Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings

[surfjungle]

While nobody can compare with Festool for system integrations and many of their tools are second to none, Festool are missing some seriously basic offerings on their cordless platform. This is a serious consideration for adopting their battery platform because I have yet to meet somebody who enjoys having a ton of different battery platforms.

Its current cordless setup is less than lacklustre compared with all of the major competition. Looking at Milwaukee, DeWALT, Makita, Metabo and even Hilti and Fein, there are far more offerings with more sophisticated battery technology. Only Mafell have fewer offerings though with better CAS batteries.

I currently have a small number of Festool power tools which I am very happy with. Two of my cordless tools are the HKC 55 circular saw and oscillator which have proven excellent.

I understand that Festool focus more on certain areas, especially in woodwork but they really need to take a look at the overall value proposition for their cordless platform. I'm not expecting them to do what others have done and create a cordless tool for everything from inflation to electric kettles but missing some of the basics below, including those below, is just egregious.

Basic cordless offerings

• Lamps that actually use their power tool batteries
• Reciprocating saw
• Planer
• Circular saw with a bigger depth of cut
• More sophisticated battery technology along with higher capacity batteries

Moderate cordless offerings

• A drill / driver with a minimum of 130 nm of torque.
• Router
• Trimmer

Unfortunately, I will have to pick another power tool manufacture just to cover cordless basics. Again, I am very happy with what I have from Festool including cordless and I wouldn't have much of an issue picking a second to cover more esoteric or even moderate choices but not including some recip saws, planer, lamps or a bigger cordless circular saw? That's just bad value and certainly frustrates me and I would imagine, others. I would be interested to see who else feels the same and what others would consider basic cordless offerings. Thanks.

 

[Chris1970]

This has been an argument for years however, my shop is festooned with Dewalt, Milwaukee, Metabo HPT and even Ryobi. Where one leaves off another begins.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Everybody would love to see a bigger offering of Festool tools. But unfortunately Festool is a relatively small company and not comparable in size to giants like Milwaukee, DeWalt, Bosch and Makita. So it is hard for them to put out too many tools, and they have to make choices about their core offerings.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

No disrespect intended for the following - but we don't inhabit a perfect world. There's no rule which states that one manufacturer has to produce the perfect best of everything, nor that every tool a user buys has to be grey and green. Whilst the one-brand mentality is certainly still adopted by some - most experienced guys (pro and amateur alike) will settle into buying and using different-coloured tools which meet their individual needs and which, to them, represent best-in-class for any given category of tool.

Me? I'm heavily invested in the Hilti 22-volt platform (complete with a bunch of megabucks 8.0Ah batteries) - but if Festool/Mafell/Makita/whoever released a superlative piece of cordless hardware tomorrow which would improve my life, I'd buy it in a heartbeat - along with its batteries and charger. Plugging a second charger and battery into a wall outlet is just 10 seconds out of my life, and my sense of personal entitlement doesn't sit at a level whereby I get offended if manufacturers don't do exactly what I want. If yet another manufacturer's different-platform-game-changer came along the week after - I'd buy that, too. I don't complain about the fact that my van runs on diesel, my lawnmower runs on gasoline, my stove runs on wood, my blowtorch runs on MAPP, my welder runs on acetylene, my kettle runs on electricity, and my cooker runs on kerosene oil. I didn't fire out a rant on the Paslode website when I bought my IM65A gas nailer, just because it uses a proprietary 7.4-volt Li-Ion spark-ignition battery. It is what it is - so deal with it. I'm the guy who bought a set of Makita batteries and a charger just to run his Makita DAB site radio instead of using the wall-wart, for heaven's sake.

The whole world also doesn't need or want cordless everything. I'm perfectly happy with 240 volts and a cable most of the time, thanks. I'll often run tools like my mitre saw and plunge saw continuously for 7-8 hours a day, along with the dust extractor which they're hooked up to. And in my shop - I'm not expecting cordless replacements along any time soon for my 3-phase, 400-volt spindle moulder, planer/thicknesser, bandsaw or tenoner.

So chill out and stop using inflammatory and unnecessary words like 'egregious'. If Festool doesn't make everything your heart desires - then you're free to shop elsewhere. The real world will continue mixing & matching to get by.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I'm heavily invested in Makita cordless tools, and as I'm a home hobbyist, I wouldn't buy into any other cordless platform as corded for most tools doesn't impact me in any meaningful way.

However if I relied on tools doing work on customer or job sites, I wouldn't hesitate to buy into some of the Festool cordless for the convenience factor.

Horses for courses!

