Festool Drill Ergonomics / Evolution

[Brev]

Hello all,

I was hoping to start a discussion on Festool drills, their evolution, and where we might see them going.

I have owned the original CXS and a T18 / TID 18 set, but have also tried others belonging to friends. Personally I find the ergonomics not quite right for my hand on some of the 18 volt drills -- until I got a TID. The ergonomics and sculpting of the grip area feels so much more refined than the T18. The T18 grip area always felt too long to me (from trigger towards back of drill) and a bit fat. I could never get comfortable with the T18, so I ended up selling the set.

The new TPC, and even newer TXS 18 share the updated grip of the TID which seems like a really great update and has me interested in the 18 volt T series drills again.

Where do you see the T18 going from here? I hope that it gets an ergonomic update and stays in the line as a mid power drill between the heavy duty TPC and lightweight TXS 18.

 

[Brev]

T18
View attachment 1

TID 18
View attachment 2

TPC
View attachment 3

TXS 18
View attachment 4

 

[six-point socket II]

What ever they do, I hope the next drill/driver(s) are still somewhat “Festool” and not just re-branded Flex units.

That said, the original PDC is by far my most used drill/driver and I happen to like the handle overall, get along with it really well. The only improvement on the newer handle design to me is the area between thumb and indexing finger up to the palm, that is definitely a little more comfortable I must say.

And yes, definitely hope they keep offering something like the T18. However, the “entry level”/ fixed chuck T18 could just go in my opinion.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Crazyraceguy]

My go-to has been Makita, since the first availability of the LXT. IIRC, that was fall of '07? back when the only batteries were 3ah. The "white version", which came along later, was a lower cost homeowner oriented set, with 1.5ah batteries. Festool wasn't even on my radar at that point.
I also used the Bosch (pocket driver) back then, but I never liked the grip. They had the battery-up-the-grip style and I always thought it felt backward, but as they expanded the line, I stayed with them.

When I discovered the CXS, all bets were off. I sold all of the Bosch drills/drivers and actually paid for the CXS with it, since it could do all of the things and save space. I had also moved up to the special projects department, where having multiple drills set up at once was not as important.
Although I am generally opposed to "Swiss Army knife" type tools, because their auxiliary things get in the way, the CXS is not like that at all.

I have never gotten into the bigger Festool drills because I have been so satisfied otherwise. In fact, the CXS is the only Festool batteries I have.

 

[mino]

My go-to has been Makita, since the first availability of the LXT. IIRC, that was fall of '07? back when the only batteries were 3ah. The "white version", which came along later, was a lower cost homeowner oriented set, with 1.5ah batteries. Festool wasn't even on my radar at that point.
I also used the Bosch (pocket driver) back then, but I never liked the grip. They had the battery-up-the-grip style and I always thought it felt backward, but as they expanded the line, I stayed with them.

When I discovered the CXS, all bets were off. I sold all of the Bosch drills/drivers and actually paid for the CXS with it, since it could do all of the things and save space. I had also moved up to the special projects department, where having multiple drills set up at once was not as important.
Although I am generally opposed to "Swiss Army knife" type tools, because their auxiliary things get in the way, the CXS is not like that at all.

I have never gotten into the bigger Festool drills because I have been so satisfied otherwise. In fact, the CXS is the only Festool batteries I have.

When retiring, do consider the T18+3. It is such a quiet and pleasurable drill to use and an excellent complement for the CXS with the Centroteck quick-replace chucks as well as the angle and excentric chucks. It feels like a bigger CSX (original).

Then the TPC is an excellent heavy drill, but, frankly, it is an overkill for non-pro use and Makita makes cheaper and stronger "monster" drills.

As for the evolution, it is funny no one starts with the CDD and TDD NiCD lines ...

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=61254]mino[/member] I haven't used a NiCad battery in years, are they even available anymore?
As far as retiring, I really don't see the need to change? I might even be able to get a few bucks out of selling some of my Makitas. As it is now, I have 2 pairs of drill/impact drivers, the regular blue and the compact black ones. In a much lower volume/speed home shop, that's just not necessary. The compacts, the CXS, and my corded DeWalt hammer drill should do anything I would need, but I already have them, and I don't imagine the used value is worth the bother.
The wise move would probably be to sell the extra MFK700 and OF1010, but I don't know if I can part with them. The TS55 could be considered extra at this point too, since the TS60 works so well for me.
My main focus will probably be the shop itself for a while, then the kitchen, after that? My preference would be more toward small tables, cabinets, boxes, but the prevailing thing right now seems to be cutting boards.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

I have two "original" CSX and a new CSX-18. I much prefer this format for my own personal comfort. I do happen to also own the 15v T handle but it's been relegated to being the "house" drill/driver, replacing my original 12v T handle bought in the mid-2000s. I'm not sure what new evolution could be attractive to me, honestly, at least for how I use them.

