Dry wall screws are for dry wall only.

[ChuckM]

Is that a coarse threaded screw with a bugle head?

It's hard to tell, but it sure looks like Norm is using drywall screws.

Believe it or not, yesterday around this time, I was watching exactly those two episodes on jigs while I was on the treadmill exercising!

The screws did look to be dry wall screws, the kind I often use for building jigs or shop fixtures.

 

[peter halle]

Drywall screws were using a lot in the 80's on interior cabinet installs when I first started in construction.  Many a wall cabinet still holding on a wall.  (In fact, the cabinets in my house - built in 1993 has wall cabinets installed with hand driven finishing nails and they are still standing.). In other words, we hopefully learn and evolve over time and develop new practices and standards to cure past issues or even to just to do things better in the construction industry.  Unfortunately that great thing of yesterday might pose a problem further down the road, but that is just how life works I guess.

Peter

 

[Packard]

Drywall screws are heated to a harder temper that most other screws.  The threads on drywall screws are deeper than wood screws, leaving the core diameter that is much thinner than most screws.

These things conspire to create screws that are significantly more brittle than most wood screws.

The bugle head on drywall screws was not designed to fit countersink holes, and trying to get them seated in countersinks make the snapping off of heads on a drywall screw even more common.

I will do a Google search to find some corroboration.

Also, bugle heads were designed to not rip the paper surface on drywall and it does not have cutting ribs that allow construction screws to self-countersink.  Trying to self-countersink drywall screws, especially into hardwood, causes even more failures.

Drywall screws are the preferred screw for drywall, but there are always better screw choices for all other applications.

 

[Packard]

Snip.
And this does not apply solely to drywall screws. Snip.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Such as brass screws getting stripped or even broken while being driven into very hard wood. The answer is not that one type of screw should or can only be used for one particular type of material, but that the user needs to know when to use and when not to use a certain kind of screw. In Packard's case, the use of drywall screws proved to be a curse.

For brass screws, I get the identical size screw in steel and drive it home and then remove it.  I then replace it with the brass screw.  I a hand screwdriver to drive in the brass screws.  If done correctly the brass screw will drive in easily as the steel screw served to pre-cut the threads.  The last quarter turn meets the same resistance as the steel screw.

If the brass screw is driven in the pre-cut threads, no strength is lost.

 

[Packard]

This Popular Woodworking article pretty much says the same thing I’ve been saying:

Drywall screws are heated to a harder temper that most other screws.  The threads on drywall screws are deeper than wood screws, leaving the core diameter that is much thinner than most screws.

These things conspire to create screws that are significantly more brittle than most wood screws.

The bugle head on drywall screws was not designed to fit countersink holes, and trying to get them seated in countersinks make the snapping off of heads on a drywall screw even more common.

I will do a Google search to find some corroboration.

Also, bugle heads were designed to not rip the paper surface on drywall and it does not have cutting ribs that allow construction screws to self-countersink.  Trying to self-countersink drywall screws, especially into hardwood, causes even more failures.

Drywall screws are the preferred screw for drywall, but there are always better screw choices for all other applications.

Besides being heat-treated at a higher temperature and being brittle, drywall screws have a smooth “bugle head” – a curved transition between the shank and head. This design is to keep the screw head from breaking the paper of drywall wallboard (the only true use for drywall screws.) In addition, the countersink of the drywall screw does not match the recess made when using a typical countersink bit.
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/screws-screws-arent/

I also found that wood screws are usually made from low carbon grades of steel, typically C1018 - C1022.

Drywall screws were typically made from C1010 - C1012.

That surprised me actually.  I’ve been often told that anything below C1020 was not heat treatable. 

The number is read as “See-ten-eighteen” or “See-ten-twenty”.  The final number represents the percentage of carbon in the steel.

By contrast, steel files are typically made from C1095, and carbon steel knives are typically made from C1060 to C1095.

The higher the carbon content the harder the steel can be made.  Also blades made to the same hardness will be “tougher” if made from higher carbon content steel.  “Tougher” meaning less likely to break.

Also note that heat treated steels that have been zinc plated can suffer “hydrogen embrittlement” if they are not baked for an hour at 350 degrees F. Immediately after plating.  If you have ever had a head pop off of a sheet metal screw, it is usually because of hydrogen embrittlement.  The manufacturer cheaped-out on the baking (stress relieving).

 

[jadams]

I won't dispute the design or manufacture of them, but personally I'll trust my own experience. After Hundreds of projects and thousands of dry wall screws, I've never had one fail.

 

[Packard]

My opinion on using drywall screws off-label, is you are playing Russian roulette.  Once every 6 shots, you die. (Though my revolver carries 7 rounds.)

Amazingly, after shooting many many drywall screws I am still alive.

The Russian Roulette allusion was a metaphor.  I don’t expect anyone to actually die because they sued drywall screws.  But their projects may.

 

[Vtshopdog]

I generally use yellow zinc construction screws to hang drywall......

[big grin]

 

[ChuckM]

For brass screws, I get the identical size screw in steel and drive it home and then remove it.  I then replace it with the brass screw.  I a hand screwdriver to drive in the brass screws.  If done correctly the brass screw will drive in easily as the steel screw served to pre-cut the threads.  The last quarter turn meets the same resistance as the steel screw.

