Dust collection for Kapex?

[rdesigns]

I would like to place my new Kapex in the cluster of my small shop's stationary power tools that are connected to a Jet 1-1/2 HP dust collection system. (I have a CT 26, but it would be awkward to use it for the Kapex in the shop setting.)

Does anyone have experience/recommendations as to how to do this? For example, would it work to run a 4" hose nearly all the way to the Kapex dust port and reduce to a smaller line for the the connection? Will the reduced static lift of the Jet DC (compared to the CT 26) be adequate?

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks.

 

[semenza]

I am thinking that you will get better results with the 4" connected to a more traditional box behind the saw type of set up rather than reducing the line size at the saw.

Could you run a permanent 36mm or 50mm hose to a location convenient to connect to the CT or other vac? In other words leave the hose in place and hook it to the CT when needed.

Seth

 

[nickao]

I use a central dust vac to the Miter station. Works just as well as connecting my CT 36. Still, using a box or something similar behind the saw as well as the direct connection to the saw gets 99% of the dust as opposed to maybe 80% of the dust collecting right at the saw. Plus, I have a dust scrubber right above the miter station to get the airborne particles the miter still gives even with the double collection method.

The only miter type saw I ever used that collected every bit of dust was in a shop I visited, but it was a radial arm saw and the blade was just about 99% enveloped by a shroud as opposed to trying to just get the dust off a portion of the blade. It also had through the table collection as well(like a table with lot of little holes). I can"t remember the saw brand but it was not common and was a commercial setting. I think the collection system may have been custom for the saw.

 

[ccarrolladams]

I would like to place my new Kapex in the cluster of my small shop's stationary power tools that are connected to a Jet 1-1/2 HP dust collection system. (I have a CT 26, but it would be awkward to use it for the Kapex in the shop setting.)

Does anyone have experience/recommendations as to how to do this? For example, would it work to run a 4" hose nearly all the way to the Kapex dust port and reduce to a smaller line for the the connection? Will the reduced static lift of the Jet DC (compared to the CT 26) be adequate?

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks.

The 3 Kapex which we move about in my shop on rolling stands have dedicated CT22 connected with short 36mm AS hose.

Both of our permanently mounted Kapex are now connected to the primary plant dust collection system. Behind each of those Kapex is a typical miter saw shroud using 100mm hose. Each also has a separate 100mm hose coming down from the over-head main dust collection duct. An adapter couples a very short 36mm hose to each Kapex. The result is we get hardly any dust escaping being collected.

Each of those permanently mounted Kapex have a Tiger Stop computer-controlled stop which we find very accurate (to 0.1mm) and efficient.

 

[rdesigns]

I am thinking that you will get better results with the 4" connected to a more traditional box behind the saw type of set up rather than reducing the line size at the saw.

Could you run a permanent 36mm or 50mm hose to a location convenient to connect to the CT or other vac? In other words leave the hose in place and hook it to the CT when needed.

Maybe I could use something similar to the setup I now have with my Hitachi (which will be replaced by the Kapex):  I have a 4" hose that runs to a shroud behind the saw, and there's a wye with a 2" branch just before the shroud; this 2" branch has a short section of hose that connects to the (mostly) inefficient dust port on the top side of the blade housing.

 

[semenza]

I am thinking that you will get better results with the 4" connected to a more traditional box behind the saw type of set up rather than reducing the line size at the saw.

Could you run a permanent 36mm or 50mm hose to a location convenient to connect to the CT or other vac? In other words leave the hose in place and hook it to the CT when needed.

Maybe I could use something similar to the setup I now have with my Hitachi (which will be replaced by the Kapex):  I have a 4" hose that runs to a shroud behind the saw, and there's a wye with a 2" branch just before the shroud; this 2" branch has a short section of hose that connects to the (mostly) inefficient dust port on the top side of the blade housing.

I have that set up on my radial arm saw. It works pretty well. But I really have no idea how much goes through the small port. I hooked it up that way , it seemed pretty good , and I never tried to do any testing.

Seth

 

[Alan m]

seth you should conect up your ct the next time you empty the bag

 

[ccmviking]

The 3 Kapex which we move about in my shop on rolling stands have dedicated CT22 connected with short 36mm AS hose.

Both of our permanently mounted Kapex are now connected to the primary plant dust collection system. Behind each of those Kapex is a typical miter saw shroud using 100mm hose. Each also has a separate 100mm hose coming down from the over-head main dust collection duct. An adapter couples a very short 36mm hose to each Kapex. The result is we get hardly any dust escaping being collected.

Each of those permanently mounted Kapex have a Tiger Stop computer-controlled stop which we find very accurate (to 0.1mm) and efficient.

