Festool and Flooring

[Trevor H]

The best way to start this topic would be to introduce myself. I work in Lincoln NE for Timmy C, that kat you always see online here. Before working with Timmy and jumping into the Festool world I was strictly a wood floor installer and refinisher, along with building a house or two here and there. I Never used a Festool in my life up until 2 years ago.

Now I look back to those days of old and try to figure out how I ever got by without Festool. When it comes to sanding a wood floor, the biggest concern for me is time. The biggest concern for the customer is dust and flawless work. Festool has made my life so much easier. The other day I finished some stairs that were 100 + years old. Instead of pulling out the edger i decided to test out the Rotex and the Deltex. The stairs were flawless. The coarse mode in the rotex and a 24 grit paper was enough to rip off the lacquer. Then instead of handscraping corners I used the Deltex. Then I polished the stairs with the rotex once again. I hate hand scraping corners and after using the deltex i found the time spent is equal. From now on Deltex is the way to go.

Another floor I did was a cut in Border to an existing floor. Here the TS 55 or 75 work just as well with an 8 ft rail. Plunge cut your line, run the 1400 router down one side and make a groove. Throw in your boards and run.

The Festool line is a must have for folks like me. My time on the job is cut in half and talk about dust free. I use my CT 33 on every job, i even hook my edger up to it when i can. ((I'm still working on the perfect adapter). I 'm taking hints on that!) I use it for my buffer in between coats. The biggest thing though is the fact that my customers are amazed that i can plunge cut, sand and buff inside the house with no trace of dust anywhere. Customers are also amazed by how organized you look when you walk into there house. Throw your systainers on a mobile base roll it into the house and the customers are blown away!

So basically I'm trying to rustle up flooring ideas with Festool, experiences, drawbacks, advantages, ideas you have. All i have found is advantages so far!

 

[Eli]

Thanks for sharing your work Trevor.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Nice work, Trevor!  Thanks for sharing.
Dave R.

 

[Brian Livingstone]

Hi Trevor,

Nice work, and a timely post for me.  My Deltex 93 arrived today.  I purchased it primarily for refinishing a set of hardwood stairs.  Unfortunately, my budget precludes me from purchasing a Rotex at this time.  However, my Bosch 6" ROS, should do the job for now (I am limiting myself to one festool tool purchase per month).

Is there any advice you can offer on refinishing stairs, and/or the Deltex ?  What is your preferred finish of choice for stairs. 

Thank you.

Brian

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
This is something I understand.  I wrote a review on using the Rotex for refinishing the foyer floor in my home (READ REVIEW HERE).

After refinishing my foyer with the Rotex, I went back to renting one of those big monster sanders for my kitchen, and even though it was easier on my back there was a mess of dust to clean up.  My following sanding project was a second-floor porch, and the Rotex RO 150 and Deltex sanders took down the old paint quickly and nicely.  So now I'm sort of in the middle on this.

I have to refinish my living room/dining room, a very large space.  I'm not sure if I would use the Festool sanders, but I'm of two minds on this: it seems like more difficult work using the Festool sanders, but then again the dust collection makes me think it could be an option even for larger surfaces.

I've summarized the factors this way:

Using the Rotex
Pros:

• More control (better visibility and smoother process)
• Excellent dust collection (much less clean-up time)
• Tool and supplies on hand (don't need to go back and forth to rental center)
• Less noise

Cons:

• Slower sanding
• Harder on the back

Using a Drum Sander:
Pros:

• Faster sanding
• Easier on the back

Cons:

• Less control (worse visibility and rougher process)
• Bad dust collection (much more clean-up time)
• Need to rent tools and supplies (time spent going back and forth to rental center)
• More noise

Even though time seems to be on the side of the drum sander, in the end I'm not even so sure about this.  The Festool sanders and sanding disks are on hand, so I don't have to go back and forth to the rental center.  In the end, I think the time difference is not that great.  For me, it comes down to workability and fatigue.

I'd be very interested in hearing from other people who have used Festool sanders for refinishing floors, and if maybe you've come up with strategies that improve the process.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[semenza]

Even though time seems to be on the side of the drum sander, in the end I'm not even so sure about this.  The Festool sanders and sanding disks are on hand, so I don't have to go back and forth to the rental center.  In the end, I think the time difference is not that great.  For me, it comes down to workability and fatigue.

I'd be very interested in hearing from other people who have used Festool sanders for refinishing floors, and if maybe you've come up with strategies that improve the process.

Thanks,
Matthew

Hi,

        Maybe the Rotex  is the way to go. Just do the job in several sections / time periods to save on the fatigue. Plus you won't have to breath dust for the next week afterwords. Since  you won't be spending  money to rent , you can use the savings for another Festool so that you can do other jobs more easily. Therefore making up the time difference down the road on something else!

