Dust extraction L Class vs. M Class?

[ifit]

I need a new 'M class' sticker for my midi for use on site, where can i get one?

 

[sploo]

I need a new 'M class' sticker for my midi for use on site, where can i get one?

Festool, I'd presume? (as long as it is an M rated unit)

 

[tooluser41]

I found some useful info here which helped me decidehttps://mobiledustextractors.com/ There are also some reviews and other bits and pieces.  I went for the CTL 26 in the end and never looked back since!

 

[Midnight Man]

This is an interesting discussion, I'd like to throw a spanner out there in case someone can provide me with some guidance or a definitive answer.

I purchased some time ago a TS55 and CT36 - they came as a package deal here in Australia.  The TS55 included the ABSA dust guard, and was "promoted" as an MDF set:http://www.festool.com.au/epages/to...ooltechnic/Products/561555/SubProducts/574882

This kit, when I registered it at Festool, showed the CT model as "CT 36 E AUS 240V HEPA" in the service certificate.

I have always made the assumption that because the kit was sold as an "MDF" set, it would have to be the best filtration combination one can obtain on a Festool extractor.

As folks here have said, health is important, and as I'm going to soon be using this in an enclosed workshop (though only occasionally with MDF, more commonly with melamine and other sheet goods), I'd rather swap coin in my pocket for peace of mind, knowing I'm doing everything I can to protect my health.

My doubt on this stems from the fact that the extractor is listed as a CT 36 E... which doesn't seem to conform to an L or M standard of any sort

Are my assumptions that this is the best filtration possible correct?  Are we talking that it meets the HEPA standard noted earlier ("99.997% of all particulates down to 0.3 microns")?

Many thanks for anyone who may advise, and apologies to moderators if this should not be posted in this thread!

 

[Steven Owen]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

You're welcome.

One thing however, and it's a bit of an odd one. But your suggestion of using the HEPA filters I believe is flawed, because after some research it appears to be class M/H approved the machine must be equipped with an automatic filter cleaning function that momentarily pulses a burst of reverse airflow into the filter every 15 seconds or a vigorous shake with an electromagnet (depending on manufacturer). Now apparently the HEPA filters being so fine as to be classified as HEPA are actually damaged by this reverse airflow/shaking action, so installing them would soon mean they would be damaged and no better than standard class M filters within a few days.

Perhaps the wording wasn't clear, but the comment about the HEPA filter was a follow on from the "if you are a home woodworker, my advice would be to go for the CTL" and hence I was suggesting that you might choose to use a HEPA filter in the CTL for the best filtration.

The automatic filter cleaning you mention is what Festool refer to as AUTOCLEAN (AC) and for absolute clarity, I'm not referring to the AUTOCLEAN models when I suggest using HEPA filters; the HEPA filters are "not suitable for mobile dust extractors with AUTOCLEAN function" and are marked as such.

I wasn't aware that automatic filter cleaning is a requirement for M/H classification though, and I know devices without AUTOCLEAN are sold in those categories so I'm surprised. Do you have a reference I could take a look at?

I would think the HEPA filters are a little to fragile to use with AutoClean in many Vacs.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I purchased some time ago a TS55 and CT36 - they came as a package deal here in Australia.  The TS55 included the ABSA dust guard, and was "promoted" as an MDF set:http://www.festool.com.au/epages/to...ooltechnic/Products/561555/SubProducts/574882

This kit, when I registered it at Festool, showed the CT model as "CT 36 E AUS 240V HEPA" in the service certificate.

My doubt on this stems from the fact that the extractor is listed as a CT 36 E... which doesn't seem to conform to an L or M standard of any sort

Are my assumptions that this is the best filtration possible correct?  Are we talking that it meets the HEPA standard noted earlier ("99.997% of all particulates down to 0.3 microns")?

First off, L & M classification is a European standard, and does not apply to Australia, and HEPA is an American standard, and as such does not apply to Australia either.

Basically, every vac Festool makes is at least an L class vac, the lowest filtration standard in Europe. And then with some bells and whistles added they become an M or HEPA vac.

For the M class a suction alarm is added that monitors the suction that goes through the hose. If the suction drops below a certain threshold, an alarm sounds so you know it is time to change the bag. That's all, it still uses the same filter as an L class vac.

To make it a HEPA vac, a HEPA filter is placed instead of the standard L class filter. For the rest, it's still the same vac as an L class vac. But the HEPA filter offers an improvement over the L filter. Not sure how much though.

So all you need to know now, does your vac have a HEPA filter, or a standard L class filter. I don't know much exactly of how Festool Australia sells and promotes its packages, but since it has HEPA in the name of the package, you would assume it comes with a HEPA filter. But with Festool, you never know for sure.

So I would suggest you contact Festool Australia by phone (not email) to ask them if your package has a HEPA filter or not. They have no official presence here on this forum, so you must contact them directly.

