Festool CMS??

[Petey83]

Started looking at the Festool CMS system as an alternative to a stand alone table saw and router table. Hoping to have a small garage later this year when i move and have started to price up what i would like in there. Given i already have an OF 1010 and OF1400 as well as a TS55 and an MFT3 I am starting to wonder if a full CMS set up would work out cheaper than a decent small site style table saw and a router table with dedicated Hitachi / Dewalt / trend router bought to go in it....

Any views on how good the system is compared to stand alone tools and any advice on what i would need would be great as CMS descriptions on Axminster etc don't explain enough for me. Also do i need the stand alone CMS base frame or could i get one to bolt to the side of the MFT 3??

cheers

 

[GarryMartin]

If they'll only stay in your garage, and won't venture out for day trips, the CMS can be quite an expensive option. Even though you already have the TS 55 and OF 1400, the inserts aren't exactly cheap, and the various options can add to the cost very quickly.

There is the standalone CMS-GE (four legs) and then the MFT/3-VL (two legs) that has to be used in conjunction with a MFT/3 table. Both take inserts for various tools (OF routers, Carvex jigsaws, TS saws, etc.) and can make use of various extension tables, a sliding table, and a couple of fences (one for CMS-GE, one for MFT/3-VL). Because of the side profiles on the tables, you can also do things like use the Kapex extension wings for added infeed/outfeed support.

It's actually a very versatile system, but it is really at its best when you need something that's at least semi-portable.

I have a collection of pretty much most of the CMS bits and pieces, so if you have some more specific questions, fire away.

 

[Petey83]

Thanks Garry. the one main thing in my head is how quick and easy is it to change inserts and fit / remove the tools into the inserts?

My thinking is we are looking at period properties as neither me nor my partner really like new builds and as such i am expecting an older single car garage as my most likely location for my workshop (unless I am lucky and find somewhere with a double garage or proper outbuilding) as such i am thinking space will be at a premium and everything will need to be movable around the workshop as i also plan to get a bandsaw and a decent induction motor PT plus a solid traditional work bench (this wont be movable).

I am only a hobbyist so will never likely need to take the kit on travels with me unless by some miracle someone wants to pay me an IT service delivery managers salary to work as a carpenter or cabinet makers apprentice!  ;D ;D

 

[Acrobat]

Hi Petey
I'm a DIY'er who has used my (second hand) CMS table for all sorts of things - around renovating my home to various crafts and making small furniture items and gifts.  I'd love to have room for a dedicated table saw with router wing and sliding table but just not practical. I too started with just the track saw then the 1010 router then the jigsaw etc etc. Before I got the CMS I probably would have looked at many traditional table saws but the sheer size and manouverablity of them put them out of the equation for me. I operate from my garage, as do a lot of foggers here seem to, and always have to be able to park the car back in. Sacrilege I know but that's just the way it is. At least its a large garage. If you can source a second hand CMS table get the TS insert plate for it. The sliding table attachment is awesome too. I find once you have swapped the TS55 in and out a few times it gets easier to do. Peter Parfitt has a video  demonstrating how he does it and how long/short it takes, although I am not as quick as he is so I get frustrated with having to set it up or dismantle it. I find it's the one tool insert that is the most hassle and sometimes question whether I can do the task with another tool instead of having to remove/insert it. I have thought it would be nice to have a second TS55!
To keep costs down, I've made my own insert plates for the belt sander, EHL planer and carvex jigsaw but the Festool router insert kit whilst damn expensive, was worth getting for me.
I have put up shelf brackets which I rest each module on within easy reach, now so easy to swap tools quickly.  I still find it a hassle to remove the TS saw to use out but other than that having tools set in the plates ready to insert is awesome. I put the CMS in a small wheeled cart, level with my MFT table. It's still free to lift out and take to a job site elsewhere if needed but I haven't yet needed to.
If I didn't have any Festools already, cost-wise, I would now look favourably perhaps at the new Triton workbench. It's a heck of a lot cheaper and quite a new take on the old triton workcentre I used to have from what I can tell.

 

[Kev]

Many moons ago I had some Triton gear (when it was a great new Ozzie idea). It met a need and still does today,.

The CMS gear is obviously of a high quality portable, commercial quality. I spent so long in "analysis paralysis" over whether to get a bunch of CMS stuff for routing and sawing or just dive in and get a Hammer saw/spindle later when I had space. In the end I went with a load of CMS gear and have dedicated tools to the stations (costing the equivalent of a Hammer saw/spindle).

Now I'm looking at moving house and planning a much bigger workshop ... so now I'm looking at the more expensive Felder gear [embarassed]

At some point you need to consider whether you're buying tools to do the jobs yourself and actually save money or if you're just hooked on the enjoyment of it all. Nothing wrong with either, but you need to know where you stand from a decision making perspective!!

 

[Stone Message]

I used to have a medium sized table saw and thought that it was pretty good. When I needed more space I sold it and bought a cheap but cheerful small table saw as I knew that there were limits to what I could do with the TS55 and guide rails. The small saw just did not have the accuracy or the quality of finish that I had been used to. Then when I wanted to do some rebate work I found that it could only be done by removing the riving knife completely. Very dangerous - it had to go.

I then turned to the CMS-TS and now I have the best of both worlds - in fact it is even better than that.

My saw cuts are superb and I can get as accurate as woodworking demands without any difficulty at all. Because the TS55 has its own riving knife I can do rebate work safely and this means much cleaner and quicker work. I almost always do a couple of rebates before taking the piece to the router table and more and more often do the complete rebate on the CMS-TS.

I have a relatively small workshop and so kit has to be moved around a lot and despite my damaged back I can move the CMS-TS quite comfortably.