Carroll,

    Would you mind posting some pictures of both the cart and fixed setup.  I've looked into the TigerStop units but haven't purchased yet.  I think I'll put one on my slider before the Kapex, but both would of course be nice.  Anyway I'd really like to see how yours is setup.  Thanks!

Chris...

 

[semenza]

seth you should conect up your ct the next time you empty the bag

You mean conect  the CT to the small port on the radial arm saw?  I could do a bit of testing when I get a chance.

Seth

 

[nickao]

Tigerstop is a bit overkill for most here, wouldn't the smaller Sawgear(made by Tigerstop) make more sense, 2500.00+ instead of 5500.00+.

If we do get another recession I think the Tigerstop company may get hurt bad and even go out of business as this last recession caused hem to lay off half the company.

http://www.sawgear.com/

http://stores.sawgearstore.com/-strse-SawGear-Systems/Categories.bok

 

[ccarrolladams]

Maybe I could use something similar to the setup I now have with my Hitachi (which will be replaced by the Kapex):  I have a 4" hose that runs to a shroud behind the saw, and there's a wye with a 2" branch just before the shroud; this 2" branch has a short section of hose that connects to the (mostly) inefficient dust port on the top side of the blade housing.

It is entirely possible that your proposed dust collection system will work just fine with your Kapex.

However, you might well want to consider that Festool designed the Kapex to work best with the high velocity, adjustable low volume extraction of the CTs. My experience has been that even with the Kapex the high velocity extraction air movement is important to the cooling of the machines motors. For that reason when I first opened my shop in 2010 the permanent Kapex also had dedicated CT22 connected to their DC ports. Over several months we experimented with ways to ensure enough velocity from the plant DC system. I must share that our plant DC blowers and bags are external to our building and protected by sprinklers. That system has 4 10hp blowers because the ducts are large and the distances vast. Besides the Kapex we are running a pressure beam saw and 2 CNC nested routers nearly constantly. Compared to those the Kapex make little dust.

What we found from the experiments are that the behind the saw shroud and the Kapex DC port need separate 100mm (4") hoses and remote dampers. The 36mm hose for the dust port is short (1.8m) which is enough for needed flexibility. Since it comes down from above there is no excessive bend. The 100mm hose terminates in a fitting into which a standard Festool vac end mates well, so there is no restriction on the extraction end. I am not sure the velocity equals that of a CT. But my experience has been that because normally I open the damper before a Kapex session and do not close it until I am sure all the dust has been collected, the temperature of those Kapex making continuous cuts for several minutes at a time is no higher than the ones using a dedicated CT22 making far fewer cuts at a session.

As I have shared previously our plant DC system also has spark detection and extinguishment equipment. That sounds an alarm should a spark be detected, sprays some water to extinguish that spark, so there is no mess. The goal is that the external sprinklers will never be needed.

 

[ccarrolladams]

Tigerstop is a bit overkill for most here, wouldn't the smaller Sawgear(made by Tigerstop) make more sense, 2500.00+ instead of 5500.00+.

As far as I know only a tiny fraction of Kapex use any sort of servo controlled flag stops, be those Tiger Stop products of those made by competitors. Perhaps the SawGear stops are more popular in the framing trade, although they can be very effective in finish carpentry.

Is it possible you and I had this kind of discussion at AWFS 2009? Or are you exchanging messages with my CPA?

Have you experience using both the various models of Tiger Stop and the lighter and more portable SawGear?

Let me try to explain the differences to my fellow FOG members: The various Tiger Stop models are very popular in the metal fabrication industry and have been sold for many years. To better serve the carpentry trades fairly recently Tiger Stop designed the SawGear system. By that time my own metal fabrication business was using 12 Tiger Stops, each appropriate to the machine to which it was dedicated.

Before I even considered building my wood/cabinet shop the craftsman who now is my primary Kapex user had become an expert using Tiger Stops while working for my metal fabrication business.

All those servo stops have purposes. Often setting the stop by using the key pad is effective. That is how it is done with the SawGear, which can remember a few cut lists. Most of the Tiger Stop models can be programmed from the key pad, but they also can receive cut lists from "computer central" like the most effective CNC machines.

Another difference between most Tiger Stops and the SawGear is that the servo only positions the SawGear stop. Most Tiger Stop systems can push of pull raw materials, so the craftsperson does not need to let go of the saw to move stock. Thus with a Tiger Stop we can concentrate of moving the saw through the work without hands coming new the cut. Once a cut is finished the motion of the stock being pushed into place removes the first finished piece. With a Kapex we therefore do not need to stop the blade between cuts for safety reasons. Of course if either the part of off-cut is so small as to fly around, then we use the Kapex more conventionally. With large enough parts we are thrilled by the quality of cut and productivity thanks to the Tiger Stops.