You could also post a picture here of the filter you have, people might be able to tell which one it is.

And I think it would have been better to post this question as a new topic instead of adding it to an existing thread from way back in 2015.

 

[Midnight Man]

And I think it would have been better to post this question as a new topic instead of adding it to an existing thread from way back in 2015.

Wow, that shows I wasn't watching the detail - sorry, and thank you Alex!  I noticed the thread on the main page, and completely missed looking at the dates in it, I assumed it was current - my bad.

Also, many thanks for the clarification and information, now I understand why I didn't understand before   Will check these details by phone as suggested

 

[demographic]

I need a new 'M class' sticker for my midi for use on site, where can i get one?

I wasnt aware that they made an M class midi.
One of those situations where other people on site might well kick up a fuss if they find out they had to fork out another two hundred or so quid to be fully compliant and then someone ambles on site with the cheaper one with fresh stickers...

 

[Steven Owen]

What I've been trying to work out is whether the 498994 HEPA filter (I believe standard in the US market) is better than the standard L/M main filter (496170). When I asked about using one with the CTL, one Festool guy hinted that I should "consider the specs of the M filtration vs the HEPA". I think he was trying to hint that HEPA would be no better, but that doesn't quite seem right, given the 99.9% (M) vs "99.997% of all particulates down to 0.3 microns" (HEPA). He was also hinting that HEPA is more about allergens (so perhaps trying to tell me it's no better for wood dust), but I couldn't read between the lines on that one.

The HEPA filters are definitely better than the standard filters. Wood dust can cause asthma and other health issues, and some wood dusts are carcinogenic in nature, or have additives that can be, so the higher the filtration levels the better. It's all about reducing the risk associated with the exposure, and the HEPA filters can certainly do that.

The question I have, is there really any appreciable difference in filtration between the standard L/M filter and a HEPA filter in normal use.  The bigger question is there really a meaningful difference for your health.  My gut says probably not.  The reason I say that is I believe the real issue would likely be the amount of uncaptured dust you're exposed to, not the exhaust from your high filtration vac.  Also keep in mind the limited amount of dust hobbyists are exposed to is far less likely to be dangerous to your health than professionals.  Still, if you are the health nut type a HEPA is pretty cheap piece of mind.     
 

The bigger mistake I see is people who quit wearing dust masks and respirators because they’re using Hepa Vac’s and HEPA filters.  That’s just unwise.  The mask is another layer of defence. 

I see guys sanding varnish and fiberglass all the time with HEPA Vacs and no dust masks.  You just have to shake your head.   

 

[Chinski]

Oh wow - so that's why there are so many M Class stickers being advertised on eBay!

This is a 2015 thread that basically states Festool M and L are same machine with same filter but M has added suction drop-off detection alarm - while auto-clean is optional and not part of the M standard.  Is this still correct?

But I'm sure I also read somewhere that my 2019 manufactured CTL 26 e will bleat if the pressure drops - so isn't that basically giving what you'd pay extra for an M to supply?

Thanks,

 

[GarryMartin]

This is a 2015 thread that basically states Festool M and L are same machine with same filter but M has added suction drop-off detection alarm - while auto-clean is optional and not part of the M standard.  Is this still correct?

Yes, still correct.

But I'm sure I also read somewhere that my 2019 manufactured CTL 26 e will bleat if the pressure drops - so isn't that basically giving what you'd pay extra for an M to supply?

Not that I'm aware of. In order to decide there is a blockage or bag full related to airflow, you'd need to be able to select the hose size as you can on an M class extractor, and that's not possible on the CTL 26 E.

 

[demographic]

Oh wow - so that's why there are so many M Class stickers being advertised on eBay!

This is a 2015 thread that basically states Festool M and L are same machine with same filter but M has added suction drop-off detection alarm - while auto-clean is optional and not part of the M standard.  Is this still correct?

But I'm sure I also read somewhere that my 2019 manufactured CTL 26 e will bleat if the pressure drops - so isn't that basically giving what you'd pay extra for an M to supply?

Thanks,

Run the vac, block off the flow for a few seconds and if it beeps its got it, if not then it hasn't.
Pretty sure CTLs don't but knock yerself out, give it a bash and see.

Looking on the net it seems that its only very recent Midis that can be M class so the people after the stickers are trying to pull a fast one.

Too many of those wallys and eventually the whole standard gets changed to an even more stringent one.

If that looks like I'm being tough on them? Tough, thems the rules.

 

[nifflerUK]

Thanks so much for this thread! I'm a homeowner in the UK with a house where every wall and bit of woodwork needs skimming and/or sanding thanks to the terrible painting done by previous owners.

Both my wife and I have dust allergies and for that, health reasons and to keep the mess minimal while redecorating I've been looking at Festool as a good dust extractor to use when sanding. I am relieved to see for home use I can save a bit of money and use 'L' rather than 'M' class and get the same filtration.