Even if my workshop space doubled over night I would not go back to a big table saw and I would not settle for a site saw or make any other compromise - the CMS-TS is, for me, the most brilliant solution.

Peter

 

[Holmz]

If you were starting from scratch then it could be Erika to replace contractor saw, Kapex and router table. Or a contractor saw such as a Metablo, dewalt, sawstop etc if you did not need the cross cuts, but you still need the router table.

Once you have the router and saw then it seems easy to justify considering a CMS or Presario... but I doubt you can bet the price of a deWalt and a router table. It should give you time to work it out before your move is compete.

 

[Petey83]

well looking at comparative costs the CMS does come out a little more expensive when compared to a set up like the UJK pro table with lift and a separate router to go in it plus all the little bits and pieces for it and then the table saw would be the TS250m from Axy but reading Peter P's comments i am not sure how good and worth while such a saw would be.

Now the total cost of the CMS does allow me to still get the AH106 PT i was looking at but the money for a bandsaw and chip extractor is then very very limited so I would need to try and hunt down some second hand bargains as budget for workshop set up is a modest £3k and that needs to include timber to make a work bench and storage cupboards.

 

[paulc75]

I went for the CMS-GE as I needed the portability, however when I purchased it I ordered the TS55 insert instead of the one for the R. I then picked up a secondhand TS55 solely for use in the CMS. That way I still had the R to hand if needed. I also have the OF insert with a 2200 underneath, which leaves the 1400 free for handheld work. The initial cost was quite juicy but my workflow has increased exponentially.

I can also use my MFTs for out feed tables and as Garry mentioned the kapex wings will clip straight on for extra I feed support. I would consider the sliding table and LA rip fence mandatory purchases to fully utilise all the capabilities of the system. Another consideration would be the extraction hose set from the cs50/70.

Swapping inserts over takes maybe 2 minutes. Having the second plunge saw is a great help as I don't have to fiddle about taking it in or out.

If you lock the sliding table in place you can clip a UGwing to it for extra Infeed support

 

[Petey83]

can you attach the standalone CMS to the MFT3 on any of its 4 sides? Thinking that if i do decide to go for it then the mft3 wors as an outfeed and when not in use i can replace the insert with a piece of MDF and use as work piece support.

the main constraint i see is i will probably need to have everything pushed up against walls so I will need to have the CMS at 90 degrees to how itrs normally attached to the MFT3 in photos

 

[paulc75]

I don't know of any way to attach the GE unit to the MFT, however if you place it at 90degrees to your MFT you should still be able to achieve what you're after

 

[Petey83]

perfect - thanks fo rthe pics as it's helped me visualise it a lot better and in a simular sort of space to what i expectto have. I will be wanting to get a traditional solid workbench in as well but given i am opting to make one myself it gives me the ability to make one to fit.

 

[GarryMartin]

Whereabouts in the UK are you [member=57897]Petey83[/member]? Perhaps you could visit one of us to see a few of the options in person?

 

[Gregor]

I don't know of any way to attach the GE unit to the MFT, however if you place it at 90degrees to your MFT you should still be able to achieve what you're after

Nice use of the UG wing, would be cooler if it wouldn't have the inbuilt fence though since as-is it limits the width of the leftover board to the width between the blade and the UG fence...

My take on the outfeed so the material won't get stuck on the MFT corner:

Glue some small triangle strips (which one can route quickly) to both bottom ends of some MDF boards (I made mine ~10 cm wide each) that you can then drop into the V-groves of the MFT and the CMS glosing the gap between them.Make one with a small cutout on one side for the clamp of the LA fence, so that this drop-in board moves with the LA fence and the others are put in as needed on the front for cuts with fence set firther away from the blade.

You can extend the outfeed with this to any length you need, just glue some vertical strips of MDF on the bottom over the length to stop the drop-in boards from wobbling when making longer ones in case you want to space the MFT and CMS more.

 

[Petey83]

I am in Enfield North London so if anyone near by does have the CMS set up i can have a nose around that would be useful.

Looking at the pics posted by [member=53222]paulc75[/member] it has helped me visualize the sort of working space i expect to have which is not as big in reality as it is in my head when i am planning what machinery i want to buy. I am leaning more and more towards the CMS system now and may even spring for a TS75 to live in CMS module in order to avoid change over plus it means i always have the bigger capacity if i need it in future as my work and project types develop.

If i start tucking some additional money aside now (cut the daily coffee shop budget  :-[) i can probably supplement the £3k budget i have set aside out of the profits from the sale of the flat

 

[sancho57]

In my opinion the CMS should do you for what you need. I use the saw, scroll and router modules. Plus I made a module for my bench top belt,disk sander. Stacking the modules on racks is a space saver.plus in a small space you will be needing every inch of space. A stand alone table saw will use valuable space.

 

[GarryMartin]

Perhaps if it's not an immediate purchase (?) you could make it to [member=10147]jobsworth[/member]'s FOG BBQ in June? Ron has a CMS-GE and various inserts etc. and I could certainly bring along the MFT/3-VL if you wanted to compare them.

 

[sancho57]

Good idea Garry.

There should be lots there for him to look at and play with.

 

[DiscoStu]

I don't have a CMS. I have a OF1400 and a TS55 but I don't think I'd go for a CMS. I do also have a Triton router and table and a TS200 table saw. My issue is that I'd find it a pain to be swapping inserts and tools. Today is a perfect example. I needed a small piece of MDF around 150mm X 200mm. I'd been using my TS55 to cut some sheet material and found an off cut that was big enough to use. I used the TS200 to cut to size and then the Triton to put a round over on it. Took me about 2 or 3 minutes. If I'd have tried that with a OF 1400 and TS55 with a CMS then I'd have taken a lot longer. I'd have had to take the TS55 and mount that, then take that out and mount the OF 1400.

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