 

[surfjungle]

No disrespect intended for the following - but we don't inhabit a perfect world. There's no rule which states that one manufacturer has to produce the perfect best of everything, nor that every tool a user buys has to be grey and green. Whilst the one-brand mentality is certainly still adopted by some - most experienced guys (pro and amateur alike) will settle into buying and using different-coloured tools which meet their individual needs and which, to them, represent best-in-class for any given category of tool.

Me? I'm heavily invested in the Hilti 22-volt platform (complete with a bunch of megabucks 8.0Ah batteries) - but if Festool/Mafell/Makita/whoever released a superlative piece of cordless hardware tomorrow which would improve my life, I'd buy it in a heartbeat - along with its batteries and charger. Plugging a second charger and battery into a wall outlet is just 10 seconds out of my life, and my sense of personal entitlement doesn't sit at a level whereby I get offended if manufacturers don't do exactly what I want. If yet another manufacturer's different-platform-game-changer came along the week after - I'd buy that, too. I don't complain about the fact that my van runs on diesel, my lawnmower runs on gasoline, my stove runs on wood, my blowtorch runs on propane, my kettle runs on electricity, and my cooker runs on kerosene oil. It is what it is - so deal with it. I'm the guy who bought a set of Makita batteries and a charger just to run his Makita DAB site radio instead of using the wall-wart, for heaven's sake.

The whole world also doesn't need or want cordless everything. I'm perfectly happy with 240 volts and a cable most of the time, thanks. I'll often run tools like my mitre saw and plunge saw continuously for 7-8 hours a day, along with the dust extractor which they're hooked up to. And in my shop - I'm not expecting cordless replacements along any time soon for my 3-phase, 400-volt spindle moulder, planer/thicknesser, bandsaw or tenoner.

So chill out and stop using inflammatory and unnecessary words like 'egregious'. If Festool doesn't make everything your heart desires - then you're free to shop elsewhere. The real world will continue mixing & matching to get by.

I never said I wouldn't be willing to buy other brands. I acknowledged and accepted that. Re-read my original post. My point was that I drew the line with what I and many would consider basic offerings. I get to use the word egregious because that is how I feel when I see Festool's lineup despite being a happy customer with their HKC 55 and Oscillator and I still wouldn't change what I brought to date. And I bought into Festool's lineup with my eyes open. That doesn't have to mean I think they're smart about what they're doing in all areas of their product offerings. So, in summary, I take your points and agree with most of what you said. We just disagree on whether a company should have a basic line up or not. You're happy to take whatever any company offers, I on the other hand would like to see more value from their line up. Both opinions are valid.

Would you recommend Hilti? You sound like you may have invested in the Nuron platform and I'm curious about its performance, especially given Makita have come out with their 40V XGT lineup. One or the other will become my backup for plugging Festool's gaps.

 

[surfjungle]

I'm heavily invested in Makita cordless tools, and as I'm a home hobbyist, I wouldn't buy into any other cordless platform as corded for most tools doesn't impact me in any meaningful way.

However if I relied on tools doing work on customer or job sites, I wouldn't hesitate to buy into some of the Festool cordless for the convenience factor.

Horses for courses!

I agree. How do you find Makita? I reckon I'll have to use them to plug the gaps in the Festool lineup. Do you have old or more recent stuff or a mix? If a mix, do you find the quality consistent?

 

[luvmytoolz]

I'm heavily invested in Makita cordless tools, and as I'm a home hobbyist, I wouldn't buy into any other cordless platform as corded for most tools doesn't impact me in any meaningful way.

However if I relied on tools doing work on customer or job sites, I wouldn't hesitate to buy into some of the Festool cordless for the convenience factor.

Horses for courses!

I agree. How do you find Makita? I reckon I'll have to use them to plug the gaps in the Festool lineup. Do you have old or more recent stuff or a mix? If a mix, do you find the quality consistent?

I have quite a LOT of the 18V and a few of the 14.4V Makita's, and while they are really great grunt tools, the impact drivers being the most useful, I wouldn't consider anything from the Makita LXT range to be at all similar to any Festool offering, so as far as I'm concerned they are two entirely different platforms, with differing quality, performance and end results, and of course the user experience.

The collated screwgun is probably the most advanced or exotic Makita I own, but it's not as good as my Fein, and from reports not as good as the Festool either. The rest of the range are good basic work horse tools. They get the job done and they are relatively cheap. The cordless Makita saw in my opinion is about as junk as a cordless saw could possibly be.