Seth

 

[Dave Ronyak]

I have refinished ~1200 sq ft of oak parquet flooring and a lot mahogany and oak trim and doors using a 5" Bosch RO (before my jump into Festool) and more recently with my Deltex 93 and RO 125.  To Matthew's observations I would add

1) Control, control, control with the smaller RO sanders compared to the monster drum sanders from the rental stores.  Unless you are experienced in using one of those monsters, you are likely to gouge and groove your floor.  The floors in my old house definitely had been sanded before (I estimate at least 2X). likely by a pro using a monster, with up to 1/8 inch thickness sanded away as evidenced from the step in thickness at the edges where the shoe molding contacts the floor.  Thus, not much was remaining of the top ply of the oak parquet, and thus little room for further errors in depth control.  Those Bruce parquet tiles would need to be replaced if the top layer is sanded completely through.

2) Quality and smooooothness of the finish compared to what most amateurs and even some pros will obtain using the monster drum sanders.  I found my using that little RO resulted in smoothing out the slight undulations that were present from the previous sanding and refinishing job.  There weren't any gouges or other spots where the previous job had gotten out of control.  These undulations weren't apparent to someone standing on the floor before I sanded and refinished it, but were immediately apparent as I started to sand with the RO (using 40 or 50 grit and working up through 100 - 120 grit) but several contractors and interior decorators who have been in my house after I refinished the floor have given unsolicited compliments on it.

3) The ability to do a little area at a time (since you aren't paying for tool rental).  I did 100 - 200 sq ft per day, and applied varnish to the freshly sanded area the same day.  Because the joints between adjacent parquet tiles are quite visible, it was simple to mask off the border and brush on the varnish.  This may not be advisable if you are staining the floor.  That was important to me because I was living in the house and there was furniture, etc. that had to be relocated, and it was in the winter so I wanted to minimize solvent fumes.

Dave R.

 

[Lou Miller]

I guess it comes down to how well you can use the large drum sanders. When properly used on a large surface, the drum sander is definitely going to get the floor flatter and more uniform. The Rotex will certainly work fine, but due to its smaller size, its going to tend to follow the bigger peaks and valleys in the floor rather than level them. To me, nothing looks worse than a floor with all kinds of waves in it and that's what the Rotex is going to give you on such a large area. The large drum sanders are basically just like using a large belt sander. If you were trying to flatten a panel, which tool works better for that, a belt sander or a ROS? In the right hands, the belt sander does...

In a perfect world, the drum sander with maybe 40 grit to level everything and then the Rotex from that point on would be an excellent way of doing things.

 

 

[Jake]

I recently installed 1500 ft of w/oak. Used this
Good dust collection, easy to use. Floor came out flat.

Jake

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Makes complete sense to me!

 

[Dan Clark]

It turns out that a fellow in another forum is finishing his new floors.  Here's his post about sanding the floor with a "EZ-Sand Orbital Sander" from Clarke American Sanders:http://www.woodworkslive.com/index.php/topic,6415.0.html.  It uses three 7-inch disks.  He's pretty happy with it. 

Here's the link to the sander:http://www.americansanders.com/Prod...6&PHPSESSID=c8582bf2a8fa3ca385c8406463977f72.  I have no idea where you'd rent one of these puppies.

Dan.

 

[woodshopdemos]

Metthew,
  This is a thought or two on the RO and your back. I feel your pain. I have no experience with floors but a lot with the RO150...I love it.

I have many years on you and the back zings me rather rapidly. I have found any number of aids...and more than letting Andrea or Elena do it for me, but that does work damn well.

I find, that there is always a posture that slays me when I run that and there is usually one that allows me to not suffer so quickly. Look at your arm and how you hold it for clues. I happen to like the old 150 over the newer one, even though the ergonomics is integrated with the new. But in either case, my (your) hand is in an uncorftable position with or without the load. A small boom on the tool only would be great. If you were in manufacturing, they would install such a thing. A small kids toy (wheels) might be used...just be creative and you might well be able to reduce the back ache potential.

 

[Dan Clark]

This may be a little over the top, but if you have a lot of floor to do, it might be worthwhile:

Here's the web page:http://www.contractorsdirect.com/Master-Rac-Knee-Pads;jsessionid=ac112b6b1f4334752115b06741e39896bf427cceb9a3.e3eTa3aSaxmTe34Pa38Ta38Obx90?sc=11&category=23215

I've seen a pic of a tile installation guy using one.  They are $256 for the unit which can configured in three different ways.

Dan.

 

[Dan Clark]

I have a pair of Pro Knees - custom knee and shin pads.  They reduce the stress on your back and knees tremendously.  In the John Bridge forum, many of the tile guys swear by Pro Knees or the Racatac dolly.  Here's a pic:

And here's the website:http://www.proknee.com/products/index.shtml.

Dan.

