Festool quality curve

[toolfest.co.uk]

I was actually surprised something was made in the United Kingdom. ;-)

 

[sae]

I was actually surprised something was made in the United Kingdom. ;-)

You and me both. I thought you guys just pushed some paper around and called it a day.  [big grin]

 

[Locks14]

Wow, made in China? Ok, this seriously rocks my faith in Festool.

I can buy into the high price scheme because we know we pay for European quality. Czech republic? I could live with that, because it's basically Germany's backyard. But China? Uhm, no. That's not just one but several bridges too far.

I don't think the CTL-Sys is cheap for Festool standards. The standard Festool price is 363 euro here. I can buy a china made vac for 20 euro if I want.

The negative opinion of "Made in China" is outdated and uninformed.  Of course China has a reputation for cheap mass produced crap, because that's often the brief they are given by their customers who are buying the cheap crap off them.

However, China are these days equally able to make quality products as any other country in the world. They have state of the art manufacturing facilities being opened at a rate of knots and can build products to any level of quality or tolerances that their customer instructs them to do often at a far more cost effective price per product than if the product wasn't outsourced.
So you need to realise that this might actually be a good thing as if manufacturing was stubbornly kept in Europe one of two things would likely happen EVEN HIGHER prices to maintain standards or LOWER QUALITY to keep prices down.  Now I'm sure nobody wants either of those scenarios.

Plus, where is the Kapex made? - With all its problems with the table not properly machined flat or level? 

Country of origin means very little. It's the design, specs, tolerances and budget to produce the unit that matter, not geographical location.

While you maintain that there are two options

"So you need to realise that this might actually be a good thing as if manufacturing was stubbornly kept in Europe one of two things would likely happen EVEN HIGHER prices to maintain standards or LOWER QUALITY to keep prices down.  Now I'm sure nobody wants either of those scenarios."

I say that there are other options and that is fair currency negotiations, fair wages and profit sharing, fair and equitable trade and a whole host of others.  If manufacturing were kept in Europe or North America the middle class would be able to afford the products produced there.  Henry Ford knew if he didn't pay a decent wage that the workers wouldn't be able to afford the cars.

The shifting of wealth to the worlds top 1% is a poor argument as to why we should not buy from China.  Supporting workers not subjected to slaves wages enforced by a communist government is another reason.

Back off my soap box now!

Jack

Fair points for philosophical debate.  But my remarks were aimed at commenting on the tone of Alex's post, that I took and think was intended to comment on the tangible issues of product quality, not the political or socioeconomic factors.

 

[toolfest.co.uk]

I was actually surprised something was made in the United Kingdom. ;-)

You and me both. I thought you guys just pushed some paper around and called it a day.  [big grin]

Actually we mostly have people to push the paper around for us and everything stops for tea and cake at 4pm don't you know.

 

[Davej]

A large amount of parts are made in China for Apple ( the most successful company ever ) and they market themselves/ are perceived,  as a premium company who charge top money for their products .
Yes China has huge problems but if you look deep enough probably most things we own no matter how cheap or expensive will have some component or other  made in China inside them. To stop buying anything with Chinese components inside would probably bring the World to a halt. Maybe I'm exaggerating but not by much .
Dave

 

[mike_aa]

I was actually surprised something was made in the United Kingdom. ;-)

You and me both. I thought you guys just pushed some paper around and called it a day.  [big grin]

Actually we mostly have people to push the paper around for us and everything stops for tea and cake at 4pm don't you know.

When is it time to go pub crawling? [big grin]

 

[Phil Beckley]

Warren, that made in China is bit of a surprise to me and I think many other Festool users will be too.  I for one don't like the idea of manufacturing in China on premium products.  Part of why I'm willing to pay a premium price for Festool products is that they were (and still are) paying people a decent wage in a country whose economy I'm willing to support.  In fairness to Festool, and assuming I'm not mistaken from your photo (the CT Sys is made in China), it does seem to have a fairly reasonable price by Festool standards. All the same, if Festool moves more manufacturing to China it will affect my future support of the company.   

