Festool Haters and CNC

[nickao]

Just to make it clear my CNC designs are not made of wood or mdf.

MDF, wood or even some plastics can be used for certain parts for the people that want to cut their own carriages, but my plans are all aluminum. Aluminum and steel is ALWAYS better, I am not getting into the science of it here, but on my site I will.

I will offer the parts someone can not fab or does not want to fab themselves in MDF and aluminum or they can be made in MDF or aluminum buy the builder themselves as well.

Any machines I sell whole, if I decide to do that, will not have any MDF. My home machines(the ones I already have built)will be cutting all the Aluminum parts for the machine kits. Meaning the machine kits I sell can also cut the aluminum parts for more kits. The cutting will be slow, but very doable, in that respect they can be self replicating with a trip to home depot or ordering off an online store for motors and such.

And I do have a machine that uses MDF carriage that does cut aluminum. So MDF is not the worst thing  as long as you use it only for certain parts of the CNC  machine, like the Y carriages. They do not suffer the stresses of some of the other parts of the machine in my experience, in my shop.

There will be NO Proprietary parts you must get from me at all! But I certainly will be selling parts if you want them ready made.   If you choose to use MDF all of the parts can be made in your shop using the Festool routers and saws for the entire machine build as well. I will have a very detailed tutorial on the machine build with extensive pics and an entire web site devoted to the building of the machines. I will show my Festools cutting all the parts for those that want to do it that way. Of course you could bring the plan to your friend to cut the parts on a CNC as well. I want to keep it simple so home woodworkers can use simple tools to make it if they want to. But again all aluminum is better for faster velocity and acceleration, deeper cuts, etc. Some don't need that though.

 

[stvrowe]

Yep - some people just can't be helped.  I have said adios to 2 forums in the last year for the same type nonsense.  It just wasn't worth the effort to provide useful information.

 

[joraft]

... Well guys that is why I am working on an 18" x 18" and 12" x 12" that will blow the doors off one of those little Shark cnc's for less than half the cost too.

As it happens, I just ordered the new CNC Shark HD at WIA and picked it up a few weeks ago. It's beefed up to handle a bigger router than the earlier models. I have a Bosch 1617 (2.25hp) mounted on it. The cutting area is 25" x 25".

The show price was $3799 with free shipping. I've been thinking about getting into CNC for a long time, and this seemed like the quick and easy way to get started. If things go well I can upgrade to a bigger/better machine down the road.

 

[joraft]

A video made by a Festool Kapex owner cutting through an aluminum extrusion. We have blades for non-ferrous metals like aluminum for the TS saws and one for steel for the TS 75.

2011-12-14_17-40-35_380.mp4

This video was made by a good friend of mine. He's using his Kapex to cut frame pieces for a large CNC router that he's building from the ground up. He's a cabinet maker who always does top notch work, so I have no reason to believe that his CNC machine will be any different. It is looking great so far.

He's a member here, so maybe I can talk him into posting some progression photos.

 

[peter halle]

Whereas this thread is evolving mainly towards CNC, and that is great, I am moving this thread out of this board to a more appropriate area.

Peter Halle - Moderator

 

[monte]

I would certainly be interested in a CNC section here at the FOG, and I would be interested in an eventual shop-made CNC set up.
(setting aside John-Joraft's evil influence as a close neighbor in that respect! [eek])

btw, any possibility of the software for this set up being Mac friendly?
Most of the CNC and laser set ups I've seen worked around (laser) have been strictly PC driven.
If not, my next question is would it work with a windows partition on my macbook-pro?

.

 

[ShawnRussell]

(setting aside John-Joraft's evil influence as a close neighbor in that respect! [eek])

.

Be careful with that John guy, he is pretty wiley!  :0

 

[aidansmith]

will definitely be interested in a cnc (build) forum. been planning for the last few years how to build an aluminium profile cnc, just last week was organising parts list for it. but it will still be pretty expensive and take a lot of time.. be warned guys  [eek]

 

[raiderone]

Count me in as well.  I almost went into buying a cnc machine, but since I have a dis-connect between my power tools and computers I thought not.  However, if there is someone to help out (ie. forum) I am ready to make the jump.  How to handle the design in software part is also important.  So, let's get started...

 

[nickao]

Whereas this thread is evolving mainly towards CNC, and that is great, I am moving this thread out of this board to a more appropriate area.

Peter Halle - Moderator

Can't you just break out my first post or two with the haters and then set the rest in a new thread without the Festool haters part title in it?  There is no need to bring up the Festool haters in the CNC thread.

 

[tallgrass]

i use cnc all of the time. i have several cnc machine and i love them.  As with most tolls they have their place. Just like Festool.

As for Mac. That is the wrong computer for the CNC world. I know how people like their macs but you are really pushing a square peg through a round hole.

 

[joraft]

Be careful with that John guy, he is pretty wiley!  :0

Hey, Shawn, how's my "Fairness in Tool Purchases" plan working out for ya?  [big grin]

 

[joraft]

...btw, any possibility of the software for this set up being Mac friendly?
Most of the CNC and laser set ups I've seen worked around (laser) have been strictly PC driven.
If not, my next question is would it work with a windows partition on my macbook-pro?

Roger, there are actually two software applications involved with running a CNC router.

The first is used to create or edit the design/code files. These files contain the instructions for what the router is supposed to do.

The second application is for loading the instruction files in to the CNC control box, monitoring the progress, and other direct control of the CNC machine. To avoid glitches during cutting operations this computer should have no anti-virus software running (and therefore not be connected to the Internet, except for quick upgrades), and all power management utilities and screen savers turned off. The ideal is a computer with nothing installed but the CNC related software.