 

[Trevor H]

When i sand a large Floor, I use the Hummel made by Lagler, also a German company. The Hummel is an unbelievable belt sander when it comes to dust containment. It is true, if you don't know how to use one, you can seriously damage your floor and it will show in the finish especially with a dark stain! I fix many a floor where the do it your-selfer rented machines that were either to weak or they weren't taught how to run them. More money for the floor company but a bad back and aching knees for the homeowner. Which by the way, Troxell Knee pads are the best I've found so far! Also these Handymen stores charge you an arm and a leg for the sanders and material. In most areas in the U.S. you can't even rent a belt or drum sander like my hummel!

I Usually pass twice with the Hummel, once with 36, then 60 grit belts. Then I use a clarke floor edger to remove the drum marks. I am experimenting like crazy to make my Ct 33 work with my edger and I have almost made it. I will post when I find the perfect adapter. For now it still includes some duct tape! Then I pass again with the belt but this time going up to 60 grit and sometimes 80 or 100 grit. The Hummel has a setting that allows for different cut rates. I then Buff the Raw wood with a 120 grit screen sometimes bumping up to 180. Now time for the Rotex, and Deltex!

In the past i hand scraped but now i start with my deltex, removing all the corner marks you see from the previous sanding. Then I take out the Rotex and polish out the marks left by my 60 or 80 grit edger paper. Using the Rotex to polish the edges where the drum and edger lapse eliminates the swirls and scratches you may see in natural or strong artificial light.

For Small areas i rough off with the rotex and a low grit paper slowly moving up to about 120 grit. I also use it to buff out in between coats if I am doing stairs or landings!

The finish I usually use, to answer an earlier post by Mr Livingstone, is:

Duraseal, an oil-based polyurethane.
Bona Traffic or mega waterbased finishes
Or tongue oil this finish makes it easier for the homeowner to touch up without having to call a professional and it blends right in.

The finish depends on the wood of course and the conditions and environment the wood is in. I Seal the floor or stairs with Bona Dri Fast sealer which is an oil based product. The dry time is fast. I then buff out with my 16" buffer or my rotex on stairs and landings with a 120 - 180 grit screen or pad. Now you can apply water or oil on top of the Dri Fast sealer. Dri Fast also works with Duraseal if you want an oil based product.

All in all if it wasn't for the rotex and deltex floor sanding would be a lot tougher! However, It's not just sanding that Festool makes so easy! I could go on and on about the trion, ts 75, etc.

Have a great day!

 

[Trevor H]

i should point out those grits are used in refinishing! if it's a new floor you may want to use something higher. Never jump more that 20 grit at a time when sanding the floor and remember to polish in-between coats with the right material and never work the finish too much so you don't let the air in.

 

[ririmarqueverte]

I know, i know, it is not imported yet to the US but THIS (RAS 180)  is a very powerful tool. Much quicker than the Rotex and although the dust collection is not as good as with the Rotex it is still much better than with a drum sander. If you guys put some pressure on Festool US maybe...

 

[Tinker]

A short time ago, ther was a discussion about belt sanders. My very first comment had been that I did not like them in the least, or words to that effect.  We were talking about small hand held BS's and my experiences with them had always been somewhat disasterous, to say the least.  Along the way, i was somewhat reprimanded for being too narrow minded, as the reprimander had had wonderful success with an Elu (I think it was) BS with a frame.  Others indicated the value of their own Festool BS with frame and told of the fine tollerances that could be accomplished with such a tool.  I, personally, had tried, unsuccessfully to make a frame for my old BS and had discarded the idea many moons ago.  With further interrest as the discussion wore on, i did become somewhat converted in my thinking.  I still would not buy a small belt sander alone, but if it ever comes to US, i will certainly look very hard at that Festool BS with the frame.  I am thinking here, that might be a creditable option for small floors as I think it would be faster than the RO sanders, and with the frame limiting depth of cut, it would be very accurate over larger surfaces.

I have used the large and very heavy rotary floor sanders.  Having had lots of experience with concrete troweling machines, i had little trouble with gouging with that type of sander, but I assure you, one lapse of attention and there could be BIG trouble.  And yes, the dust was definitely not one of the finer points to using that machine.  not as bad as with the big belt sanders, but rooms did need to be closed off.  I immagine big improvements have been made in the 40 some odd years since i used one.
Tinker

 

[Lou Miller]

When i sand a large Floor, I use the Hummel made by Lagler, also a German company. The Hummel is an unbelievable belt sander when it comes to dust containment.

The guys that do my floors (I do the installs, they do the finishing) use that sander and I agree that its very good when it comes to dust. I think most of the people here are thinking of the older/cheaper type sanders (like the ones you get in a rental shop) when discussing the belt sanders. I get lots of floors done in homes that are lived in and dust is never a problem.

 

[ririmarqueverte]

You're right Tinker. The RAS 180 is a very friendly machine even when using 24 grit. I do not why but i can only say that it is much easier to control than the Rotex 150 when using the aggressive mode. In fact i've just done a floor recently and after about an hour i felt i could control the RAS using only one hand.