If the brass screw is driven in the pre-cut threads, no strength is lost.

Not only do I predrill and thread the hole with a steel screw, I also wax the brass screw to ensure zero failure before it is driven.

 

[ChuckM]

I won't dispute the design or manufacture of them, but personally I'll trust my own experience. Snip.

Experience as well as analysis. I find it unbelievable that so many adult woodworkers or diyers would follow their social media "stars" on YouTube, Instagram, etc., and blindly trust their words. Where has their independent thinking gone?

 

[Cheese]

I generally use yellow zinc construction screws to hang drywall......

[big grin]

LOL...now that's funny.  [big grin]

 

[Packard]

I generally use yellow zinc construction screws to hang drywall......

[big grin]

LOL...now that's funny.  [big grin]

Construction screws are probably over-specified for drywall.  And the heads of some construction screws have ridges to chew through and make their own countersink.  That would tear up the paper covering on drywall.

As a rule, task-specific products do a better job at, and are best used for the task they were designed for.

 

[flair woodworks]

Where have you come across wood screws that are not rolled?

I may be wrong, but I think it would be difficult for manufacturers to roll threads up to a shank of the same large diameter, as seen in these brass screws.
[attachimg=1]

 

[jeh]

There is a reason drywall screws (and many others) are not permitted for structural application. And the actual issue is really not with using them for jigs or screwing MDF to studs.

The issue is that when they are screwed into materials they are absolutely not suited for, there is a chance they will break - and there is another chance for that once and if they need to be removed. Both is a mess and time intensive if you're the one stuck dealing with it.

And this does not apply solely to drywall screws. There is a reason any serious/quality manufacturer of screws offers instructions on when to pre-drill, how large in diameter to pre-drill and so on. And they most likely have certificates that prove the type of screw is suitable for certain applications when set according to the instructions.

You can break almost any screw.

The way I read [member=74278]Packard[/member] 's post, it was meant to be a simple reminder that there are better options, after he spent a lot of time dealing with a problem that could have been prevented/ didn't need to be one.

Kind regards,
Oliver

For other than drywall and for making temporary jigs (usually with drywall screws) I pre-drill everything. An extra step, but well worth it as there is rarely an issue with biggest being wood splits or head breakage, both of which are not easy to fix.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Usually drill pilot holes too but when that isn’t practical I use self drilling square drive screws.

In addition to avoiding splitting and head snapping pilot holes help prevent the screw from holding the pieces of wood apart. So when no pilot hole I let the self drilling screw make it’s way then back it out and then go full speed in reverse to ream out the top hole. Then the screw can pull the top piece down tight without my having to resort to the excessive torque which tends to result in splitting and head popping.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I generally use yellow zinc construction screws to hang drywall......

[big grin]

Why? When there are perfectly good Tap-Cons....  [big grin]

I am generally against drywall screws for the Phillips head reason, they suck.
I have had a few break upon "attempted" extraction, but they are also likely to strip the head out.
Occasionally, I will get a repair job at the shop, usually loaded with drywall screws  [mad]
They go straight in the bin.

In Norm's defense, same as Michael said above, there weren't many alternatives.
I too have been rewatching some of the old episodes, since there is now an official channel on Youtube, instead of pirated home video copies.
I am much more familiar in my memories of the later episodes. It odd to watch the early ones where the shop seems almost barren? In the first several episodes of season 1, there is no out-feed support or side support between the rails. That saw looks so lonely out in the middle of that space. The back hutch is not there either. I remember him building that in one show.
It was never "fine furniture", but I really didn't remember how crude some of it was, at least in the beginning? There again, it was decades ago.

 

[ChuckM]

With a few exceptions such as the roll-top desk, most pieces Norm did in NYW don't fall into the fine furniture category, but that doesn't affect the educational value. In terms of breadth, from boats to outdoor projects to jigs to utilitarian builds, few YouTubers come close to his.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

With a few exceptions such as the roll-top desk, most pieces Norm did in NYW don't fall into the fine furniture category, but that doesn't affect the educational value. In terms of breadth, from boats to outdoor projects to jigs to utilitarian builds, few YouTubers come close to his.

Agreed, I think I might have had a bit of a romanticized memory. I looked at a lot of it with the inspired, almost awe of a novice. Now, looking back with a clearly different perspective, it looks much different.
I see the crudity that a lot of innovation as overcome.
To be fair, he wouldn't do a lot of that the same way today either.
He is the reason I have so many routers though..... [huh]

 

[Packard]

I met Norm Abrams when the company I represented had a display at the National Hardware Show at McCormick Place in Chicago.  That would have been around 1980 to maybe 1984.

He was the celebrity guest at one of the nearby booths.  He had a lap top desk he made on display.  I mentioned that I often would get blotching when staining pine.

He said that to avoid that issue, he always used oil based Polyshades on pine and cherry. 

I’ve done the same ever since.  Most recently applying it as a wipe on finish.  It resolves the blotching issue entirely.

I would call Abrams a “practical woodworker”.  He embraced what worked, eschews what did not. 

As a result, I try not to become too enraptured with technique over results. 

I like dowel joinery, but I use biscuits, screws, confirmats and even nails, as is expedient and does not sacrifice build integrity.

“If it works, use it.” Is my approach.

 

[Michael Kellough]

“Nail is steel dowel.”