Festool quality curve

[Ostap]

In a light of some bitter feelings from http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/of-1010-play/ ...

I think in around 2011 Festool shined in innovation and quality. Its premium price did not discourage users, even the lack of full support for imperial units was not an issue for fans in US.

I can't stop feeling that since then Festool has somewhat stalled and focused more on optimizing tool production cost rather than quality or innovation. Let's take brand new CXS 2.6 drill as an example. The battery is great, no doubt. But. There is absolutely no need for the large hollow front strut any more, it could have been redesigned to be smaller, lighter, more elegant. There is no more need for the large charger, it could have been much smaller. And it is still the only (AFAIK) Festool drill without brushless motor. From whichever angle I look --  cost first.

This year I have taken 3 new Festool tools into use: TS55R, RO125 and OF1010.
TS arrived dirty and oily. When run, it smelled bad. After lot of cleaning I got rid of dirt and smell. The blade was also misaligned, but luckily it was possible to re-align it and it works fine now.
RO was perfect out of box, have had zero problem with it.
OF had collet jammed into the shaft at first, it took me like 10 minutes to get it loose (I was very careful not to damage it, next time I could do it probably faster). And the play in rods you can see in the linked thread.
So full satisfaction level: 33%

I very much hope I just have had bad luck, Festool will not fall off the chair and will be premium brand in the future. We already have ton of crap-brands.
What is your recent experience and thoughts about the brand?

 

[richy3333]

All my Fessy stuff has worked fine for me. I had an issue with one tool (of my own making) and Festool sorted it out brilliantly. No complaints from me.

 

[TOOLTOWN]

Let's take brand new CXS 2.6 drill as an example. The battery is great, no doubt. But. There is absolutely no need for the large hollow front strut any more, it could have been redesigned to be smaller, lighter, more elegant. There is no more need for the large charger, it could have been much smaller. And it is still the only (AFAIK) Festool drill without brushless motor. From whichever angle I look --  cost first.

I believe the larger hollow area is left in the front so users can continue to use their older style batteries, same for the charger (otherwise they would be useless for interchangeability). 

The use of a brushed motor is to keep the pricepoint down, yes, but for good reason.  The csx is $255, the next drill up is $150 more.  That isn't due to more plastic and metal... It is due to the electronics and motor needed for brush-less technology.  The CSX is, in my opinion, a bargain for a Festool product.  Plus on that small of a drill there isn't much weight to save or power to gain over brushed technology.

*****These are my opinions, not an official statement being passed from Festool through me.*****

Ken 

 

[sae]

Ostap, what you mention is actually really common in product lifecycles across many industries. First year release is putting out fires and making functional changes due to failures, second year is applying all the changes to a unified product, and third year and beyond is cutting cost.

Not sure what's actually new at Festool in the last few years due to the delay in stuff we get, but I agree, there has been a dearth of innovation in recent memory. The HKC seems very close to what Mafell has already done, hopefully there's something new and exciting in the pipeline for all of us to get excited about.

 

[jacko9]

Let's take brand new CXS 2.6 drill as an example. The battery is great, no doubt. But. There is absolutely no need for the large hollow front strut any more, it could have been redesigned to be smaller, lighter, more elegant. There is no more need for the large charger, it could have been much smaller. And it is still the only (AFAIK) Festool drill without brushless motor. From whichever angle I look --  cost first.

I believe the larger hollow area is left in the front so users can continue to use their older style batteries, same for the charger (otherwise they would be useless for interchangeability). 

The use of a brushed motor is to keep the pricepoint down, yes, but for good reason.  The csx is $255, the next drill up is $150 more.  That isn't due to more plastic and metal... It is due to the electronics and motor needed for brush-less technology.  The CSX is, in my opinion, a bargain for a Festool product.  Plus on that small of a drill there isn't much weight to save or power to gain over brushed technology.

*****These are my opinions, not an official statement being passed from Festool through me.*****

Ken

I agree and in my opinion the CSX is the perfect drill for my small shop making furniture.  I have the T-18 for larger drilling and driving large screws but the CSX works for 90% of my daily activities.

Jack

 

[GhostFist]

I will say the conturo seems the only unique innovation of recent. At a price point for professional shops though, thus the lack of attention.

 

[aptpupil]

Been happy with my stuff but I do see a lot of complaining which is unsettling. Ts recall and lots kapex issues from what I've seen.
Planex needs lights!

 

[fshanno]

I will say the conturo seems the only unique innovation of recent. At a price point for professional shops though, thus the lack of attention.

The Conturo may be the best and definitely is the prettiest portable glue pot edgebander, but it's not the first.  Virutex and several others are already out there in the US market and have been for a while. 

