Festool TS 55 F Fan Edition

[team_kap]

In the HKC55 manual it clearly states that you can put a 2.2mm blade "with restricted function of guide wedge", however with newer thin kerf blades coming out for the TS55 does it not make sense to update the older TSC55 manual to add the same clause and avoid this debacle once and for all? As I am sure this is not going to be the end of this discussion.

It does not actually make sense to update the TSC manual with the same clause, for the following reason:

A riving knife should be the same thickness as the blade ('s kerf).

If the riving knife is narrower than the blade (using a 2.2 mm blade on an HK/HKC-55), the riving knife's benefits will be reduced because the material could still potentially close to a 1.8mm gap, pinching the blade.

If the riving knife is wider than the blade (using a 1.8 mm blade on a TS/TSC-55), the riving knife will not actually fit in the kerf left by the cut of the blade, and could bind and grab on the material or stop the saw altogether.

You're moving in two different directions, therefore the warning would not apply equally.

Exactly, I meant to say - have festool put similar verbiage in the older manual's, you described the problem succinctly and it should be in the manual at least as a warning, although we will not be here discussing this if everyone read the manuals/watched festool friday lives

 

[guybo]

hi you all do know that the ts55 first came with a 2.5 mm blade?,and then went to a2.2mm blade,also if you sharpen a blade the blades loses some of its kerf,yes it makes sense that the riving knife is smaller than the kerf by x.I just measured my ts55 vintage and readings from 2.15 to2.01. here is some food for thoughthttps://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/ts55-saw-blade-kerf-widths/msg27287/#msg27287https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/ts55-saw-blade-kerf-widths/msg27093/#msg27093

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I did get one of the Fan Editions. €476 including VAT, marker and tape measure and also a 1400 rail. Sold on the rail. Now I have to sell my older TS 55 EBQ in classic Systainer.  [big grin]

This was at the Dutch Toolstation. Other sellers were ~€30 lower, but without the 1400 rail...

Is the VAT a percentage-based thing in your country, or some kind of flat rate?
We don't have that here. We have sales tax, which varies by location. It's usually somewhere around  4-8%?

Isn't a percentage and a flat rate the same? It's 9% for things like food and some other stuff, 21% for everything else. It varies by country. Germany has 19%. All advertized prices are incl. VAT. So we don't have the American problems where you never know what the final price is gonna be because of some 8.25....% wasn't included on the sticker.

And then some things were excluded alltogether from VAT I think.

I got the TS 55 FEBQ, great saw!

The main difference from the TS 55 R is the blade width, 1.8 mm blade instead of 2.2 mm.

Which make it cut more faster and more effortless, at least that’s what they say  8)

/Bomba

Can you put the skinnier blade on the older style TS-55?

No it would conflict with the riving knife thickness

21%?!? seriously? That's way more than we pay. Food is taxed in an odd way here. If you sit down in a restaurant, you pay tax, if you take it to-go, you do not. It is not taxed at the grocery store either. Pretty much all other goods have sales tax, at least in the places that have that type of tax.  Some places don't have sales tax, but they usually have higher fees some other way.
No, a "flat tax" is not percentage based. Some things are taxed "per unit" regardless of the cost of that unit. Gasoline, it is taxed per gallon, not the dollar amount of that gallon. That is also one of the very few things we buy where the tax is already figured into the price. I think that is done mostly because the tax goes two different ways. Part goes to the state, part goes to the federal government.
Some people are also exempt from the sales tax too. Well not people, but businesses. Things that are purchased that will be either re-sold or made into something else and sold are not taxed. The tax is collected on that second sale.

I can't even imagine 21% tax though. That's amazing. Here it is 7.75%, but when I was a kid, it was 4%.

 

[squall_line]

I believe VAT is cumulative over the handling of the product, so it goes up each time and then the consumer covers the whole hog (but each step of the transaction from raw good through to retailer is responsible for paying it).

