ETS 125 makes a "whistling" sound

[Jesse Cloud]

When I had the great good fortune to take a Festool class in Indiana this summer, we got a tour of the facility, including the service area.  I asked the service manager if he had any advice for us on how to prevent tool failure.  He basically said do what you need to do, the tools are built to take it, but it wouldn't hurt to clean your sander ever now and then. [laughing]

 

[peter halle]

One of the things that was brought up to us a year ago at training was that Festool wants you to use their tools, not baby them.  That is what they are designed for.  The tools cost more, because they design them to last longer.  If the average drill trigger will wear out in x intervals, they may design and spec a trigger that lasts 8x intervals for example.  Don't make them boutique tools.  Make money or have fun or both.

Peter

 

[AlexThePalex]

That screen shot that Peter posted states that, "the time taken for the tool to fail under these conditions is measured."  That suggests to me that the fine dust can and will cause the tool to fail, and the longer it can withstand those conditions, the better the tool.  Seems to back up Ken's point about dust being the cause of failure with electric sanders.

You're drawing the wrong conclusion here. Because the real conclusion you should draw is that anything fails if you throw enough dust at it. This also counts for air sanders. Heck, even a stone brick will eventually fail functioning as a brick after you've thrown enough dust at it.  

What manufacturers do is prepare for it. That's why they put tools in such test situations to see if they can stand up to the abuse, and if not, find ways to better this. You can bet these same tests are done with air sanders, and loads of other professional tools where you wouldn't even expect it. It's only normal. A manufacturer who didn't would be incompetent.

 

[justinmcf]

i agree with peter.

these festools are designed to be used and abused.

i do tend to look after them a bit more than my other brand name tools because of the price, and also because i know i will be selling them on ebay every five years.

i do regret selling my festool atf-55 after 10 years.
it might be a collectors item in 30 years time!

justin.

 

[nickao]

I agree!

The more expensive tools better take more of a beating not less!

I fins drywall dust is just the worst kind of dust for tools.

 

[peter halle]

When I was in the class with Jesse in July we saw TS-55's on the repair rack that had diamond blades on them.  I asked about that.  I was told, the granite guys don't care.  Use them and abuse them for three to four years and then have them serviced.  I asked about voiding the warranty.  The reply - They don't care.  They make them money.  Those tools were white with the caked on dust.

This is a true post.  I have not embellished or exaggerated.

Peter

 

[nickao]

I take that back, concrete dust is really bad on tools as well. I just don't see much crete dust in my work.  

 

[AlexThePalex]

Any type of dust coming from stone like material is bad because it is a hard anorganic material and has a crystalline nature. The crystals make sure that every particle has very sharp edges.

Wood and paint on the other hand consist out of organic material that is a lot more pliable, breaks sooner and doesn't have sharp edges like crystals have. Wood dust consist mainly out of small fibers, and paint dust is sort of a soft plastic, in lack of a better description.

 

[Deansocial]

When I was in the class with Jesse in July we saw TS-55's on the repair rack that had diamond blades on them.  I asked about that.  I was told, the granite guys don't care.  Use them and abuse them for three to four years and then have them serviced.  I asked about voiding the warranty.  The reply - They don't care.  They make them money.  Those tools were white with the caked on dust.

This is a true post.  I have not embellished or exaggerated.

Peter

i would also use my ts75 for cutting stone if i needed a cut that accurate, wouldnt even think twice about it, i Buy my tools to use them and abuse them to make me money.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

I never stated that electric sanders were not capable or not recommended for sanding drywall dust, cement, fiber cement siding, Azek, or anything else your mind could dream up.  I said that from my experience using and repairing tools and discussions with techs and engineers, quality, name brand air tools will perform better and last longer.  No matter how you want to look at it, electric motors and their individual driving components are the most delicate parts of the tool.  Those electrics with sealed bearings do much better.  An air tool's motor is comprised of sealed bearings, cylinder, rotor and vanes.  Of course the vanes wear down and the cylinders wear, but if oiled daily, airline moisture properly dealt with, the air tool will last longer before service and perform better.  Heat kills the electric motor before any other part of the electric tool.  Caked on drywall dust creates an airflow and heat problem within the motor.  Abrasive dust on the brushes and armature do expensive permanant damage.
I have both Hutchins air sanders with vacuum hoses and Festool sanders.  Both of the highest quality, yet I still feel put side by side, my Hutchins will outlast my Festool before it needs rebuilding, especially with drywall dust.
The Planex is a whole different animal specifically designed for that task.  If I am ever able to get one and the vac, I'm sure it will perform better than any sander I currently have for drywall sanding.
I'm not into babying my tools, just understanding their design limits, benefits and flaws so I can perform the work that needs to be performed, yet keep my tools producing for a long time.
I don't object to anyone desiring to use their Festool sander in the way they see fit.  Just stating as much as I've learned over the last 43 years.  I respect your use of your tool.  My tool, my way.