Has anyone thoughts on the CT 15? It's cheaper and doesn't have a 'L' rating, but uses the same filter as the CTL/M Mini/Midi and the same bag. I can't work out if any other change means that in use it will filter below the 'L' class ones - or it's a matter of certification only?

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Thanks so much for this thread! I'm a homeowner in the UK with a house where every wall and bit of woodwork needs skimming and/or sanding thanks to the terrible painting done by previous owners.

Both my wife and I have dust allergies and for that, health reasons and to keep the mess minimal while redecorating I've been looking at Festool as a good dust extractor to use when sanding. I am relieved to see for home use I can save a bit of money and use 'L' rather than 'M' class and get the same filtration.

Has anyone thoughts on the CT 15? It's cheaper and doesn't have a 'L' rating, but uses the same filter as the CTL/M Mini/Midi and the same bag. I can't work out if any other change means that in use it will filter below the 'L' class ones - or it's a matter of certification only?

Welcome to the FOG from a fellow Brit. For the domestic application you describe, the CT15 will be just fine. Two important things to remember;

1 Festool extractors have a variable fan speed which you can adjust from the front panel. The reason for this is that a combination of fine sanding dust and hard suction power will blind/clog bags and filters quickly - so turn down the speed to minimum or low. This will still suck out the dust effectively, but transports it into the extractor more gently and at a much lower speed to prevent this from happening.

2 The quality of dust extraction isn’t just about a good extractor - it’s probably even more a function of how well-designed and effective the sander is. There are many machines (such as the Mirka Deros and various sanders in the Festool range) which have been designed from the ground up to be connected to an extractor for dust-free sanding. Many others haven’t. Given a certain (and perhaps finite) budget, I think it’s fair to say that you’ll achieve a better result using a high-quality sander hooked up to a cheap vacuum, rather than the other way round. It your budget stretches to good + good, then happy days.

Hope that helps.

 

[Coen]

Turning down the vac for sanding is about the sanding pad not 'sticking' to the work surface.

 

[nifflerUK]

Welcome to the FOG from a fellow Brit. For the domestic application you describe, the CT15 will be just fine.

Thanks, and that's great to hear. The variable speed/suction is something that's attracted me to Festool. I've seen sanders sticking or bouncing because the suction is too great and would rather pay more for a dust extractor that's got features beyond the on/off switch of other makes.

The quality of dust extraction isn’t just about a good extractor - it’s probably even more a function of how well-designed and effective the sander is. There are many machines (such as the Mirka Deros and various sanders in the Festool range) which have been designed from the ground up to be connected to an extractor for dust-free sanding. Many others haven’t. Given a certain (and perhaps finite) budget, I think it’s fair to say that you’ll achieve a better result using a high-quality sander hooked up to a cheap vacuum, rather than the other way round. It your budget stretches to good + good, then happy days.

This I wasn't aware of - or how expensive the good sanders were (I thought the dust extractor would be the expensive purchase!). After you've said this I've been loking at reviews of the cheaper ones (about half the price of the Deros) and yes, it's the dust capture that lets them down in most cases, especially for people who have owned higher quality ones before. At least the resale price of Mirka or Festool is good so I can tell myself I can buy it and recoup much of what I spend (though I suspect I won't want to part with it). The Mirka Deros looks like a good choice, or the ETS EC150/5 EQ-Plus (5mm is the right stroke for plaster?) but that costs more. And then something rectangular to get into corners and up to edges. Maybe the hand sanding blocks that take abranet for those.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=78271]nifflerUK[/member] You’re on the right track - especially your comment about resale value. This level of equipment holds its value incredibly well, and if you do decide to sell it once your project’s complete, you’ll get back a hefty chunk of its original cost, especially if you’ve kept it clean and nice. I bought a 5650CV 5mm Deros five years ago and I absolutely love it - it’s just superb in every way. The nozzle on the machine’s also a direct fit on the end of a 27mm Festool hose, it comes with both 125mm and 150mm pads, and the speed is fully variable.

Their Abranet idea was genius - the entire sanding pad is vacuumised with a large number of holes, and the dust is constantly sucked through the net across its entire surface area. I know that the initial cost is a choker, but for me, it was one of those purchases whose price was forgotten inside a week. For a house renovation, it’s also worth mentioning the fact that there’s a ‘savage’ HD version of Abranet available in 40-grit which is great at stripping paint from door frames, skirtings and so on - or at least removing all the high spots and surface imperfections quickly, before swapping over to something like regular 120-grit for final smoothing before paint. I can’t comment on the hand sanders because I don’t have one - all my corner sanding is done using a triangular pad on the end of a Fein multi-tool. There are plenty of in-depth reviews of the Mirka on YouTube.

There are many folks on here with a wide experience of the Festool sander range, so maybe someone more knowledgeable could chime in with advice on the best machine for your application as an alternative.