Also, while I understand the federalist reasons for each state having a different sales tax and for individual cities and counties having a different sales tax rate in the US, it sure would be nice to not have to worry about whether I'm spending 6, 7, 8, or even 12% above and beyond the final price of a good or service depending on from where I purchased it or which side of some invisible (or sometimes visible) jurisdictional boundary I was on.  Or worrying about tax evasion when some online retailers collect sales tax, some collect both only state but not local sales tax, and others don't collect either.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Yeah, the on-line retailer thing is a bit of a mess. The government can screw-up anything.
Initially, there was none, but they couldn't stand for that. Then, if I understand it right, if you could buy it locally, you had to pay the same tax as if you did, no matter where it came from. But if you were buying something unique, not available from anywhere else, you didn't. Now, I'm not sure how it works, but I guess that is the intent?

Some states have no sales tax, but they make it up with higher property taxes or vehicle registration fees, etc.

 

[peter halle]

Well, this thread has gone from talking about a special offering of a TS 55 to thinner blades and now on to sales taxes and VAT.

How about we try to curb our deviations?

Peter

 

[mino]

...
21%?!? seriously? That's way more than we pay....
...
I can't even imagine 21% tax though. That's amazing. Here it is 7.75%, but when I was a kid, it was 4%.

You just cannot compare it like this.

E.g. here we have unversal health care. Even if NOT employed AND not-seeking-employment /so not protected by state insurance/, so you have to pay your health insurance directly, it is about $100 per month. And that provides FULL coverge. No limits. If employed it is way more /about 15% gross income/ but still way lower than in US. And yes. The Health care level over here is generally comparable to US. Better at times, worse at times, but in the same ballpark.

Then we have universal "free" education. All the way to the UNI and post-doc. Again a LOT of $, er, CZK , goes there.

Also, we DO NOT have value-based property taxes. A yearly tax for a $1M 5000 sqf property over here is about $500  (about $1/square meter). That is a HUGE difference. It is enough a difference it is unheard here for people to have to sell their property after retiring. With minimum taxes a single retiree can cover the costs of a 2000 sqf appartment or house with ease - if owned.

So really, all that can be compared is the system of calculating the tax/price. Not the percentage values.

And even in that Coen is not entirely right:
Within the EU the taxes are different /there are 28 members using 10+ currencies/ so once EU versus US is compared, one can safely argue the US system is simpler actually. This is also why cross-border sales are way less than the US cross-state sales. It is just way more complicated.

/apologies for the OT/

 

[Coen]

That video does nothing for this topic.
He doesn't mention the riving knife concern at all, and then cuts such a thin sliver off the end of that work top that the test is irrelevant. The off-cut is bowing away from the cut line on it's own, more than enough for the marginally thicker riving knife. The story would likely be different on almost any other cut.

Yes the video is useless, as with many such videos.

hi you all do know that the ts55 first came with a 2.5 mm blade?,and then went to a2.2mm blade,also if you sharpen a blade the blades loses some of its kerf,yes it makes sense that the riving knife is smaller than the kerf by x.I just measured my ts55 vintage and readings from 2.15 to2.01. here is some food for thoughthttps://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/ts55-saw-blade-kerf-widths/msg27287/#msg27287https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/ts55-saw-blade-kerf-widths/msg27093/#msg27093

Yes. But I think the 48T blade was always 2.2? Sadly I threw out my old catalogus 2-3 years back. They definitely had 2-3 different kerf blades that later got all redone to the same 2.2mm. Prices of the older 2.2+ TS55 blades dropped bigtime back then. Never made sense to me why the different kerf blades existed to begin with.

For the CS50 there are still two different kerf blades; they are all 2.6mm, except the wood fine cut which is 2.4mm.
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/...ries/festool-ts-55-f-fan-edition/?action=post;quote=675037;last_msg=675054

I did get one of the Fan Editions. €476 including VAT, marker and tape measure and also a 1400 rail. Sold on the rail. Now I have to sell my older TS 55 EBQ in classic Systainer.  [big grin]

This was at the Dutch Toolstation. Other sellers were ~€30 lower, but without the 1400 rail...

