually follows the instructions and takes the battery off the drill when changing bits?

I guess I never even realized this whole "issue" was a concern because I've always tightened the chucks by hand -- even on my other brands of drills...

 

[greg mann]

There are two separate issues here, IMO. The first is properly aligning and tightening the drill initially. In the case of flatted shanks Rick is right. If you miss the center of the flats you are likely to have the drill come loose. In the case of round shanked drills I believe it is necessary, make that to read as more useful, to run the chuck down close to the proper fit and then finish off by hand. The Festool chucks have a secondary tightening phase that needs to happen if you are going to have the drill held properly. I find that I cannot control this feature through the use of the motor. It may happen or it may not, and usually does not. I admit to using the motor to change from one size to another quickly but if the drill does not align when I do this I never blame the drill or the chuck, the stars just did not align for me on that occasion and I adjust. I have had drills come loose when I did not follow what I consider proper procedure and I blame no one but myself. I don't think proper procedure is all that hard.

Secondly, the issue of the drill coming loose from rapid stopping of the chuck is not exclusive to any one chuck brand or application. We use Albrecht keyless chucks on our Bridgeport milling machines all the time. For those of you unfamiliar with these chuck take my word that the quality and holding power are way beyond anything you will get on any cordless drill. However, even with them, if they are spinning at, say 800 rpm, and you turn the spindle off and apply the manual spindle brake too aggressively the chuck will open up and the drill will fall out. Very often, even if the drill does not fall out it will slip on a subsequent hole and you will find the drill has loosened slightly from a previous stoppage.

I think these types of problem and the inherent limitations to always getting the alignment done properly when spinning a keyless chuck with the motor, followed by a lack of proper cinching afterwards by hand, may have prompted the development of the Centrotec system. If given the option I will always use the Centrotec drills as they have designed out any possibility of slippage.

One last thought, and I know some of you will argue that this is not the issue, but keyless chucks do wear out over time. We have Milwaukee cordless drill where I work and they are used for maintenance chores, usuall in metal. I personally think the chucks are a little sub-par, but I also realize they are being subjected to severe use so I temper my judgement based on that fact. Even our Albrechts have a finite life.

 

[jonny round boy]

I must be one of the few people who actually follows the instructions and takes the battery off the drill when changing bits?

You seriously do this? [eek]

Wow, you must have a lot of time to kill...

[tongue]

 

[jmbfestool]

There are two separate issues here, IMO. The first is properly aligning and tightening the drill initially. In the case of flatted shanks Rick is right. If you miss the center of the flats you are likely to have the drill come loose. In the case of round shanked drills I believe it is necessary, make that to read as more useful, to run the chuck down close to the proper fit and then finish off by hand. The Festool chucks have a secondary tightening phase that needs to happen if you are going to have the drill held properly. I find that I cannot control this feature through the use of the motor. It may happen or it may not, and usually does not. I admit to using the motor to change from one size to another quickly but if the drill does not align when I do this I never blame the drill or the chuck, the stars just did not align for me on that occasion and I adjust. I have had drills come loose when I did not follow what I consider proper procedure and I blame no one but myself. I don't think proper procedure is all that hard.

Secondly, the issue of the drill coming loose from rapid stopping of the chuck is not exclusive to any one chuck brand or application. We use Albrecht keyless chucks on our Bridgeport milling machines all the time. For those of you unfamiliar with these chuck take my word that the quality and holding power are way beyond anything you will get on any cordless drill. However, even with them, if they are spinning at, say 800 rpm, and you turn the spindle off and apply the manual spindle brake too aggressively the chuck will open up and the drill will fall out. Very often, even if the drill does not fall out it will slip on a subsequent hole and you will find the drill has loosened slightly from a previous stoppage.

I think these types of problem and the inherent limitations to always getting the alignment done properly when spinning a keyless chuck with the motor, followed by a lack of proper cinching afterwards by hand, may have prompted the development of the Centrotec system. If given the option I will always use the Centrotec drills as they have designed out any possibility of slippage.

One last thought, and I know some of you will argue that this is not the issue, but keyless chucks do wear out over time. We have Milwaukee cordless drill where I work and they are used for maintenance chores, usuall in metal. I personally think the chucks are a little sub-par, but I also realize they are being subjected to severe use so I temper my judgement based on that fact. Even our Albrechts have a finite life.

I give up!  

People just dont get it!   I have never NEVER I MEAN NEVER had a drill bit fall out of my Bosch and Milwaukee drills by using the drill to tighten instead  but using your drill OR USING YOUR HAND to tighten  the Festool chuck it will still drop the bit no mater how slow you do it and how prefect you get the bit in position why is that so hard to understand.  ITS THE CHUCK NOTHING ELS BUT THE CHUCK!   [crying]

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Relax JMB.  Take a deep breath and forget all about the posts.  I've contacted the international representative about this issue, Chuck D. Bitt, and he will be investigating the problem, reporting back to Festool and immediately making changes.  You might be called into their secret headquarters to assist in testing the newer version.  In the event they don't return you, would you please list the Foggers you would like to pass along your collection of tools to.  Thank you.

Ken

 

[jmbfestool]

Relax JMB.  Take a deep breath and forget all about the posts.  I've contacted the international representative about this issue, Chuck D. Bitt, and he will be investigating the problem, reporting back to Festool and immediately making changes.  You might be called into their secret headquarters to assist in testing the newer version.  In the event they don't return you, would you please list the Foggers you would like to pass along your collection of tools to.  Thank you.

Ken

sorry!  Its because I saw the Name Rick in his post I think! Agreeing with the Hex bits its an obvious observation every body knows a hex bit would fall out if not aligned properly just seems silly to keep bringing the Hex thing up. Its the reason why I used a ROUND (not hex) in the video  [tongue]

Any way NO! I am taking my tools with me! Like my babies! Cant leave them on their own! Ill take my festool chuck and swap it with the new ratchet chuck and ill be a happy bunny.

JMB