Hi
  The CYL SYS is made in Germany....i was in the production plant last week.
rg
Phil

 

[Phil Beckley]

I have to concur after operating my shop for many decades, I'm not about to pay quality prices for product made in China.  As soon as I see that label on Festool products that I'm interested in buying, I will be looking elsewhere.

You have no need to worry any time soon.
rg
Phil

 

[gkaiseril]

The item made in China is not the tool but a supply item. Longlife-FIS-CT SYS  Order number: 500642.

I would be more concerned if it were a precision tool and not a disposable supply item.

 

[toolfest.co.uk]

I was actually surprised something was made in the United Kingdom. ;-)

You and me both. I thought you guys just pushed some paper around and called it a day.  [big grin]

Actually we mostly have people to push the paper around for us and everything stops for tea and cake at 4pm don't you know.

When is it time to go pub crawling? [big grin]

About 20 years ago, when I was a lot younger!

Actually, my friends and I do a tour of local pubs twice a year, starting at 10 in the morning with a pint and a fry-up. As we get older we get to fewer pubs during the day each year. Takes me a week to recover. Still fun though.

[big grin]

 

[Phil Beckley]

I was actually surprised something was made in the United Kingdom. ;-)

You and me both. I thought you guys just pushed some paper around and called it a day.  [big grin]

Actually we mostly have people to push the paper around for us and everything stops for tea and cake at 4pm don't you know.

When is it time to go pub crawling? [big grin]

About 20 years ago, when I was a lot younger!

Actually, my friends and I do a tour of local pubs twice a year, starting at 10 in the morning with a pint and a fry-up. As we get older we get to fewer pubs during the day each year. Takes me a week to recover. Still fun though.

[big grin]

Any invitation would be gladly accepted [blink]
Phil

 

[sancho57]

Count me in to. I'm always up for a good pub crawl

 

[bkharman]

If you want to watch an awesome docu-movie about China and things made in China... you should check out this film.

http://www.xmaswithoutchina.com/

it is amazing the extents this family went through to avoid having Christmas with anything made in China.

Cheers.  Bryan.

 

[WastedP]

I think quality work can be done in any spot on the planet.  It just happens that China is good at providing low-tech manufacturing at a low price, which is evidently what consumers demand.

The intro to "Manufactured Landscapes" blew my mind.

 

[peter halle]

As this forum continues to grow just as Festool usage all over the world, it is logical that there will be an increased number of posts here and all over the web about a tool not working properly.

There will be come manufacturing defects.  As more tools are made there will more defects based on percentages.  That should be a given.  No one is perfect.

Additionally, when we read about a tool issue there may be a learning curve in the user / tool interface.  All of us are here to help just like we have been helped n- that is what I love about this forum as suspect others do as wel.

Peter

 

[GhostFist]

Wow, made in China? Ok, this seriously rocks my faith in Festool.

I can buy into the high price scheme because we know we pay for European quality. Czech republic? I could live with that, because it's basically Germany's backyard. But China? Uhm, no. That's not just one but several bridges too far.

I don't think the CTL-Sys is cheap for Festool standards. The standard Festool price is 363 euro here. I can buy a china made vac for 20 euro if I want.

The negative opinion of "Made in China" is outdated and uninformed.  Of course China has a reputation for cheap mass produced crap, because that's often the brief they are given by their customers who are buying the cheap crap off them.

However, China are these days equally able to make quality products as any other country in the world. They have state of the art manufacturing facilities being opened at a rate of knots and can build products to any level of quality or tolerances that their customer instructs them to do often at a far more cost effective price per product than if the product wasn't outsourced.
So you need to realise that this might actually be a good thing as if manufacturing was stubbornly kept in Europe one of two things would likely happen EVEN HIGHER prices to maintain standards or LOWER QUALITY to keep prices down.  Now I'm sure nobody wants either of those scenarios.

Plus, where is the Kapex made? - With all its problems with the table not properly machined flat or level? 