 

[sae]

Been happy with my stuff but I do see a lot of complaining which is unsettling. Ts recall and lots kapex issues from what I've seen.
Planex needs lights!

Have you tried:

+

 

[Ostap]

I believe the larger hollow area is left in the front so users can continue to use their older style batteries, same for the charger (otherwise they would be useless for interchangeability).

While I agree your statement, I can't see why would anyone buy new CXS 2.6 to use old batteries. Drill bodies are basically the same, I doubt one would buy a new drill to just get the battery level indicator.
The use case of old worn out old drill is also not likely, as either the drill is yet under warranty or if smth dies, it is the battery.

The use of a brushed motor is to keep the pricepoint down, yes, but for good reason.  The csx is $255, the next drill up is $150 more.  That isn't due to more plastic and metal... It is due to the electronics and motor needed for brush-less technology.  The CSX is, in my opinion, a bargain for a Festool product.  Plus on that small of a drill there isn't much weight to save or power to gain over brushed technology.

Here I can't agree with you at all.
Saying that CXS is a bargain for Festool product is saying that Cygnet is a bargain for an Aston Martin product.
if price is what I am after, I can buy 2 decent quality mid-range brand drills for the price of one CXS.
I don't buy Festool because of its bargain price, I buy Festool, because I expect it to be innovative, fully though through and have excellent quality. So that every time I take it into use, it brings smile to my face.

I didn't own CXS 1.3, but I liked it alot. I liked its ergonomics and the idea how front "strut" was used to get extra room for battery. New CXS 2.6 is a better set in any measurable detail, but I don't like it half as much. Sounds stupid, right? But for me it lacks the feeling of optimized product.

Anyway, I'm not here to create a flame war.
I'm just saying it would be sad to loose another quality company to the drain of cost-optimization.

BTW, Festool, don't you think premium routers should have a workpiece lighting built in nowdays?

 

[GhostFist]

I will say the conturo seems the only unique innovation of recent. At a price point for professional shops though, thus the lack of attention.

The Conturo may be the best and definitely is the prettiest portable glue pot edgebander, but it's not the first.  Virutex and several others are already out there in the US market and have been for a while.

well I can't say if it's the best but I'm a ware that it's not the first. I just feel that has some unique qualities to it that make it stand out. Mind you, in my line of work we practically never use these types of machines so my opinion isn't from experience, just observation

 

[Brice Burrell]

.......Anyway, I'm not here to create a flame war.
I'm just saying it would be sad to loose another quality company to the drain of cost-optimization......

As we all know it's a whole new ballgame since the downturn in the economy in 2008.  Everything is cut so fine now virtually all products all lesser quality now than years past.  I'm sure Festool is no different, they are cost-optimizing just like everyone else.  I'm not saying their products aren't still good, it's just that they need to tread carefully with cost-optimization (of tools and service) and still raising prices every year. 

 

[toolfest.co.uk]

As a specialist dealer of Festool and many other products we are only happy to sell quality. Festool has always supplied us with that. Yes, they have dropped the ball sometimes, the PS 400 specifically, but generally we have enthusiasm for all things Festool and Tanos, innovation and quality products that inspire customers and us alike.

I don't worry about new products, I'm sure they will come and they I'm fairly sure they will be great and customers will want them. Maybe they won't be game-changers every time the way the TS 55, the EHL 65 and Rotex 150 to name a few will be but there will be gems.

I believe there are and will be growing pains though, and levels of service and finished product may slip on the odd occasion. As long as problems are listened to and efforts are made to rectify them in good time I don't see a problem either.

One interesting thing we've noticed is that not all product is made in Germany and the Czech Republic. This doesn't bother me either, as long as the people employed to make the product are happy with their conditions of employment and the product is of the same standard, which no doubt it should be.

We were surpised to see the origin of manufacture on these two products though, one country of origin more than the other, can you guess which?

Have a great evening.

Warren

 

[Brice Burrell]

Warren, that made in China is bit of a surprise to me and I think many other Festool users will be too.  I for one don't like the idea of manufacturing in China on premium products.  Part of why I'm willing to pay a premium price for Festool products is that they were (and still are) paying people a decent wage in a country whose economy I'm willing to support.  In fairness to Festool, and assuming I'm not mistaken from your photo (the CT Sys is made in China), it does seem to have a fairly reasonable price by Festool standards.  All the same, if Festool moves manufacturing to China it will affect my future support of the company.

Edited to add: The CT-Sys is made in Germany.     