Is the VAT a percentage-based thing in your country, or some kind of flat rate?
We don't have that here. We have sales tax, which varies by location. It's usually somewhere around  4-8%?

Isn't a percentage and a flat rate the same? It's 9% for things like food and some other stuff, 21% for everything else. It varies by country. Germany has 19%. All advertized prices are incl. VAT. So we don't have the American problems where you never know what the final price is gonna be because of some 8.25....% wasn't included on the sticker.

And then some things were excluded alltogether from VAT I think.

I got the TS 55 FEBQ, great saw!

The main difference from the TS 55 R is the blade width, 1.8 mm blade instead of 2.2 mm.

Which make it cut more faster and more effortless, at least that’s what they say  8)

/Bomba

Can you put the skinnier blade on the older style TS-55?

No it would conflict with the riving knife thickness

21%?!? seriously? That's way more than we pay. Food is taxed in an odd way here. If you sit down in a restaurant, you pay tax, if you take it to-go, you do not. It is not taxed at the grocery store either. Pretty much all other goods have sales tax, at least in the places that have that type of tax.  Some places don't have sales tax, but they usually have higher fees some other way.
No, a "flat tax" is not percentage based. Some things are taxed "per unit" regardless of the cost of that unit. Gasoline, it is taxed per gallon, not the dollar amount of that gallon. That is also one of the very few things we buy where the tax is already figured into the price. I think that is done mostly because the tax goes two different ways. Part goes to the state, part goes to the federal government.
Some people are also exempt from the sales tax too. Well not people, but businesses. Things that are purchased that will be either re-sold or made into something else and sold are not taxed. The tax is collected on that second sale.

I can't even imagine 21% tax though. That's amazing. Here it is 7.75%, but when I was a kid, it was 4%.

Ah yes, excise duty. We have that too on things like gasoline, liquor, tobacco. And then there is VAT over the excise duty. Mmmokey. [blink]

We get something in return for the taxes too; pretty good infrastructure, nice healthcare. It's not really that we are slaving under high tax while you guys enjoy a taxfree world or something. If you make it big, for sure... you are probably netting a higher % in the USA. But for everyone else it's not so bad here. The worry is in overpopulation, not the 21% VAT.

Also, even with the 21% VAT I still got the TS 55 F cheaper than you can find it anywhere in the USA, so about imagining things... 

I believe VAT is cumulative over the handling of the product, so it goes up each time and then the consumer covers the whole hog (but each step of the transaction from raw good through to retailer is responsible for paying it).

Also, while I understand the federalist reasons for each state having a different sales tax and for individual cities and counties having a different sales tax rate in the US, it sure would be nice to not have to worry about whether I'm spending 6, 7, 8, or even 12% above and beyond the final price of a good or service depending on from where I purchased it or which side of some invisible (or sometimes visible) jurisdictional boundary I was on.  Or worrying about tax evasion when some online retailers collect sales tax, some collect both only state but not local sales tax, and others don't collect either.

Well, if I go to German Amazon it shows me the price including the 19% VAT, but if I change shipping destination to within NL, it changes to the price including 21% VAT. Seems if that works here... you can get it there too, haha.

Technically you can mount a thinner blade on the saw designed for the thicker blade.  But just because it fits doesn't mean that it should be used in this configuration.  As has been said, that is not safe.  Festool USA had covered that point in one of their Friday Live events.

If you want to carry on and use it in the modified manner safely, just remove the plug-it cord and use it on a bookshelf as an expensive bookend.

Peter

This really made me think about this post:  https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/...chines-sans-riving-knife/msg664346/#msg664346

...
21%?!? seriously? That's way more than we pay....
...
I can't even imagine 21% tax though. That's amazing. Here it is 7.75%, but when I was a kid, it was 4%.