My needs are basic, so if I need to trail a cord, I really don't mind, hence my comments that if my situation was that I routinely did paying work on site I would most definitely invest in some Festool cordless gear. The saws especially, and the drills are just superb so it would easily be justified buying into another battery platform for the usability and accuracy the Festool range affords.

 

[Mortiser]

“Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings”

“Festool's dubious marketing of their new cordless Drill / Driver TPC 18/4”

What's next?

 

[ChuckM]

Next? That one has been around for several years: smoking motors! [tongue]

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Snip.

Would you recommend Hilti? You sound like you may have invested in the Nuron platform and I'm curious about its performance

The Hilti platform is just fine - and I’m using B22, not Nuron - 2 x 5.2Ah and 4 x 8.0Ah which power 2 x combis, an impact driver, a framing nailer and a recip saw. The upside of Hilti is that its bombproof, brute-force grunt equipment which lasts virtually indefinitely and is supported by stellar service. The downside is that it’s initially eye-wateringly expensive. And no surprise = their cordless offering includes hardly anything aimed at precision woodworking. It’s pretty much a microcosm of this whole thread - different manufacturers playing to their own strengths and focusing on the core needs of their own customer base, rather than jumping blindly down the ‘me-too’ rabbit hole.

 

[surfjungle]

“Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings”

“Festool's dubious marketing of their new cordless Drill / Driver TPC 18/4”

What's next?

We'll, I'm super happy with my Festool HKC 55, oscillator, MFT and ETS EC 150/5 I bought thanks to the help in this forum some time ago. Just frustrated with the above two items and wanted to see what others thought. Am I allowed to be a little frustrated?

 

[surfjungle]

Snip.

Would you recommend Hilti? You sound like you may have invested in the Nuron platform and I'm curious about its performance

The Hilti platform is just fine - and I’m using B22, not Nuron - 2 x 5.2Ah and 4 x 8.0Ah which power 2 x combis, an impact driver, a framing nailer and a recip saw. The upside of Hilti is that it’s bombproof, brute-force grunt equipment which lasts virtually indefinitely and is supported by stellar service. The downside is that it’s initially eye-wateringly expensive. And no surprise = their cordless offering includes hardly anything aimed at precision woodworking. It’s pretty much a microcosm of this whole thread - different manufacturers playing to their own strengths and focusing on the core needs of their own customer base, rather than jumping blindly down the ‘me-too’ rabbit hole.

Thanks - it's good to hear from somebody who actually uses Hilti including their older platform and I agree that they're all about concrete processing first and other things second. That said, they do have recip saws, bigger circular saws and even a jigsaw. The bombproof / service part is something I care about. I don't like the idea of disposable tools. If I invest in something good, I want to hold on to it for as long as possible, not chase the next shiny-shiny. Thanks for your commentary and for bearing with me, I appreciate it!

 

[Mini Me]

If looking at the cordless range from a hobby POV not many hobbyists would need more than cordless drills/drivers and electric saws. A professional tradesman would certainly find the range restricted and would want a range that uses the same battery and charger system since most cordless tools these days are sold as skins.

 

[surfjungle]

If looking at the cordless range from a hobby POV not many hobbyists would need more than cordless drills/drivers and electric saws. A professional tradesman would certainly find the range restricted and would want a range that uses the same battery and charger system since most cordless tools these days are sold as skins.

I agree that professional homeowners may not need a broad and deep selection. And I strongly agree with your observations pros not wanting a ton of batteries.

Metabo tried to consolidate the battery platforms across various power tool companies with their CAS battery system. While Mafell support CAS along with other niche companies, Fein do not which is a pity as there would have been woodwork, metalwork and all round with Metabo. Fein opted for Bosch's AMP Share which left me scratching my head a bit. Good batteries are expensive, especially the monster ones and I don't like the idea of having many different platforms as it seems like a terrible waste of money and resources given the batteries are then under utilised.

 

[Cheese]

I'm down to 3 battery platforms and couldn't be happier. Festool 10V, Festool 18V & Milwaukee M18. The Paslode 7V system doesn't really count because they will both be replaced with Milwaukee guns at some point.

Minimizing battery platforms was exactly the reason I refused to purchase the Mafell MT55 18M even though I already owned the MT55 cc. Instead I went with the TSC 55 K to keep the battery platforms to a minimum.

 

[semenza]

Basic cordless offerings

• Lamps that actually use their power tool batteries
• Reciprocating saw
• Planer
• Circular saw with a bigger depth of cut
• More sophisticated battery technology along with higher capacity batteries

Moderate cordless offerings

• A drill / driver with a minimum of 130 nm of torque.
• Router
• Trimmer

    Granted there is only one light available, but the KAL II ( 500723 ) does use the power tool batteries. There use to be another hand held that could be used more like a flashlight.