 

[woodwrights_corner]

Brice, when I first looked at Warren's photo I thought the product was the CT-Sys.  On closer examination I discovered that  #500642 is a long-life bag for the CT-Sys.  Maybe just the bags are manufactured in China.  Do you have other information?

 

[jacko9]

I have to concur after operating my shop for many decades, I'm not about to pay quality prices for product made in China.  As soon as I see that label on Festool products that I'm interested in buying, I will be looking elsewhere.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Wow, made in China? Ok, this seriously rocks my faith in Festool.

I can buy into the high price scheme because we know we pay for European quality. Czech republic? I could live with that, because it's basically Germany's backyard. But China? Uhm, no. That's not just one but several bridges too far.

I don't think the CTL-Sys is cheap for Festool standards. The standard Festool price is 363 euro here. I can buy a china made vac for 20 euro if I want.

 

[Locks14]

Wow, made in China? Ok, this seriously rocks my faith in Festool.

I can buy into the high price scheme because we know we pay for European quality. Czech republic? I could live with that, because it's basically Germany's backyard. But China? Uhm, no. That's not just one but several bridges too far.

I don't think the CTL-Sys is cheap for Festool standards. The standard Festool price is 363 euro here. I can buy a china made vac for 20 euro if I want.

The negative opinion of "Made in China" is outdated and uninformed.  Of course China has a reputation for cheap mass produced crap, because that's often the brief they are given by their customers who are buying the cheap crap off them.

However, China are these days equally able to make quality products as any other country in the world. They have state of the art manufacturing facilities being opened at a rate of knots and can build products to any level of quality or tolerances that their customer instructs them to do often at a far more cost effective price per product than if the product wasn't outsourced.

So you need to realise that this might actually be a good thing as if manufacturing was stubbornly kept in Europe one of two things would likely happen EVEN HIGHER prices to maintain standards or LOWER QUALITY to keep prices down.  Now I'm sure nobody wants either of those scenarios.

Plus, where is the Kapex made? - With all its problems with the table not properly machined flat or level? 

Country of origin means very little. It's the design, specs, tolerances and budget to produce the unit that matter, not geographical location.

 

[sae]

Brice, when I first looked at Warren's photo I thought the product was the CT-Sys.  On closer examination I discovered that  #500642 is a long-life bag for the CT-Sys.  Maybe just the bags are manufactured in China.  Do you have other information?

It is the longlife bag. My CT26 longlife bag was made in China as well, quality seems good enough, no leaks that I could see in the tub.

I would've liked the price to be more reasonable (Bosch's 26L reusable bags are $70 vs $210 for the CT26), but it looks like they made this one reasonable.

 

[jacko9]

Wow, made in China? Ok, this seriously rocks my faith in Festool.

I can buy into the high price scheme because we know we pay for European quality. Czech republic? I could live with that, because it's basically Germany's backyard. But China? Uhm, no. That's not just one but several bridges too far.

I don't think the CTL-Sys is cheap for Festool standards. The standard Festool price is 363 euro here. I can buy a china made vac for 20 euro if I want.

The negative opinion of "Made in China" is outdated and uninformed.  Of course China has a reputation for cheap mass produced crap, because that's often the brief they are given by their customers who are buying the cheap crap off them.

However, China are these days equally able to make quality products as any other country in the world. They have state of the art manufacturing facilities being opened at a rate of knots and can build products to any level of quality or tolerances that their customer instructs them to do often at a far more cost effective price per product than if the product wasn't outsourced.
So you need to realise that this might actually be a good thing as if manufacturing was stubbornly kept in Europe one of two things would likely happen EVEN HIGHER prices to maintain standards or LOWER QUALITY to keep prices down.  Now I'm sure nobody wants either of those scenarios.

Plus, where is the Kapex made? - With all its problems with the table not properly machined flat or level? 

Country of origin means very little. It's the design, specs, tolerances and budget to produce the unit that matter, not geographical location.

While you maintain that there are two options

"So you need to realise that this might actually be a good thing as if manufacturing was stubbornly kept in Europe one of two things would likely happen EVEN HIGHER prices to maintain standards or LOWER QUALITY to keep prices down.  Now I'm sure nobody wants either of those scenarios."

I say that there are other options and that is fair currency negotiations, fair wages and profit sharing, fair and equitable trade and a whole host of others.  If manufacturing were kept in Europe or North America the middle class would be able to afford the products produced there.  Henry Ford knew if he didn't pay a decent wage that the workers wouldn't be able to afford the cars.

The shifting of wealth to the worlds top 1% is a poor argument as to why we should not buy from China.  Supporting workers not subjected to slaves wages enforced by a communist government is another reason.

Back off my soap box now!

Jack