While it is common to run both applications from a laptop, I came to the conclusion that it would be better to have a computer dedicated to the second job, and leave it always connected to the CNC machine.This doesn't take much computing horsepower, so it doesn't have to be an expensive model. My choice was a mini tower Dell which came with a keyboard, monitor, and Win 7 for under $400.

For designing and editing I will be using my more powerful desktop in the comfort of my office and transfering the files to the CNC by flash card. Many of  the more experienced CNCers have pointed out that that having editing software installed at the CNC machine can be very handy for tweaks to the code while testing and running jobs. Most of the CNC software licenses  allow running them on least two computers at once, so this isn't usually a problem.

Roger, in your case you might think about a dedicated PC for running the control software, and running the design/edit software in a WIN partition on your Mac. To see how well (or if) it runs, you could download a trial package.

 

[fritter63]

If not, my next question is would it work with a windows partition on my macbook-pro?

.

Roger, so long as you have intel based Mac (post 2006 IIRC), then you can run windows native on that machine. There are several options:

- "boot camp" approach - a separate partition and you "boot" into either windows or OS X, but not at the same time

- VM - Run a virtual machine instance of windows (or better yet a flavor of Linux like Ubuntu). This allows you run the windows OS and apps simultaneously on your mac. YOu can also configure more than one instance of any OS you're hosting. Ie, you can have two windows instances. This is
good for keeping a backup image of your system for when Windows eats itself and becomes unsalvagable.
   - VMWare is one popular choice.
   - Parallels is another and the one that I use at work. I have several windows instances and several Ubuntu Linux instances. WIth parallels you can run in "coherence" mode where the windows app look like they're running on you mac in OS X, so very transparent.

The key here is just to have lots of memory so you can allocate lots to the Windows instance.

There are others, and everybody has their own (passionate) views on which is best.

 

[joraft]

... There are others, and everybody has their own (passionate) views on which is best.

In this particular situation I think what's best depends on the decision of whether to have one computer doing everything, or a dedicated computer for controlling the CNC machine.

If you already have a Mac, and do not want to buy an additional computer, then it makes sense to try to run the CNC software on it. But if you're going to get a second dedicated computer anyway, why not just get a PC? They usually cost less, and the software is written to run on them natively. While in theory any Win application should be able to run flawlessly on the newer Macs, we all know that isn't always the case.

 

[Alan m]

iv used a few cnc s in collage and would love to build one or more [eek]. im not sure about having a section here on the whole subject but a smaller scale would be great. maybe a stand alone site for all the technical info.

i would love the hear your views on a homemade cnc

 

[tbellemare]

there are actually two software applications involved with running a CNC router.

I've always thought of it as 4 distinct things...

• design software
• tool path software
• post processor
• machine controller

If I read you correctly, John, I think you meant that only the machine controller really has any reason to be isolated. It's common in machine shops to have all of the machine controllers networked but on a node that is isolated from the Internet.

Tom

 

[joraft]

I've always thought of it as 4 distinct things...

• 1. design software
• 2. tool path software
• 3. post processor
• 4. machine controller

Tom, I'm new to all this and can only say with any confidence at all how things work on the Rockler CNC Shark.

On the software provided with the machine (Vectric) item numbers 1, 2, & 3 above are all handled within 1 application.

If I read you correctly, John, I think you meant that only the machine controller really has any reason to be isolated. It's common in machine shops to have all of the machine controllers networked but on a node that is isolated from the Internet.

Tom, I have a machine shop in my building that has a setup like you mention. They have 5 machines (Haas) all networked to 1 computer in the office. The designs are created on the computer and sent over the network to each machine's control box. Each control box is like a small computer in itself, with a keyboard and monitor, and the rest of the job can be handled from there.

There are many reasons these smaller machines can be built and sold for so much less, and one is that there is far less to the controllers. On the Shark, a computer is hooked to a small control box, and the machine is controlled using the processor, monitor and keyboard of that computer. Once a job is loaded and running, the computer can be disconnected and the job will continue, but once that connection is broken control cannot be re-established until that job is completed. Your only choices are to stop the machine with the emergency stop button or let the job run to the end. Of course that means it's best to leave the computer hooked to the machine during a job, and since they can often take hours to run, having only 1 computer can be very inconvenient. Power management and/or virus protection can also interrupt the connection between the computer and the control box. For that reason, it is recommended to have neither.

 

[marrt]

I'm definitely interested in a CNC build.  I've already purchased some plans but have too many other projects in queue first.  I also love the idea of a 2200 as the spindle.  Finally forces me to buy one. 
 

 

[tbellemare]

I completely agree with you, John. On the Shark(s), VCarve handles the design, tool path, and machine code. Generically, they are 3 pieces of software, though the post processor is usually integrated with the CAM program.

Speaking again generically, the CAM part of the solution defines the tooling and its setup and also defines the spindle speed(s) and motion. (On the Shark, spindle speed is done manually.) The output is usually G-Code but there are others especially when the CAM program was written for a certain machine manufacturer and really designed to be used right at the machine(s) to facilitate on-the-fly machining.

That G-Code or equivalent is then converted to machine code for the machine controller by the post processor.

On the Shark, it is as you say, 2 computers that are sort of joined at the hip if you want to have control of the process once you start a machining sequence. I just shut off the Wi-Fi radio and the anti-virus when I have the laptop connected to the controller.

I think having a 2200 as the spindle would be cool. It would require a much more robust carriage than a smaller router.

Tom