Actually I have never needed to discuss my equipment selection philosophy with my accounts. I embrace the theory of total cost of operation, in which the purchase price of a machine is only one consideration. We know the data delivered by the computer central produces the desired parts, usually because we have built a prototype. There are no local keypad errors. Most days the value of the wood being worked by a Kapex and Tiger Stop exceeds the cost of the system. The savings in scrap and lost time is worth it.

As I say, each of us has to run our life as we see fit. Experiences and mileage will vary.

 

[ccarrolladams]

Let me add one other important consideration. Between my Burbank wood working shop and my Van Nuys metal fabrication plant we own 21 Tiger Stops. Therefore we only need one inventory of spare parts. Our own maintenance people have been trained by Tiger Stop factory experts, so we will never be out of action very long should something go wrong.

It is the same as owning more than one Kapex or TS55. While one of us is adjusting a machine the rest of us are making money using the other saws!

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

If we do get another recession I think the Tigerstop company may get hurt bad and even go out of business as this last recession caused them to lay off half the company.

Due to concern of a forum member about this post, I would like to clarify that this comment is solely the opinion of the poster and not necessarily based on fact or referencing supporting data about the layoffs.

The reality is that any company could be crippled by a recession, large and small. I would ask that we keep such speculation to ourselves. Thanks.

 

[rdesigns]

Maybe I could use something similar to the setup I now have with my Hitachi (which will be replaced by the Kapex):  I have a 4" hose that runs to a shroud behind the saw, and there's a wye with a 2" branch just before the shroud; this 2" branch has a short section of hose that connects to the (mostly) inefficient dust port on the top side of the blade housing.

It is entirely possible that your proposed dust collection system will work just fine with your Kapex.

That's what I'm thinking, too. Anyway, I'll try it that way because it won't involve much expense or effort at this stage, and I'll get back with the results.

My doubts about it are due to the great difference in air velocity between the CT and my Jet dust collector--the CT claims a static lift of about 96", and I bet the Jet system pulls maybe 12" or less

 

[nickao]

The owner of the company in an interview said they made the layoffs and  had a very hard time of it. What you think I make this up? Google and read the interview for yourself.

As far as the next recession creating them trouble that is nothing more than an educated guess, but the layoffs and having a hard time staying in business in the last recession is FACT and is right from the owners mouth. If they do not want it stated they should not have done an interview that is posted on the net dated April 2011.

Hey most guys here cut wood and I only said the sawgear may make more sense for most here, not a company with employees.

Heck many companies sales are going down and right now with no houses being built I am screwed. I find no problem with anyone saying it either. My statement does nothing to hurt that company in anyway nor did I intend it to, just making an observation. I should have said (again from the owners interview) that the sawgear was in part developed to get into a different price point and create more business in this hard economy and it is geared toward the smaller shop for that very reason. If these remarks made by the owner are wrong the person of concern can clarify it.

I have not said anything negative about the company at all. I actually like the product!

From the owners current view point they are in good shape right now and I wish them luck. Here is one statement out of about 15 articles that all say the same thing they made it though the recession barely(with help from a Employment Security Department’s Shared-Work program) , but now are hopefully on track to get back to business as usal.

His statement:

Positioned for growth

Dick said TigerStop is in a good position now, maintaining solid relationships with its customers, selling new products and gaining new footholds overseas.

What would help, he said, is if policymakers worked harder to correct the trade imbalances the U.S. carries with other countries. “I don’t feel the U.S. will generate significant jobs until we get some of these structural problems taken care of,” Dick said. (Boy I agree with his statement here!)

In any case, TigerStop believes it’s ready to pounce when the slow economic recovery shifts into higher gear.

“We’re essentially debt-free with the exception of a small real estate loan,” Dick said. “Banks are very anxious to loan to us.” TigerStop is prepared to thrive, Dick said, and “that’s a tremendous thing to be able to say … especially after the crash.”

I wish the company well and really can't believe a two sentence statement would even warrant a comment from the moderator here. I was just posing my opinion on future economic growth of a company, I had no idea that was against any rule. Here is another company that is Tigerstops competition at the higher price points, like Tigerstop's products it is neat stuff as well:

http://www.razorgage.com/RazorGage_Story.html

 

[greg mann]

The owner of the company in an interview said they made the layoffs and  had a very hard time of it. What you think I make this up? Google and read the interview for yourself.

As far as the next recession creating them trouble that is nothing more than an educated guess, but the layoffs and having a hard time staying in business in the last recession is FACT and is right from the owners mouth. If they do not want it stated they should not have done an interview that is posted on the net dated April 2011.

Hey most guys here cut wood and I only said the sawgear may make more sense for most here, not a company with employees.