 

[Brev]

I think the general line up of drills is great, although would love to see the TDC 18 introduced in the US for those of us who want a heavy duty cordless drill, but don't need the percussion setting. I always use my SDS for masonry drilling, and have never liked the high pitched screeching of non SDS hammer drills.

I'm interested in the TPC/TDC because of the collar to fit onto drilling rigs like the Famag. I am constantly making different jigs for drilling for hardware, or deep recesses that need to be perfectly square and can see huge benefits in having that compatibility.

View attachment 1

My only hope is to see the T18 updated somewhat to improve the ergonomics to fit in better with the rest of the T series drills that are now available. It does seem like the perfect middle ground between the TPC and TXS18 for general use drilling.

 

[Brev]

And yes, definitely hope they keep offering something like the T18. However, the “entry level”/ fixed chuck T18 could just go in my opinion.

I know these are still available through some dealers, but I think it's being discontinued?

 

[mino]

I think the general line up of drills is great, although would love to see the TDC 18 introduced in the US for those of us who want a heavy duty cordless drill, but don't need the percussion setting. I always use my SDS for masonry drilling, and have never liked the high pitched screeching of non SDS hammer drills.

I'm interested in the TPC/TDC because of the collar to fit onto drilling rigs like the Famag. I am constantly making different jigs for drilling for hardware, or deep recesses that need to be perfectly square and can see huge benefits in having that compatibility.
...

Agreed on the use case, same with the high speed being really useful.

That said, the TDC is "a TPC without the percussion switch". It makes sense for crew use - where you want to prevent "smart" folks using an expensive 4-speed drill as a hammer ..

As a "personal" drill, it is pretty much impossible to turn on the percussion by accident. So no real point in the TDC.

With the PDC/DRC generation the percussion was a separate module - so the DRC is lighter and shorter. It did not sell much so the TDC is just a TPC with the switch removed, using the same gearbox module.

 

[Coen]

[member=61254]mino[/member] I haven't used a NiCad battery in years, are they even available anymore?
[...]

Even 12 years ago people that came into the dealership with a set with two dead NiCd batteries left with a new drill with Lithium batteries.

I started with a TDK 14.4 with NiCD batteries but that thing is huge and weak. The trigger is very nice though.

 

[Brev]

Agreed on the use case, same with the high speed being really useful.

That said, the TDC is "a TPC without the percussion switch". It makes sense for crew use - where you want to prevent "smart" folks using an expensive 4-speed drill as a hammer ..

As a "personal" drill, it is pretty much impossible to turn on the percussion by accident. So no real point in the TDC.

With the PDC/DRC generation the percussion was a separate module - so the DRC is lighter and shorter. It did not sell much so the TDC is just a TPC with the switch removed, using the same gearbox module.

That's good to hear that it's basically the same machine now, and that its not any larger than the TDC. I would hate to lug around any extra weight or size for a feature I wouldn't use. I appreciate the insight!

I work alone primarily, so I wouldn't need to worry about any helpers misusing anything.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=61254]mino[/member] I haven't used a NiCad battery in years, are they even available anymore?
[...]

Even 12 years ago people that came into the dealership with a set with two dead NiCd batteries left with a new drill with Lithium batteries.

I started with a TDK 14.4 with NiCD batteries but that thing is huge and weak. The trigger is very nice though.

Back in the 90s I had a 7.2v Makita, it was both fantastic and horrible at the same time. It was fantastic in that it was cordless, which was a brand-new thing. Its horribleness wasn't immediately apparent. That revelation came later, when the newer offerings got so much better so rapidly. The big "stick up the handle" battery was replaced by the "pod" at the bottom, much more power, and keyless chuck. All of this made those early ones look pretty lame in comparison.
When I started at the cabinet shop, my first drill was Craftsman, still Nicad and 14.4v. Not long after, I bought a matching impact driver. That was a game changer, or so I thought, until Makita went Lithium Ion. That first pair/set was the real deal. I kept the Craftsman ones as auxiliaries, until the Makita white came oout.

 

[melroseg]

My go-to has been Makita, since the first availability of the LXT. IIRC, that was fall of '07? back when the only batteries were 3ah. The "white version", which came along later, was a lower cost homeowner oriented set, with 1.5ah batteries. Festool wasn't even on my radar at that point.
I also used the Bosch (pocket driver) back then, but I never liked the grip. They had the battery-up-the-grip style and I always thought it felt backward, but as they expanded the line, I stayed with them.