Country of origin means very little. It's the design, specs, tolerances and budget to produce the unit that matter, not geographical location.

While you maintain that there are two options

"So you need to realise that this might actually be a good thing as if manufacturing was stubbornly kept in Europe one of two things would likely happen EVEN HIGHER prices to maintain standards or LOWER QUALITY to keep prices down.  Now I'm sure nobody wants either of those scenarios."

I say that there are other options and that is fair currency negotiations, fair wages and profit sharing, fair and equitable trade and a whole host of others.  If manufacturing were kept in Europe or North America the middle class would be able to afford the products produced there.  Henry Ford knew if he didn't pay a decent wage that the workers wouldn't be able to afford the cars.

The shifting of wealth to the worlds top 1% is a poor argument as to why we should not buy from China.  Supporting workers not subjected to slaves wages enforced by a communist government is another reason.

Back off my soap box now!

Jack

Jacko hits the nail on the head here.

 

[Cheese]

[member=8318]jacko9[/member] also gets my vote.
I don't like their politics, I don't like their policies and I certainly don't like their human rights record. I vote with my wallet and consequently, they don't get any votes from me.

A few years ago I decided to repurpose a small Atlas metal lathe manufactured in Michigan over 50 years ago. I thought it was only proper to bring this lathe back into service by using only USA made parts. It took me some time and some extra $$$, but in the end every part, save 1 item, is American made. The motor, bench/table, isolation mounts, levelers, v-belts, live center, lubrication, lathe tooling, lubrication oil cans and even the wiring (Carroll Cable) for the forward/reverse switch is US produced. I know my quest may sound foolish to many people, but that single piece of American iron, produced during the heyday of US manufacturing, needed to remain in service alongside its US made friends. Every time I walk by the Atlas, I smile.

The single item I was unable to find a US manufactured source for? The Square D reversing switch, however, I did manage to locate an older NOS item that was made in Mexico, as even the latest production, is now made in China!

 

[jacko9]

Aside from the Social Economic point I made above, there is the real quality aspect to consider.  Manufacturing is not a simple process and good producers don't appear overnight.  It took the USA a few World Wars and a lot on Infrastructure building to develop the network of Tool and Die makers, Steel and Speciality Metal Producers, and Trainer Manufacturing Workers.  Now today some (mostly bankers) would have you believe that they can build  "State of the Art" manufacturing facility and plug any "worker" into it and produce top quality products.

I refuse to accept this argument and point to the manufacturing excellence in Germany where the banks don't rule national policy and engineers and skilled workers work hand in hand to produce the finest products on the planet.  I have yet to see a comparable product like the Mercedes being developed and built in the slave wage countries.

Sorry if this sounds like more soap box stuff but, I live for top quality products and I cringe every time my lower cost stuff fails to live up to the advertised design.

Jack 

 

[DB10]

You are right in saying that There is nothing wrong with made in China stamped on your tool.
I just bought some Metabo, another great German manufacture who offers 3 year warranty even on there batteries.
This is all made in China, batteries assembled in Hungary and the quality of this tool is as good as Festool, their customer service was also great and the price for this new tool was a lot less than Festool!
But my Meatabo now comes with "Stigma attached" and for some that made in China sticker just won't do, for others they will look at the quality and price point and just ignore it, like they say, You pay your money and make your choice.

 

[sancho57]

First if ya don't  like Festool don't buy it. No one is twisting anyone's arm to buy their tools or anyone's else for that matter.

Had a discussion with Green Fever yesterday ( another fogger) . We were discussing this thread.
We both agreed that Festool though not perfect is pretty good. People compare Festool with Mafel, but look at the price difference, plus if there is a issue, the customer service with Festool is the best I've seen, in 2 countries.

Try getting the same service from Panasonic or Fien, Dewalt Mikita. You want cheap go buy harbour freight , they got a rear return policy, but you'lol be bringing the tool back every other day . If that's what ya want.

Me I'm sticking with Festool until they prove otherwise.