Heck many companies sales are going down and right now with no houses being built I am screwed. I find no problem with anyone saying it either. My statement does nothing to hurt that company in anyway nor did I intend it to, just making an observation. I should have said (again from the owners interview) that the sawgear was in part developed to get into a different price point and create more business in this hard economy and it is geared toward the smaller shop for that very reason. If these remarks made by the owner are wrong the person of concern can clarify it.

I have not said anything negative about the company at all. I actually like the product!

From the owners current view point they are in good shape right now and I wish them luck. Here is one statement out of about 15 articles that all say the same thing they made it though the recession barely(with help from a Employment Security Department’s Shared-Work program) , but now are hopefully on track to get back to business as usal.

His statement:

Positioned for growth

Dick said TigerStop is in a good position now, maintaining solid relationships with its customers, selling new products and gaining new footholds overseas.

What would help, he said, is if policymakers worked harder to correct the trade imbalances the U.S. carries with other countries. “I don’t feel the U.S. will generate significant jobs until we get some of these structural problems taken care of,” Dick said. (Boy I agree with his statement here!)

In any case, TigerStop believes it’s ready to pounce when the slow economic recovery shifts into higher gear.

“We’re essentially debt-free with the exception of a small real estate loan,” Dick said. “Banks are very anxious to loan to us.” TigerStop is prepared to thrive, Dick said, and “that’s a tremendous thing to be able to say … especially after the crash.”

I wish the company well and really can't believe a two sentence statement would even warrant a comment from the moderator here. I was just posing my opinion on future economic growth of a company, I had no idea that was against any rule. Here is another company that is Tigerstops competition at the higher price points, like Tigerstop's products it is neat stuff as well:

http://www.razorgage.com/RazorGage_Story.html

With all due respect, this last post tells a different story than that implied by your original post. I think Shane's concern is that you might not be clear enough in a two sentence post. Consider this: Your original post might actually scare someone away from buying a TigerStop system for fear the company might go under. Your second post would be more likely to ENCOURAGE a purchase.

 

[nickao]

My post was just one guys opinion of what can or might happen in the future, who the heck listens to me anyway? And if I knew for a fact a company was going down I would certainly warn my forum friends here about it.

I did not know it was my job to protect a company's reputation and help them sell. I stated the facts of what happened as stated from the actual owner and then offered my opinion. Just like I offer the opinion that I hate the Kapex,it certainly did not deter Festool from selling a bunch. I can only conclude if my sole statement on this forum scared a big company like that, that in some years had income of over 40 million a year,  maybe there is an issue. I stand by my statement and opinion and still think it is really not in this forums bests interest to tell me what I can have opinions about. I am not allowed to theorize about a companies future because it may hurt them? why the heck not! If I think a company may have financial problems in the future I think it is my duty to report it to my Festool friends!!

My second post was just trying to bring balance to my first statement.

Some could say hey if this is true about having a hard time  the prices may be lower and it is time to buy.

This is getting off track so I will bring it back.

The Festool Kapex can probably benefit from a 2 or 3 way dust collection system. At the tool port, behind the tool and under the table. This 3 way system will get about 90% to 95% of the dust. Top that off with an air scrubber right about the miter station and I think one would have a near dustless miter station. I think in the real world a central dust collector or a CT would both give comparable results, no matter the specs of static lift.

 

[semenza]

Opinions are fine guys. But lets keep this on track and not diverge into a full blown debate / thread about the good, the bad, and the ugly  of the recession and economics.

The OP wants help with dust collection.

Seth

 

[rdesigns]

Maybe I could use something similar to the setup I now have with my Hitachi (which will be replaced by the Kapex):  I have a 4" hose that runs to a shroud behind the saw, and there's a wye with a 2" branch just before the shroud; this 2" branch has a short section of hose that connects to the (mostly) inefficient dust port on the top side of the blade housing.

It is entirely possible that your proposed dust collection system will work just fine with your Kapex.

That's what I'm thinking, too. Anyway, I'll try it that way because it won't involve much expense or effort at this stage, and I'll get back with the results.

My doubts about it are due to the great difference in air velocity between the CT and my Jet dust collector--the CT claims a static lift of about 96", and I bet the Jet system pulls maybe 12" or less

Well, I tried both, and the result is that the CT26 with a D36 hose wins without a doubt.

The setup I tried with the Jet 1-1/2 HP dust collector was as described above; the 2" (50mm) hose attached to the dust port of the Kapex was not nearly as powerful as the CT26, so there was a lot of uncollected dust flying out, of which, the 4" x 12" shroud mounted right behind the saw captured very little.

The CT does not capture ALL the dust, but it gets most--about 90%--the Jet setup caught less than half, I'd guess.

So, I rearranged things in my cluster of stationery tools (removed the drill press and used that space for the CT with its stack of Systainers) so that the CT's hose can connect to the Kapex without being underfoot. Simple. Easy.