 

[nickao]

I would never use my Track saw for concrete. I would just rent the proper saw for the day. Now they have them that suck up 99.9 % of the dust, The track saw as everyone knows does not collect near that much. I do have a Stihl for use concrete cutting outside, never would even try to use it inside.

I might use a dust muzzle with a different saw, but not my TS 75. My skill 77 has a hell of a lot more balls than the Festool anyhow:

http://www.dustmuzzle.com/home.php

My tools are for wood and that's what I use them for, anything else I just get the proper tool.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I Of course the vanes wear down and the cylinders wear, but if oiled daily, airline moisture properly dealt with, the air tool will last longer before service and perform better.  Heat kills the electric motor before any other part of the electric tool.  Caked on drywall dust creates an airflow and heat problem within the motor.

Funny how you include a couple of "if's" when you talk about the air sander and not when you talk about the electric sander. Now "if" we baby the electric sander every day and wipe it's bottom when it soils itself, wouldn't that greatly improve it's longevity too?

I also wonder what you mean with 'perform better'. Does that mean you actually get a better finish with an air sander? On drywall? Or does 'perform better' only mean it will last longer before it needs service? By that kind of reasoning, you'd better get an all metal hand sanding block. That will last for ages before it needs service or replacement so it obviously performs a lot better even than an air sander. Now whether it's all that practical is another question ........

It is also funny how you talk about an air sander as if it's a stand alone unit. It is not, there needs to be a large compressor attached or it won't do anything. How's maintenance on the compressor? What does the compressor cost and how many electric sanders can we buy for that money? How does the cost effectiveness compare if we take the compressor into account? And things like comfort and accessibility? If we compare air and electric sanders side by side we need to take the entire system into consideration. Not just the business end, but all the gear we actually need to roll out to get the job done on site.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Alex,

Where the heck are you going with this?  Your responses were already covered so you're obviously just looking to spar.  You bring your electric friends, I'll bring my air friends and we'll have a rumble in the Arizona desert.  Really, find something better to do with your time.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Alex,

Where the heck are you going with this?  Your responses were already covered so you're obviously just looking to spar.  You bring your electric friends, I'll bring my air friends and we'll have a rumble in the Arizona desert.  Really, find something better to do with your time.

[eek] What's going om here? People don't know how to have a discussion anymore? Spar? What's that for ridiculous answer? Since when is a discussion something malicious?

I got this same response in another thread not long ago. I can not understand this. Is it somehow considered bad manners in America to go into a subject a little deeper? Are we required to only make one post and then shut up? Where I come from we have an open minded culture and can discuss a subject until we get to the bottom of it. That is not considered 'sparring'. It is considered 'fruitful interaction'.

Ken, you say my responses were covered, well, I don't feel the same way about that. Your answer brings up more questions in my mind and points you didn't cover with your answer, so I simply ask them. That's what I thought forums of this type were for. I wasn't aware of the fact that I am required to keep my mouth shut after you said something.

I find your accusation here very bad manners and the same goes for your suggestion that I should 'find something better to do with my time'. If you don't think it's worth your time to give an answer, well fine, stay silent if you want to, but don't start to say these weird things to me.

 

[jvsteenb]

The main design challenge in an electric sander is getting the cooling air to the motor without getting the dust along with it. Air sanders don't have this problem, as they're primarily cooled by the supply air, and have a positive pressure difference towards the surrounding air. So the motor effectively can not accumulate dust inside. Bearings may still get dusty, but they can be effectively sealed and/or supplied with a little bit of the exhaust air to combat the dust. At the cost of less power efficiency, a good deal of the bulk and the possible dust contamination problems are effectively repositioned towards the compressor, where it's a lot easier to deal with.

"Soft" organic dust may cake and disturb an electric motor's cooling efficiency, but that can be factored in during the design phase, and professional grade tools are designed with a lot of overhead in this department.
As long as it's cleaned regularly and potentially corrosive dust doesn't get the opportunity to eat away the metal parts, it's usually not that big a problem (unless you're in a marine environment, but that's a whole new ballgame).
"Hard" mineral dust is a different story, as it's also potentially very abrasive - that's where air sanders shine.