    HKC 85 is NAINA but that is a circular saw with a deeper cut.

    I could be wrong but the battery and charger tech seems pretty sophisticated to me. And there is a new higher capacity battery on the way.

    I don't think a recip saw is likely. It gets outside the Festool scope a bit, and Festool would want it to do something special in order to make it desirable over the competition.

    Planer, probably just not a big enough market to produce one that would need to compete. 

    Drill driver torque. I guess, but I have a bunch of Festool drills and drivers and have yet to find them lacking under actual use conditions. I don't have the TPC though. I do have the PDC and have run some large bits and hole saws.

    Is "Trimmer" a trim router, I could definitely see that happening. And probably with some special base or something.

    Router , maybe, see above.

  Yes, you're allowed to be frustrated. Festool is a pretty slow moving company. I have waited a long time for the cordless CT-SYS. So I guess it is a mix of frustration and patient waiting.

   
Seth
   

 

[surfjungle]

Basic cordless offerings

• Lamps that actually use their power tool batteries
• Reciprocating saw
• Planer
• Circular saw with a bigger depth of cut
• More sophisticated battery technology along with higher capacity batteries

Moderate cordless offerings

• A drill / driver with a minimum of 130 nm of torque.
• Router
• Trimmer

    Granted there is only one light available, but the KAL II ( 500723 ) does use the power tool batteries. There use to be another hand held that could be used more like a flashlight.

    HKC 85 is NAINA but that is a circular saw with a deeper cut.

    I could be wrong but the battery and charger tech seems pretty sophisticated to me. And there is a new higher capacity battery on the way.

    I don't think a recip saw is likely. It gets outside the Festool scope a bit, and Festool would want it to do something special in order to make it desirable over the competition.

    Planer, probably just not a big enough market to produce one that would need to compete. Especially considering that the corded models (which are great) were discontinued.

    Drill driver torque. I guess, but I have a bunch of Festool drills and drivers and have yet to find them lacking under actual use conditions. I don't have the TPC though. I do have the PDC and have run some large bits and hole saws.

    Is "Trimmer" a trim router, I could definitely see that happening. And probably with some special base or something.

    Router , maybe, see above.

  Yes, you're allowed to be frustrated. Festool is a pretty slow moving company. I have waited a long time for the cordless CT-SYS. So I guess it is a mix of frustration and patient waiting.

   
Seth
 

Thank you kindly Seth. That's really useful information. I did not realise that there was a Festool lamp that took a powertool battery (500723). The fact that it can also be plugged in is very useful. I'll be taking a serious look at this, this year.

I'd be happy to by the TPC at face value as a mid-level drill but not for anything heavy-duty.

Are the corded planers being discontinued? I'm living in Europe and they can still be bought. I had my eye on the HL 850 (576253) which is so old the branding on the blades is still Festo. See sautershop.de which is where I've bought some of my tools.

Yes, trimmer was trim router. It's far easier cordless ask that a cordless router because it requires much less power.

Thanks for allowing me to be frustrated [tongue] While I don't have it, the CT-SYS looks great as does the massive portable power supply and the most recent miniature bench saw. I love seeing the innovation. While they might not be fast, at least they endure and are well supported by their warranty which is more that I can say for some brands.

 

[mino]

...
    Planer, probably just not a big enough market to produce one that would need to compete. Especially considering that the corded models (which are great) were discontinued.
...

Agree on most. Though the planers were not discontinued. Both the 65 and 85 are on the 2023 European catalogs. Not sure how in US.

But i agree on the point - there is a reason the HL85, elbeit being THE planer to get - is going 30+ yers now without chnage. It is simply not selling enough to justify new R&D. It is expensive and just too much for a hobby user while the pros usually have a jointer to go along in the shop so do not -require- it either all that much.

As for asking FT for a "complete range of cordless" - it is absurd. Festool's business model is specifically NOT to be a one-stop shop. They just do not make me-too junk tools only to "have the tool range" like all the giants do. Part of this is that FT makes their own tools. They do not ODM it to the Chinese. Nor the Taiwanese.

Asking for such is misunderstanding the FT business model. The same way one cannot buy a Mercedes S class as a station wagon one cannot by a recip by Festool. Just the way it is.

 

[semenza]

OK, for some reason I thought the HL850 was discontinued .................  it is not. Which is good because it is an awesome planer!

Looks like the bench mount is discontinued though. At least in the USA.

Seth