You just cannot compare it like this.

E.g. here we have unversal health care. Even if NOT employed AND not-seeking-employment /so not protected by state insurance/, so you have to pay your health insurance directly, it is about $100 per month. And that provides FULL coverge. No limits. If employed it is way more /about 15% gross income/ but still way lower than in US. And yes. The Health care level over here is generally comparable to US. Better at times, worse at times, but in the same ballpark.

Then we have universal "free" education. All the way to the UNI and post-doc. Again a LOT of $, er, CZK , goes there.

Also, we DO NOT have value-based property taxes. A yearly tax for a $1M 5000 sqf property over here is about $500  (about $1/square meter). That is a HUGE difference. It is enough a difference it is unheard here for people to have to sell their property after retiring. With minimum taxes a single retiree can cover the costs of a 2000 sqf appartment or house with ease - if owned.

So really, all that can be compared is the system of calculating the tax/price. Not the percentage values.

And even in that Coen is not entirely right:
Within the EU the taxes are different /there are 28 members using 10+ currencies/ so once EU versus US is compared, one can safely argue the US system is simpler actually. This is also why cross-border sales are way less than the US cross-state sales. It is just way more complicated.

/apologies for the OT/

Property taxes differ per member country. In NL you have to add a certain fake "rent value" to your income, which is then taxed at the marginal rate. Lets say €1M property, paid off; you have to add 0.45% of that to your taxable income. Also, local governments in NL tax over real estate too, in the range of 0.04-0.25% per year.

Either way; the NL "Supreme Court" ruled that fluoridated tap water doesn't qualify as drinking water, so while still legal to offer a 2nd pipe with it... the fluoride-free one still has to be supplied. Imagine that!  [cool]

The biggest nonsense in my view is the 2% tax on buying a used home. Nothing else on the used market is taxed like that...

To get slightly back on topic; there was a guy selling four of the TS 55 Fan Edition Systainers on the used market in NL. Lol!

 

[mino]

...
The biggest nonsense in my view is the 2% tax on buying a used home. Nothing else on the used market is taxed like that...
...

Actually, it is the best thing there is - /as long as there was no way to bypass this using shell companies/ - as reduces the liquidity of the properties which, in turn, stems the speculation market, housing bubbles etc. So in the end the money state collects here is "free" as it saves a lot of mess that happens otherwise /see below/:

Over here we had this tax too at 4%. And there were exceptions for long-term home owners /tax was not paid if house was owned for 5 years/. It was a flat for any property sale except a new-buy.

It was abolished 2yrs ago and what happened was this /as I expected/:
- first it resulted in happy buyers as they saved those 4%.
- within 3 months the property prices rose and "absorbed" those 4% /thus raising prices also for those who would be exempted, not just for speculators
- within a year there was a 20% (!!!) housing price level increase as speculators/investors poured into the market
- in general the market is now more volatile - i.e. a higher propensity for a boom-bust (with people then getting into negative equity on mortgages)

It is one of the few taxes which IMO should be even in the 5% range as they - total effect - actually lower the property prices. The problem is this does not work in markets where home ownership is not prevalent. Over here 80% people live "in their own" so the part of the market which can use shell companies to avoid this tax is pretty smallish. I believe in NL there is a bigger rate of rented housing which is business-owned so such a tax would have a less of an effect.

 

[Crispy]

As per original post, we have a Fan Edition available in Australia too.

Corded only - TS 55 FEBQ, with our without 1400 track, they are exactly the same price as non fan editions, ( 1249 and 1139) but have $80 of extra retail value with the included pencil and tape.

 

[semenza]

Well, this thread has gone from talking about a special offering of a TS 55 to thinner blades and now on to sales taxes and VAT.

How about we try to curb our deviations?

Peter

Seth