But an air sander needs a LOT of air, so it's usually not very efficient for jobs "on location" as it's seldom effective to carry a large compressor to a jobsite. Think 7.5 HP compressors as a bottom line if you want to be sanding continuously and don't want to buy a new compressor every 3-5 months.... This size compressor won't usually run of a residential grade electric circuit, and the ones that will (3.5 to 4.5 HP tops) just won't cut it in the long run. That's why drywall sanding is usually done with electric sanders.
Unlike the Planex, some manufacturers ( Like Flex ) have chosen to put the motor housing of their longneck wallsanders out of harms way and use a long flexible axle ( like a brushcutter ) to drive the sanding head. That's not a choice that's justified by the different weight distribution or the simple mechanics (it's a lot more complex) , but handling dust in the powerpack will have certainly played a big part in that decision.

However you put it: drywall sanding is hard on sanders, but a lot more so on electric sanders, due to design issues. A good design may keep problems at bay for a good while, but an air sander has a distinctive advantage in this field.
It may however be far more cost effective to use electric sanders and factor in the cost of replacing them - for a decent air supply system will buy a LOT of prime quality electric sanders.
Stationary, like in a permanent workshop or factory setting, I think the air sander has the advantage, and a decent one as well. For mobile use, like in a clients home, it probably won't  be cost effective.

Just my take, probably not even worth the usual 0.02 ....

Regards,

Job

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Thanks Job.  I appreciate your positive input to this thread.  For what it's worth, I'm able to run (with great results) my Hutchins DA on not only my big Quincy QR, but also smaller stuff like my 3hp Dayton 230v portable and my 2hp 120v hand carry Thomas 2820 I believe is the model number.  Different air tools react differently to the available cfm.  Some need huge amounts of air, others seem to be more efficient in their use of less.  Design differences in the air motor.  Even on my monster, 18cfm wasn't enough to drive my big Snap-On 1/2 inch impact to get it's full torque.  That day was a surprise.  Had to borrow a friends Ingersoll-Rand just to break a crank pulley bolt free.

 

[jvsteenb]

It's all about dutycycle. I have two compressors: one old 2 cyl 3HP belt driven compressor with a 25 gallon tank 14 cfm ( net effectively 9,5 cfm ) and a very nice portable 2,5 HP 5,5 gallon twintank direct driven powerpack that does a net effective 7,5 cfm. I don't consider the bigger one portable - at 150 lbs, it's just about movable. Both will run my old excenter weight RO air sander just fine, but not continuously. Especially with the 8" teller, I will get a 50% effective dutycycle max from the big compressor, and even less from the portable one. With the 6"teller, it's a little better, but continuous sanding is not an option. A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to try one of the nice Festool RO air sanders ( 6", 7mm stroke ) and that used at least the same amount of air, perhaps even a bit more. No problem when you sand a couple of seams at a time, but sometimes you need 100% dutycycle. So unless your sanding isn't ever going to be needing 100% duty cycle, I would consider this unfeasable in a commercial "time-equals-money" setting.When you need a drywall sander in a commercial setting, I think you wouldn't want to be restricted in you planned workflow by sanders at less then 100 % dutycycle. Of course that's just me, and my opinion is only valid from my very personal viewpoint.

[even-farther-off-topic-mode]
BTW I recognize your problems with an airdriven impact wrench and a crank pulley bolt.... been there, tried to do that...
I managed to tackle the problem by using a very short piece (10 ft) of air hose with a 10mm ID run directly off the tank, oiling it by dripping a few drops of oil into the tool beforehand. That way, the only restrictions were the couplings, and I use DIN, which is less restrictive then the Orion type. This way, The big 1" Bosch impact I borrowed could empty the 25 gallon tank in only a couple of seconds, and that did the trick. Try for 4 seconds, let the compressor catch up, try again.... gotcha!
[/even-farther-off-topic-mode]

Regards,

Job

 

[imaginarynumber]

My old ro150 used to do this from time to time (ie the whistle). it was normally the result of large particles being sucked in, eg bits of wall paper, rather than dust.

Incidentally I never had (motor) dust ingress problems when sanding heavy dusts such as gypsum. After 7 years the only problem was the nylon gears disintegrating.