When I discovered the CXS, all bets were off. I sold all of the Bosch drills/drivers and actually paid for the CXS with it, since it could do all of the things and save space. I had also moved up to the special projects department, where having multiple drills set up at once was not as important.
Although I am generally opposed to "Swiss Army knife" type tools, because their auxiliary things get in the way, the CXS is not like that at all.

I have never gotten into the bigger Festool drills because I have been so satisfied otherwise. In fact, the CXS is the only Festool batteries I have.

When retiring, do consider the T18+3. It is such a quiet and pleasurable drill to use and an excellent complement for the CXS with the Centroteck quick-replace chucks as well as the angle and excentric chucks. It feels like a bigger CSX (original).

Then the TPC is an excellent heavy drill, but, frankly, it is an overkill for non-pro use and Makita makes cheaper and stronger "monster" drills.

As for the evolution, it is funny no one starts with the CDD and TDD NiCD lines ...

I still use my 2009 C12 NiCD/NiMH regularly alongside my new(ish) C18. Still using the same batteries that were supplied with the drill and (if I'm not in a hurry) the same charger. If I get 15 years out of my C18, I'll be a happy Scotsman!
Replacement batteries still show up in the My Festool app, though they're relatively expensive.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Back in the 90s I had a 7.2v Makita, it was both fantastic and horrible at the same time.

Those 7.2's were the bees knees when they came out, all the cool guys had them, practically indestructible too! Battery life was a pain though.

 

[Lincoln]

Currently running a TPC 18 and a C18 - very, very happy with them both. Also have a TID18, but usually reach for my Japanese HiKoki impact driver.
Will probably add a CXS18 or 12 soon.
I started in the mid 90's with the original 'C' drill/driver, which had the battery form the 'C' shape. No Centrotec, just a 10mm chuck. Was bought for me, along with a Sys1 organiser, when I completed my apprenticeship. It felt like, and was, a real step up in quality, compared to the stock standard makitas I'd been using. I was very 'protective' of that set for a long time!

 

[Brev]

Currently running a TPC 18 and a C18 - very, very happy with them both. Also have a TID18

Do the TPC and TID have the same grip / feel in the hand?

Like I mentioned above, what bothered me about the T18/TID combo was the grip felt totally different going back and forth to each other.

 

[FestitaMakool]

I’m in the same opinion as [member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member] here.
I’m familiar with the handle of the newer Makita’s. I know Makita did extensive development of how the grip felt for different people and their different hands - more so on the balance of the tool itself in parallel to the development of the grip as we see today.
I can safely say that when picking up any of the 12 or 18V the grip feels the same. The balance is also minimal in difference between similar tool whether it’s 12V or 18V. So far so good..

As I have exchanged the C18 - to CXS18 and CXS10,8 - to CXS12 I’m finding that I now use the Festool’s (With Centrotec chuck) on a regular basis compared to seldom before. This is due to better grips and better balance. The fact that the Festool’s are C-grip changes balance no matter how you see it compared to a T-handle. That said, with the Centrotec chuck I like both very much, and have now extensively used them together with the Makita T-handle 12V - often up to four drills each with: Festool: Bit holder and countersunk(smooooot [wink]) and Makita: Hex drill bit in hex chuck and regular drill bit in Jacobs chuck.
Switching between all these 4 drill was actually very smooth - trigger on Makita is just a bit more aggressive coming straight from the incredibly smooth Festools…  [wink]

I have also a TPC (latest) and this grip and balance is very good! (With my Makita motorics.. and Centrotec chuck)
The thing I don’t like is when I attach a Jacobs chuck on the Festool drills - it becomes too long and front heavy… other than that, the grip and trigger feel is great (for me)

 

[Brev]

I’m in the same opinion as [member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member] here.
I’m familiar with the handle of the newer Makita’s. I know Makita did extensive development of how the grip felt for different people and their different hands - more so on the balance of the tool itself in parallel to the development of the grip as we see today.
I can safely say that when picking up any of the 12 or 18V the grip feels the same. The balance is also minimal in difference between similar tool whether it’s 12V or 18V. So far so good..

I have to agree as well - Makita really has nailed their grip, and the consistency of it across the whole line. That point comes back to the original reason for my post, looking at the newer Festool models and the ergonomic changes to them. It would be great to see all of the Festool line adopt the same grip model to model, but perhaps this is coming soon!

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the T18 gets an update!

 

[squall_line]

When I was looking at impact drivers, the Makita felt much better in my hand than the Festool TID.  Not that the TID felt bad, per se, but there was just something about the size and shape of the Makita that allowed my hand a more natural and secure grip.  The T18 feels fine to me.